Silenthill4life

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Post by Silenthill4life on Sun Feb 15, 2015 2:03 am

Nachtwaechter wrote:
Silenthill4life wrote:Maybe it was the facial expression Charlie's corpse had when Murphy viewed his son's body?


Maybe, but I don't think that's very likely considering that the monsters' mouths all look quite different.

The Screamer's facial expression is relatively neutral as she has simply been cut from ear to ear...
REVEAL SPOILER
Image


Half of the Doll's face is gone, which makes it appear as if it was screaming...
REVEAL SPOILER
Image


Same goes for the Weeping Bat...
REVEAL SPOILER
Image


The Prisoner Minions/Juggernauts however appear to be sporting forced smiles.
REVEAL SPOILER
Image


Let's just assume all the monsters do have messed-up mouths for a symbolic reason. In that case, I think they all mean something different.

- The Screamer is humanoid in appearance and resembles a woman. When idle, it will sometimes rock its arms back and forth as if cradling an imaginary child. Its screams are so deafening that they stun Murphy. This is why I believe that this particular monster might represent Carol Pendleton, since accusing her husband of being responsible for the loss of their child is such a hurtful thing to do that the scream-based attacks seem rather appropriate.

- The Doll is most likely a metaphor for revenge. Much like fighting the Shadows, it ultimately doesn't solve anything. Instead, it is necessary to focus on the actual problem (the Doll/Murphy's guilt) in order to progress. Basically, it's the morgue cutscene in monster form. In that case, the distorted mouth most likely represents Murphy trying to justify himself ("I never hurt anybody who didn't deserve it.")

- The Weeping Bat seems to represent isolation. They are associated with dark, confined spaces and often appear or disappear out of nowhere. When idle, they also tend to look over their shoulders, making sure that nobody is approaching them. This is why they most likely represent prison life or solitary confinement. Perhaps their gaping mouths are inspired by abusive guards treating the prisoners like shit.

- The Prisoner Minions/Juggernauts are pretty much just random dudes with forced smiles. Considering that early concept art depicts them as clowns, their main theme seems to be ridicule. Personally, I think that this might apply to both Murphy and Cunningham. First of all, the Prisoner Minions/Juggernauts might be a representation of how Anne sees Murphy, similarly to the Bogeyman. Some of her dialogue ("You think this is funny, don't you?") seems to indicate that she may feel ridiculed by Murphy's presence. However, the Prisoner Minions/Juggernauts might also be Murphy's creations. Maybe he feels as if the justice system has failed him, and both enemies are a representation of Napier since he gets to stay alive in prison in spite of everything he did to Charlie.


Hey man, great post as usual!

You are right. Looking at the monsters' mouths individually (and the differences across them) suggest that each monster would have an individual significance to Murphy.

Do you mind me asking why Murphy appeared to have a sexual take on the doll when he first encounters it in the SH library?
He jokes using innuendo that "someone appears to have specific taste"

Would that imply that he was sexually frustrated following his estrangement from his wife?
 
 
 
 
 

Nachtwaechter

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Mouths of the enemies

Post by Nachtwaechter on Sun Feb 15, 2015 9:49 am

Silenthill4life wrote:Do you mind me asking why Murphy appeared to have a sexual take on the doll when he first encounters it in the SH library?
He jokes using innuendo that "someone appears to have specific taste"

Would that imply that he was sexually frustrated following his estrangement from his wife?


It's probably because Mr. Prison Man hasn't been around women in quite a while. I that case, I'm really happy that they didn't go all out with this particular theme. Everyone and their dog is sexually frustrated in Silent Hill. :lol:

It's more likely that some of the Dolls look rather... interesting because of Anne, though.
REVEAL SPOILER
Image

Judging by how Murphy and Anne seem to see a lot of the same monsters in exactly the same way, it appears as if they both equally contribute to some of their designs.
 
 
 
 
 
 

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Post by Silenthill4life on Sun Feb 15, 2015 9:57 am

Nachtwaechter wrote:
Silenthill4life wrote:Do you mind me asking why Murphy appeared to have a sexual take on the doll when he first encounters it in the SH library?
He jokes using innuendo that "someone appears to have specific taste"

Would that imply that he was sexually frustrated following his estrangement from his wife?


