This is not Silent Hill

[keeps]

It really is possible that you could just like the games you like and ignore the ones you don't. Especially when a series is most of an entire decade past the point where you stopped liking it, behaving the way you do is pointless and annoying to those of us who are still interested in the evolution of the series. It's even more irritating that you still insist on there being objective reasons justifying your preferences, and then take on a condescending attitude toward those who dispute this obviously incorrect statement.

this

[Wren]

Um, twin victims are not asian.

siamiese is asian

Uh.. Is that a joke?

I sincerely doubt it. *sigh*

[TeamSilent4Life]

Wiki: 'The creature appears to be a large set of sleeping Siamiese twin'
Wiki: 'Siamiese commonly refers to the Thai language
Thai is Asia.

[rollerfan222]

Wiki: 'The creature appears to be a large set of sleeping Siamiese twin'
Wiki: 'Siamiese commonly refers to the Thai language
Thai is Asia.

The word may be from asian Origins, but Siamese twins are not "asian". It's a genetic condition if im correct.
Correct me if im wrong.

[EsoArt]

'What's' argument is very weak though. Do not confuse the strength of a conviction with the strength of an argument.

My argument was:

1. The Silent Hill Series is a Psychological Horror series.
2. Psychological horror aims to create discomfort by exposing common or universal psychological vulnerabilities and fears
3. Silent Hill Downpour did not tap into enough common or universal psychological vulnerabilities
Conclusion: Silent Hill Downpour failed as a part of the Silent Hill series

The first two premises (1 and 2) are almost definitional and are very difficult to refute. If you even want a chance of beating my argument it is really the third premise that you have to attack. Running the subjective argument has its limits because it either winds up in tautological statements that are of no value OR is just nonsensical because we can just clarify our claims concerning common fears with data, for example the following list which surveyed 10,000 people from 20+ countries (http://www.saviodsilva.net/top-10-fears-phobias-ten-common.htm).

There are a few such lists around, with some degree of shake up, but they are all roughly the same and there are not too many surprises on the list. Downpour doesn't fail completely to show on the list, although one of the design choices to focus on storms may not be a good fear choice because the over representation of that on phobia lists is due to children being scared. As children are not the target audience, the amount of players with this fear is somewhat diminished. Still, though, not a bad choice and at least it is a fear. You can argue further about whether Downpour used storms effectively, but that is not what I am really debating here and that is much more vague a concept.

Let's take ONE AREA from Silent Hill 1 and combine it with that list. I was playing the game a few minutes ago and I am at the hospital. Now one area, I am not even talking the whole hospital but rather just one loaded area, contained the following fears:

REVEAL SPOILER

2. Fear of Heights (the floor has given out, darkness beneath)
5. Fear of Darkness and Dark Places (obvious)
6. Fear of Not being able to Escape (doors all locked behind me, which was creepy)
11. Fear of Small Confined Spaces
16. Fear of Getting Hurt (we're used to this in games though)
17. Fear of Losing Good Health (the infection/parasite on the doctors and the implication of what happened to Alessa)
21. Fear of Ghosts
24. Fear of Death (we're used to this in games though)
27. Fear of Needles (the doctors weapons are syringes)
41. Fear of Being Alone (cybils dead, lisa's dead, cheryl's missing)
59. Fear of Blood (the walls are 'kind of' coated in it)
62. Fear of Being Abused (the implication is that the hospital staff abused Alessa?)
81. Fear of Doctors
93. Fear of Haunted Places
101. Fear of Nurses
106. Fear of Sharp or Pointed Objects

Downpour just did not do that as well. I cannot even find a good, charitable example in Downpour that can hold a candle to that and I would not even say that was the peak of Silent Hill 1. A giant red vortex is not a common fear. Sure, you might get some people who have an inbuilt fear of that for some reason, but its not common. For those people it might have been the greatest horror game of all time and I am not refuting that. However, those people can surely also say that their fear is not common and that they are unsurprised that other people did not find it particularly intimidating. In much the same way that someone who loves sharks may not have found Jaws an even vaguely scary or unsettling film can see why it might scare other people because people tend to be afraid of Sharks, being attacked in water, darkness (the night scene in jaws has got to be one of the better scenes).