It's probably because Mr. Prison Man hasn't been around women in quite a while. I that case, I'm really happy that they didn't go all out with this particular theme. Everyone and their dog is sexually frustrated in Silent Hill. :lol:

It's more likely that some of the Dolls look rather... interesting because of Anne, though.
REVEAL SPOILER
Image

Judging by how Murphy and Anne seem to see a lot of the same monsters in exactly the same way, it appears as if they both equally contribute to some of their designs.


Do you think since Murphy and Anne see the same monsters in the fog world so too did Murphy and Sanchez, especially during that cutscene with the screamer?

Or would it still hold that the fogworld involves different people seeing different creatures?

(BTW I haven't read Anne's comic lol)
 
 
 
 
 

Nachtwaechter

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Post by Nachtwaechter on Sun Feb 15, 2015 10:21 am

Silenthill4life wrote:Do you think since Murphy and Anne see the same monsters in the fog world so too did Murphy and Sanchez, especially during that cutscene with the screamer?

Or would it still hold that the fogworld involves different people seeing different creatures?

(BTW I haven't read Anne's comic lol)


Not necessarily. I think Murphy and Anne see some of the same monsters because they go through many similar things, such as (some SPOILERS for the comics)
REVEAL SPOILER
Death of a family member, failing marriage due to said family member's condition/demise, desire for revenge etc.
.
The only thing we learn about Sanchez is that he's an obvious pervert/racist stereotype, but I think it's safe to say that he most likely has different... issues. If I'm not mistaken Anne doesn't see the Screamers either, so I don't think someone who seems to have even less in common with Murphy would be able to. I still believe that Sanchez sees them as a different kind of humanoid female monster, but who knows. Maybe he has a corpse fetish.

(Oh crap, sorry about that! I probably should have thought about that. :oops: )
 
 
 
 
 
 

Silenthill4life

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Post by Silenthill4life on Sun Feb 15, 2015 11:32 pm

Nachtwaechter wrote:
Silenthill4life wrote:Do you think since Murphy and Anne see the same monsters in the fog world so too did Murphy and Sanchez, especially during that cutscene with the screamer?

Or would it still hold that the fogworld involves different people seeing different creatures?

(BTW I haven't read Anne's comic lol)


Not necessarily. I think Murphy and Anne see some of the same monsters because they go through many similar things, such as (some SPOILERS for the comics)
REVEAL SPOILER
Death of a family member, failing marriage due to said family member's condition/demise, desire for revenge etc.
.
The only thing we learn about Sanchez is that he's an obvious pervert/racist stereotype, but I think it's safe to say that he most likely has different... issues. If I'm not mistaken Anne doesn't see the Screamers either, so I don't think someone who seems to have even less in common with Murphy would be able to. I still believe that Sanchez sees them as a different kind of humanoid female monster, but who knows. Maybe he has a corpse fetish.

(Oh crap, sorry about that! I probably should have thought about that. :oops: )


Hey thanks for the clarification!
Appreciate it!
 
 
 
 
 

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Post by Otherworld on Tue Feb 17, 2015 10:02 am

It seemed like Sanchez thought he was fighting something else for sure. As the Screamer is specifically Murphy's monster.

The Screamer represents Carol Pendleton.



It is another example of two people seeing something different in the same place at the same time in the otherworld.

Sanchez is beating the crap out of it until Murphy arrives and with one swipe it kills Sanchez. Obviously it has become something much more dangerous than what Sanchez was fighting once Murphy arrives.
Image
 
 
 
 
 

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Post by Borg on Tue Feb 17, 2015 1:28 pm

I don't think that was the case, Sanchez was simply distracted by Murphy.
 
 
 
 
 
 

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Post by Otherworld on Tue Feb 17, 2015 2:36 pm

Our opinions differ as I do think that was the case. The Screamer has nothing to do with Sanchez.....
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Post by Borg on Tue Feb 17, 2015 3:22 pm

Nothing unusual about people encountering monsters that belong to someone else.
 
 
 
 
 
 

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Post by Otherworld on Tue Feb 17, 2015 3:34 pm

Except when those monsters are derived by somebody else's subconscious .......

It cannot be compared to SH1, SH3, SH4.or HC. As there is no external being or pact projecting its/their power over Murphy.
Last edited by Otherworld on Tue Feb 17, 2015 3:57 pm.
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Post by Borg on Tue Feb 17, 2015 3:56 pm

Nope, James saw Angela's monsters.

There's nothing indicating Sanchez seeing something different.
 
 
 
 
 
 

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Post by Otherworld on Tue Feb 17, 2015 4:07 pm

devil hunter wrote:Nope, James saw Angela's monsters.


This happens much further into his journey when he has gathered a good amount of knowledge about her plight.

devil hunter wrote:There's nothing indicating Sanchez seeing something different.


BoLM quote:

The power of Silent Hill absorbs what people hold in their hearts and manifests delusions and elements of their subconscious minds.


There is no external being or pact projecting its/their power over Murphy or Sanchez.
Like what is seen in SH1, SH3, SH4, or HC.

Sanchez doesn't have the slightest clue about Murphy's plight.

So how could Sanchez' subconscious mind manifest a Screamer ?
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Post by Borg on Tue Feb 17, 2015 4:50 pm

Why would Angela's monsters appear to James just because he understands her plight?

Why do Alex's monsters appear to others? They haven o idea about his journey.

What would Sanchez' monster be?
 
 
 
 
 
 

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Post by Otherworld on Tue Feb 17, 2015 4:59 pm

devil hunter wrote:Why would Angela's monsters appear to James just because he understands her plight?


Perception.
- the ability to see, hear, or become aware of something through the senses.
- the state of being or process of becoming aware of something through the senses.
- a way of regarding, understanding, or interpreting something; a mental impression.


And point of view.

- a particular attitude or way of considering a matter.

- the position from which something or someone is observed



devil hunter wrote:Why do Alex's monsters appear to others? They haven no idea about his journey.


The pact made to protect the entire town was broken...... Everybody sees monsters because of this.

devil hunter wrote:What would Sanchez' monster be?


No idea .....

BoLM quote:

As for the otherworld that appears in the series, the town is not merely showing the characters their nightmares, but actually manifesting elements of their unconscious minds.
Image
 
 
 
 
 

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Post by Silenthill4life on Tue Feb 17, 2015 11:09 pm

I agree very much that the screamer is a reflection of Carol Pendleton. Both Nachwaechter and Otherworld seem to have substantiated this very well.

Maybe Sanchez did have an inkling of Murphy's plight because on the bus trip he is taunting Murphy over what he allegedly did.

Also what do you guys think about the scene at the radio station where Murphy, Anne and DJ Bobby Ricks gets jumped on by screamers.
Do you think they saw something different?

Does Anne see screamers in the comics?
 
 
 
 
 

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Post by Borg on Wed Feb 18, 2015 5:04 am

Otherworld wrote:No idea ....


And that's what makes the whole idea completely pointless.

Silenthill4life wrote:Also what do you guys think about the scene at the radio station where Murphy, Anne and DJ Bobby Ricks gets jumped on by screamers.
Do you think they saw something different?


I think they all saw the same thing. There's no reason that wouldn't be the case and there's even less reason for them to see something different.

Silenthill4life wrote:Does Anne see screamers in the comics?


I think someone said she doesn't encounter any Screamers. However she encounters Dolls and I think they look the same which completely destroys the "they see different things, they don't see the same monsters" theory.
 
 
 
 
 
 

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Post by Silenthill4life on Wed Feb 18, 2015 8:04 am

devil hunter wrote:
Silenthill4life wrote:Also what do you guys think about the scene at the radio station where Murphy, Anne and DJ Bobby Ricks gets jumped on by screamers.
Do you think they saw something different?


I think they all saw the same thing. There's no reason that wouldn't be the case and there's even less reason for them to see something different.