Many of the people here are acting as though my critique is really unfair but if you think about it its actually a very sensible one. It just boils down to: tap into more common psychological vunerabilities.

Edit: Yeah I know, I really do have to give up with this argument heh.

[devil hunter]

Is it really worth it to write so much just so people will agree with your opinion?

Besides, there's only so much you can do with "common" stuff before it gets old. They should try new things, I don't wanna see same stuff all the time.

The word may be from asian Origins, but Siamese twins are not "asian". It's a genetic condition if im correct.
Correct me if im wrong.

Yes, siamese twins are identical twins whose bodies are joined.

[Q. Valintyne]

Many of the people here are acting as though my critique is really unfair but if you think about it its actually a very sensible one. It just boils down to: tap into more common psychological vunerabilities.

Ah yes... because the more you say the same things over and over again, the more we'll tend to agree with you.

No one is saying that any one of your arguments or critiques are invalid, dude. Seriously. Critiques themselves are subjective to a person's opinion. Sure you can establish a criteria, but one is not going to judge things the same way.

I haven't played Downpour in a while, but I can draw examples of each one of those fears from various aspects of the game:

REVEAL SPOILER

2. Fear of Heights (the clock scene in particular)
5. Fear of Darkness and Dark Places ("obvious")
6. Fear of Not being able to Escape (the doors close behind you; your run from the freaking Void with various paths closing before you)
11. Fear of Small Confined Spaces (one Otherworld sequence features a seemingly shrinking room if I remember correctly)
16. Fear of Getting Hurt ("we're used to this in games.")
17. Fear of Losing Good Health (drowning is not in "good health")
21. Fear of Ghosts (even though there were no "ghosts" in the first Silent Hill, many side-quests in Downpour have paranormal implications)
24. Fear of Death ("we're used to this in games though")
27. Fear of Needles (The Screamers have needles [nails] for fingers, the Wall Corpses are impaled by stakes)
41. Fear of Being Alone (You're in Silent Hill. That's a given. Murphy's also divorced and you know, his son kinda died.)
59. Fear of Blood (it's everywhere. Remember that scene where it seeps underneath a door? Creepy.)
62. Fear of Being Abused (prisoners could both abuse and be abused. Try to fight a Juggernaut and tell me you don't get your ass abused)
81. Fear of Doctors (If you read the memos, there are plenty of creepy implications about lobotomies and other fun stuff like that)
93. Fear of Haunted Places (once again, side-quests)
101. Fear of Nurses (this may be the only one not seen in Downpour [only to escape the cliche of nurse overuse in the series])
106. Fear of Sharp or Pointed Objects (refer to my above section on needles)

See? That wasn't so hard. I think you stretched the truth a little to find all of those in a singular screen in Silent Hill, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.

Those fears are established over surveys. Some people are afraid to even admit some fears anonymously. I know some people that are deathly afraid of swimming, but would never admit to it out loud. I know some others who are afraid of driving. There is no such thing as a universal fear that will scare everyone. Can you get a lot of them with bugs or creepy lookin' shit? Sure. There's no way to scare everyone with the same thing... except maybe a jump scare.

[devil hunter]

@QValintyne don't forget

REVEAL SPOILER

Fear of Not being able to Escape - when you're running from the Void for the first time the hallway extends couple of times, it seems like Murphy is running in place.

Fear of Ghosts- not just implications, you are fighting a ghost in one side quest, the gramophone one, the place where you fight against him is also a haunted place

[what]

My argument is who died and appointed you to be the definitive voice of Silent Hill, to continue to insist that your own personal views of what Silent Hill is about and what makes one entry or another correct are universal truth.

Perhaps take a moment to consider that, for some, the horror element is not the most important draw to them. Stop and ponder how people might not appreciate someone having the audacity to claim authority over interpretation and delivering his intellectually offensive diatribe in such condescending tones.

[TeamSilent4Life]

u have to look at it from a modern perspective. Survival horror is not as raw as it was back then. The 90s was an age were taboo was more accepted & horror was at its most popular. From a modern perspective DP succeeds in provoking fear from the player. Bit too brightly coloured at times but succeeds nevertheless.