I thought so too but the only problem is that this idea doesn't fit well with Laura being in the fog world of SH2 without encountering any monsters.
Laura seems perfectly safe being in the fog world, therefore if the monsters were common for people in the fog world (as it appears to be for Murphy, Anne and DJ Bobby Ricks) then it should be too for Laura.

Shouldn't she see what James sees in the fog world?
 
 
 
 
 

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Post by Otherworld on Wed Feb 18, 2015 9:29 am

devil hunter wrote:
Otherworld wrote:No idea ....


And that's what makes the whole idea completely pointless.


This is your only reply ?

Talk about posting something completely pointless .........

devil hunter wrote:I think someone said she doesn't encounter any Screamers.


The monsters that invade the radio station in the comic have the general look of the Screamers. Not exactly the same but they are "screaming" when they "crash the party".

Once a creature makes an appearance/is manifested by the towns power, regardless of who or why it's created for or by, the town chooses where and when to use it next. And in what form for that matter. This is seen in the recurrence of nurses, bugs, mini Abstract Daddies, PH, etc ....

In fact Anne encounters nurses as well in the comic.

But when Sanchez engages with the first monster Murphy shows up afterwards .....

Sanchez is completely surprised that the thing he was fighting and kicking the crap out of had all of the sudden become a lot more dangerous and he lost his life because of it. Sanchez seems like the type with a lot of street smarts so it seems unlikely that he would be surprised the way he is.

devil hunter wrote:However she encounters Dolls and I think they look the same which completely destroys the "they see different things, they don't see the same monsters" theory.
.

Really .... ???

Image

It seems like things are pretty much intact here .........

Silenthill4life wrote: I thought so too but the only problem is that this idea doesn't fit well with Laura being in the fog world of SH2 without encountering any monsters.
Laura seems perfectly safe being in the fog world, therefore if the monsters were common for people in the fog world (as it appears to be for Murphy, Anne and DJ Bobby Ricks) then it should be too for Laura.

Shouldn't she see what James sees in the fog world?


I tend to interpret this in a sense that, separately, or at the same time, individuals on their own, or a general consensus collectively as a group ( cult ) or communally ( societal views as a whole ) can be manifested from the subconscious mind all at the same time.

So in a sense, in the otherworld you can see what I see ..... and you cannot see what I see depending on the situation. Because we equally share views and at the same time we may have completely different opinions and outlooks on things as far as morality ( etc ) as our own individual experiences shape our perceptions and point of view about things.
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Post by Borg on Wed Feb 18, 2015 12:33 pm

Otherworld wrote:
This is your only reply ?

Talk about posting something completely pointless .........


OK, imagine if James encounters Eddie watching some hideous monster that looks like a butterfly/mermaid/deer/thing. Both James and him comment how weird it is and move on.

That thing is never mentioned again, nor is it ever again encountered. Therefore, it's completely pointless. It doesn't affect anything, doesn't tie into the themes of the game etc.

You couldn't explain why Eddie would see something like that, nor would you explain if it means something for James. When you encountered Angela and Eddie and saw the things in their Otherworld, the monsters etc. those made sense, that is, they could've been explained. We can explain them because of the things we found out about those two. They make sense in the context of their character and the overall themes etc. of the game.

Eddie encountering something like that doesn't mean anything.

Why did I write all that? Because I'm trying to illustrate why it's pointless that Sanchez saw something different. We don't learn much about him, we don't ever see what he probably saw and it doesn't mean anything when it comes to the themes etc. of the game.

OK, Sanchez saw something different, died because of that. The end. We can't find out what he saw, we can't make theories and we can't see any symbolism etc.

That trully added much to the game, didn't it?

There's simply no evidence that he saw something different and even if he did see something different can you see how pointless it is?

Murphy seeing Sanchez beating up a woman (what he thinks is a woman at least) and trying to stop him, but then the woman turns out to be actually a monster ties into things in the game. It's actually relevant. Like how Anne thought Murphy killed her dad.

A big misunderstanding. That's what works and means something.

Otherworld wrote:Once a creature makes an appearance/is manifested by the towns power, regardless of who or why it's created for or by, the town chooses where and when to use it next. And in what form for that matter. This is seen in the recurrence of nurses, bugs, mini Abstract Daddies, PH, etc ....


That proves people can see what others see even when it's not a Walter/Alessa scenario.

Otherworld wrote:In fact Anne encounters nurses as well in the comic.


You mean, Dolls?

REVEAL SPOILER
[imghttp://upload-pictures.de/bild.php/79526,latestcb20141113184605QDFDQ.png][/img]

Doll doesn't look much different to her. That either means that both designs work for both Anne and Murphy or the monster is exclusive for one of them but the other just so happens to encounter them (like James with Abstract Daddies).


Otherworld wrote:But when Sanchez engages with the first monster Murphy shows up afterwards .....

Sanchez is completely surprised that the thing he was fighting and kicking the crap out of had all of the sudden become a lot more dangerous and he lost his life because of it. Sanchez seems like the type with a lot of street smarts so it seems unlikely that he would be surprised the way he is.


I think you remembered the cutscene wrong because that's not what happens. I watched the cutscene again and here's what happens:

Murphy sees Sanchez beating someone up. He grabs Sanchez and pins him to the wall. Sanchez gets himself free and pins Murphy to the wall. He tries to tell him how he doesn't understand then Screamer slashes his throat.

Sure, Sanchez does turn to look at the Screamer before he gets slashed but that happens in a second. Clearly he was occupied with Murphy that he didn't notice the Screamer got up before it was too late.

There's nothing in the cutscene indicating Sanchez was surprised because Screamer became stronger or anything, I don't know how you can see confusion or anything other on his face that indicates that's how it is because it all happens in a second.



Otherworld wrote:Really .... ???

Image

It seems like things are pretty much intact here .........


That's a bad example. Bogeyman is a monster which symbolizes a monster. The whole point of him is that he can look differently to people (they both see the same Bogeyman because of similar circumstances). He can be manifested as a monster AND someone can see a regular human being as a monster.

That's the whole point. It symbolizes how we demonize people, see evil inside them, we see them as monsters, what we think they are.

So, just because there's a monster which functions in that way doesn't mean that James saw Abstract Daddy while Angela saw her father (her regular normal looking human being father), it doesn't mean that Murphy saw a Screamer and that Snachez saw some different (unknown to us) monster etc.

Silenthill4life wrote: I thought so too but the only problem is that this idea doesn't fit well with Laura being in the fog world of SH2 without encountering any monsters.
Laura seems perfectly safe being in the fog world, therefore if the monsters were common for people in the fog world (as it appears to be for Murphy, Anne and DJ Bobby Ricks) then it should be too for Laura.

Shouldn't she see what James sees in the fog world?


Though, Laura is innocent and she doesn't see scary things nor any monsters. She's an exception to the rule and I think she is the only example of something like that happening in the series.

It would kind of defeat the whole purpose if she was monsters that could kill her etc.
 
 
 
 
 
 

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Post by Otherworld on Wed Feb 18, 2015 2:01 pm

devil hunter wrote:
Otherworld wrote:
This is your only reply ?

Talk about posting something completely pointless .........


OK, imagine if James encounters Eddie watching some hideous monster that looks like a butterfly/mermaid/deer/thing. Both James and him comment how weird it is and move on.

That thing is never mentioned again, nor is it ever again encountered. Therefore, it's completely pointless. It doesn't affect anything, doesn't tie into the themes of the game etc.

You couldn't explain why Eddie would see something like that, nor would you explain if it means something for James. When you encountered Angela and Eddie and saw the things in their Otherworld, the monsters etc. those made sense, that is, they could've been explained. We can explain them because of the things we found out about those two. They make sense in the context of their character and the overall themes etc. of the game.

Eddie encountering something like that doesn't mean anything.

Why did I write all that? Because I'm trying to illustrate why it's pointless that Sanchez saw something different. We don't learn much about him, we don't ever see what he probably saw and it doesn't mean anything when it comes to the themes etc. of the game.

OK, Sanchez saw something different, died because of that. The end. We can't find out what he saw, we can't make theories and we can't see any symbolism etc.

That trully added much to the game, didn't it?

There's simply no evidence that he saw something different and even if he did see something different can you see how pointless it is?