[EsoArt]

The horror is really the selling point of the series though. Its a horror game, specifically psychological horror.

Its not like I am saying, "oh, the cult must be in this game or it is wrong" or anything like that. Its just kind of crippling for a horror game not to be scary to enough members of its audience.

It is possible the series could take some other direction, though not sure why we need to call it Silent Hill then really. People just expect the psychological horror and if you don't deliver on that front to a large portion of players the game just fails. I just think you are trying to be overly positive for some weird reason, its weird, kind of like how all those Dark Knight fans got upset when Dark Knight Rises got a bad review from a critic who saw an advanced screening despite the fact that the fans had not even seen the film.

[TeamSilent4Life]

I totally get were ur coming from, in fact I vented this myself in my OP. But times have changed. U should be grateful its retained its survival horror monica. It could have easily stuck two fingers up & done a RES & Dead space on us & added co-op, cover & all the other bs at us. Hopefully this will provide a platform for the next SH to be a truly memorable one .

[Q. Valintyne]

The horror is really the selling point of the series though. Its a horror game, specifically psychological horror.

I'd call it survival horror. Downpour still fits that descriptor. Some people were still scared by the game psychologically. Here's a line from Official Xbox Magazine's review:

[The] effective mix of psychological scares and freaky encounters make Downpour a worthwhile trip."

Of course that's the reviewer's opinion, but so is what we're all saying.

It is possible the series could take some other direction, though not sure why we need to call it Silent Hill then really.

Maybe because it would still take place in the same location/universe...? Similar things have been done with games in the series like Shattered Memories, SH: Arcade, and Book of Memories. Sure those are "spin-offs," but they're still blanketed by the Silent Hill moniker. Regardless of "canon opinions or facts," the SH universe is still being represented.

I just think you are trying to be overly positive for some weird reason, its weird, kind of like how all those Dark Knight fans got upset when Dark Knight Rises got a bad review from a critic who saw an advanced screening despite the fact that the fans had not even seen the film.

Overly positive? Just because we're not nitpicking every fault of every game doesn't mean that it's golden. There are a number of technical flaws and plot holes in Downpour... but was it enjoyable? Yes. Yes it was. Was I totally scared by all of it? No. No I wasn't.

If a game is nicely written and executed, the amount of "scares" really isn't important to me. It may be for others, but I feel if you have a game full of cheap horror with a shitty story, the longevity of the title would be shortened indefinitely.

And your Batman comparison is a little too loose. I'd compare this to the Mass Effect fiasco (seeing as fans reacted harshly to playing the ending of the game). The Dark Knight issue was a tad different; it was the first truly negative review the film saw and it sparked a crazy uprising of fans that were passionate about the series. That incident is not unlike some of the criticism IGN received for giving Downpour a poor review. The difference there is Downpour had already been released (if I'm not mistaken) and fans had already had a chance to play the game and form their own opinion. The Dark Knight Rises had a lot of blind optimism leading up to its release and it only truly delivered to certain fans. I've seen both extremes: people that are completely crazy about it and people who think it's the worst Batman film ever made.

TL, DR: They're all opinions.

[keeps]

it's immature and foolish to force your disordered preconceptions on people

the series really has got it good and is still being given such a chance

it could be so actually bad

[WhiteClaudia]

^Agreed

Ive been hovering over this thread for sometime. All Im gonna say is, the older ganes were good and the newer games are good. I think they are all equallyas scary and contribute to survival horror, ESPECIALLY Downpour. Anyone who disagrees with me, we'll agree to disagree cause Ive said what I wanted.

[EsoArt]

Its not really immature and foolish and they aren't preconceptions. The human population collectively shares many fears. Psychological horror digs into those fears. Downpour failed to do this and it is my contention that this is why it seems to have sold relatively poorly. The exact sales figures do not seem to be released but it certainly is not selling like Silent Hill 2, we can say that easily enough and Silent Hill 2 was selling primarily on the reputation of the first. What did people like about the first game? Psychological horror: the game got under people's skin.

I bought Silent Hill 1 on the strength of the demo. It was crazily scary, wanted a horror game, bought it. Seemingly, a lot of other people agreed and it had nothing to do with the cult, plots or anything like that. If you want the games to compete on other features such as gameplay...good luck! A lot of competition out there now.

Edit: I think one of the things I am trying to get across is that you are allowed to like something and also realize why it wasn't that good or you are allowed to dislike things but acknowledge that they are good. I kind of realize why Jean-luc Godard films are good, but I don't like them that much personally. I don't really like Jazz music, but I can kind of take guesses at what is bad and good jazz music (very loosely admittedly).

In terms of my criticism of Downpour and such I am basically trying to give a more in depth explanation that Yahtzee started in his review as to why it just wasn't scary enough.

[NarooN]

I like Yahtzee, but I don't take too much of what he says seriously anyway since it's just an act. One of his favorite games of all time is SH2, and he brings it up in some way for every horror game he reviews. I think he reviewed Origins & HC and I recall him speaking of the massive boner he has for SH2 and how no game will ever live up to it, etc. etc.

Not scary enough for you guys maybe. I stopped playing games like this to be scared ages ago since I got desensitized to a lot of it. I play for the experience and mindfucks, as well as story nowadays. I wouldn't deduct points from the game for not scaring me as that's virtually impossible now, but that's just me.

[what]

Edit: I think one of the things I am trying to get across is that you are allowed to like something and also realize why it wasn't that good or you are allowed to dislike things but acknowledge that they are good. I kind of realize why Jean-luc Godard films are good, but I don't like them that much personally. I don't really like Jazz music, but I can kind of take guesses at what is bad and good jazz music (very loosely admittedly).

And, what I've been trying to get across is that 'good' and 'bad' are not terms you can objectively apply to works of fiction. You also make assumptions both about what is scary, and what people want in a horror game. Assumptions and assumptions and assumptions. It's as if you cannot reconcile yourself to the fact that your opinion isn't worth more than anyone else's.

According to your own criteria, Silent Hill 2 should have completely bombed. You'll find few fans who consider it to be scary relative to other Silent Hill games, and none of the themes expressed are the simple sort of fears everyone can relate to. I've seen enough crackpot analyses of the characters and their motivations to be sure that many people have no clue what it is like to deal with terminal illness, depression, the stigma of obesity, or sexual assault. The monsters are innately derived from James' very specific mental state.

Nor can anyone call the first game's symbolism 'deep' with a straight face. What's so deep about the monsters? Almost all of them are simply representations of Alessa's childhood fears. She was afraid of dogs and bugs and nurses and adults children and pterodactyls and pretty much everything ever, I guess. There's nothing deep or substantial about that. It's totally straightforward. Nor can you really say these are fears everyone experiences, because I'm not afraid of any of these things and you're not likely to find any individual who has an honest fear of more than one or two of them.

So, what is something almost everyone can be afraid of? Why, it's the one element every game in the series shares unequivocally: If you woke up one morning and found yourself in a world where the laws of physics were arbitrary and where stuff buried in your own mind, or in someone else's, can manifest and threaten you with death or madness, chances are you'd be confused and terrified. There can be no feeling of safety because you can't count on any consistency. Anything can change at any time, and there is no limit to how nightmarish and grotesque and dangerous it can get. You can't escape, and you can't hide. That is what makes Silent Hill games scary for everyone. And every Silent Hill game makes this element central to its story and characters.

[devil hunter]

Excellent post what

It seems to me like Eso tries too hard to shove his opinion down our throats.

Downpour certainly didn't sold poorly because of "lack of psychological horror" and psychological horror alone is certainly not what made people love the first game.

EDIT: I might add one more "subjectivity" example. I bet most of us here watched one movie called Event Horizon. I also bet people are aware that it had some of its content cut because test audiences found it too scary. That's subjective opinion, some people don't find it scary.



Those are some of the deleted scenes, some people found that scary, some didn't.

[TeamSilent4Life]

Movies don't do anything for me. To me they're just actors moving from role to role. Like Morgan Freeman for example. The amount of movies hes been in I can no longer take him seriously when hes potraying a scientist or watever in Batman. Gaming is superior to any other medium as an artform imo.