I can understand where you are coming from. You are saying that in the grand scheme of things you believe it really makes no difference.

Understood.

But the overall "grand scheme of things" is much bigger than Downpour itself.

Silent Hills power has existed for centuries. Long before Downpour and long after the events in the game. So, in a way, I am looking at things from a much broader view.

That's all.

devil hunter wrote:Murphy seeing Sanchez beating up a woman (what he thinks is a woman at least) and trying to stop him, but then the woman turns out to be actually a monster ties into things in the game. It's actually relevant. Like how Anne thought Murphy killed her dad.

A big misunderstanding. That's what works and means something.


Agreed.

But I am not just looking at the relevance of that just small one moment. I am looking at it in the perspective of the overall constituent of the otherworld itself.

devil hunter wrote:
Otherworld wrote:Once a creature makes an appearance/is manifested by the towns power, regardless of who or why it's created for or by, the town chooses where and when to use it next. And in what form for that matter. This is seen in the recurrence of nurses, bugs, mini Abstract Daddies, PH, etc ....


That proves people can see what others see even when it's not a Walter/Alessa scenario.


Yup, I never argued against this.

devil hunter wrote:
Otherworld wrote:In fact Anne encounters nurses as well in the comic.


You mean, Dolls?

REVEAL SPOILER
[imghttp://upload-pictures.de/bild.php/79526,latestcb20141113184605QDFDQ.png][/img]

Doll doesn't look much different to her. That either means that both designs work for both Anne and Murphy or the monster is exclusive for one of them but the other just so happens to encounter them (like James with Abstract Daddies).


Nope, I mean nurses. I own all 4 comics.

devil hunter wrote:
Otherworld wrote:But when Sanchez engages with the first monster Murphy shows up afterwards .....

Sanchez is completely surprised that the thing he was fighting and kicking the crap out of had all of the sudden become a lot more dangerous and he lost his life because of it. Sanchez seems like the type with a lot of street smarts so it seems unlikely that he would be surprised the way he is.


I think you remembered the cutscene wrong because that's not what happens. I watched the cutscene again and here's what happens:

Murphy sees Sanchez beating someone up. He grabs Sanchez and pins him to the wall. Sanchez gets himself free and pins Murphy to the wall. He tries to tell him how he doesn't understand then Screamer slashes his throat.

Sure, Sanchez does turn to look at the Screamer before he gets slashed but that happens in a second. Clearly he was occupied with Murphy that he didn't notice the Screamer got up before it was too late.

There's nothing in the cutscene indicating Sanchez was surprised because Screamer became stronger or anything, I don't know how you can see confusion or anything other on his face that indicates that's how it is because it all happens in a second.


If Sanchez knew how dangerous the Screamer was he would have never been surprised in the first place. Sanchez was handling things pretty well before Murphy shows up.

devil hunter wrote:
Otherworld wrote:Really .... ???

Image

It seems like things are pretty much intact here .........


That's a bad example. Bogeyman is a monster which symbolizes a monster. The whole point of him is that he can look differently to people (they both see the same Bogeyman because of similar circumstances). He can be manifested as a monster AND someone can see a regular human being as a monster.

That's the whole point. It symbolizes how we demonize people, see evil inside them, we see them as monsters, what we think they are.

So, just because there's a monster which functions in that way doesn't mean that James saw Abstract Daddy while Angela saw her father (her regular normal looking human being father), it doesn't mean that Murphy saw a Screamer and that Snachez saw some different (unknown to us) monster etc.


Oh I think this example works out just fine.

Your reply has an awful lot to do about perception and point of view as well as an understanding between the two characters don't you think ?

i will post this again.

I tend to interpret this in a sense that, separately, or at the same time, individuals on their own, or a general consensus collectively as a group ( cult ) or communally ( societal views as a whole ) can be manifested from the subconscious mind all at the same time.

So in a sense, in the otherworld you can see what I see ..... and you cannot see what I see depending on the situation. Because we equally share views and at the same time we may have completely different opinions and outlooks on things as far as morality ( etc ) as our own individual experiences shape our perceptions and point of view about things.
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