How can 0rigins even be considered canon?

[murphdaycake]

I talk about it with my SH fan friends off-internet a lot, but I want to get this opinion out on here too.

I didn't realize it until after I beat the game, but goddamn are their so many contradictions to SH1 and to ITSELF in SH0. If anybody has any explanations to these asinine contradictions, please let me know.

1. Alessa's soul split DURING the ritual in SH1, so why is the soul split a completely separate ritual in SH0?

2. Why would the cult even WANT to split Alessa's soul when it could ruin their plan? (which is the reason why Alessa split her soul herself!!)

3. Why is there a random Alessa running around Silent Hill in 0rigins when, according to the game, Alessa's soul doesn't split until the end? By that logic, a burned Alessa is just chillin' in a hospital somewhere and there's an Alessa clone running around for no reason. How is that even possible?

4. (This one I didn't even realize until I watched TRSHE) Why does Alessa say "Let me burn?" and then help Travis escape? By the logic of SH1, this would make sense: Alessa was trying to save Travis, not herself, because she is a caring soul. But by the logic of SH0, it doesn't make sense, because Alessa (for whatever reason) is filled with wrath in 0rigins, and her random clone sends the Otherworld on the town in one scene in an act of rage and revenge.

Anyway, like I said, if anyone has any sort of explanation for these, then please feel free to post it, because this just makes me mad. It almost feels like the developers didn't play SH1. XD (P.S. I'm not a Tomm Hulett hater, and I don't blame him for these issues. Don't assume I'm one of those fans. )

[Devoured]

It's been a while since I played it and I never cared much for the cult / Alessa aspects of the game so I might not be the best person to lay it out for you, but I'll try nevertheless :

1. SH1 doesn't really elaborate on the ritual itself and what went down exactly. I agree the events in 0 don't seem like the most logical considering what 1 does tell us, but technically I don't think they really contradict it either.

2. They didn't. Dahlia impulsively started the ritual at home and it didn't work because Travis interfered, seemingly because Alessa reached out to him while he was driving by. Travis would be susceptible to this [there is a memo on this, about mentally unstable people making susceptible pawns to outside influence. Add to that the fact that Travis automatically cares for Alessa considering his own childhood], something Dahlia could not have foreseen. [Also making her knowing Travis' name and situation etc rather questionable.]

3. & 4. The Alessa we encounter throughout the game is an astral projection as is evident from the fact that she's walking through doors and the like, there is a memo on this. TBH, it seems sloppy to me too, especially since there's a memo concerning split Ids as well, which doesn't appear to refer to just Travis but just as much to Alessa. This does seem to contradict itself as it implies the Alessa we encounter is the hateful rage-filled one, which in turn implies she more or less already had split herself up when we know in actuality this doesn't happen until the end when Harry & Jodie find Cheryl.

The main thing I don't get about it though is why Alessa would say "let me burn", since that evidently would have resulted in the succesful birth of the demon, which she was trying to avoid by bringing Travis to the house. One might argue that it still needed to be nurtured and that is why Alessa was kept alive, there's the Flauros and blablabla, but if I understand it correctly this seems to contradict what memos and the likes in 0rigins tells us [since the 1st ritual would apparently have resulted in birthing the God bypassing Flauros focusing Alesa's power and all that].

[Floodclaw]

Same here, I'm not the most knowledgeable person on the first game, but I'll take a stab at these things.

1. There is a separate ritual in Origins? Alessa was burned in her house in 1, as she was in the beginning of Origins. Her soul was split then. The only contention point, I think, is the location of her burning.

2. The cult wanted a soul split? I thought that just was just Alessa's doing. They were trying to burn her as a sacrifice, I think. Black magicks and all that.

3. What Devoured said. The Alessa you see is an astral projection.

4. I think she said that because she had already split her soul. If one half of her died while the other half lived, the ritual could never be completed. Plan foiled, everybody that isn't the Order is happy. She's buttmad in Origins because she was saved and because she wanted revenge on the Order, she just needs Travis's help.

Or maybe I'm missing something big here, I haven't played either game in a while.

[Meltdown]

Unsure about some of the points since I haven't played yet but...

3. Astral projection mate. I think the game even mentions it at some point.
4. I've always chocked it up to simple will-to-live. Which is impossibly strong in human beings. There have been times I've wanted to just curl up and die, but that doesn't mean I did it. Lets face it; Alessa wasn't having a good day. Probably wasn't feeling too great. But that must not have totally eliminated her will to live, and even if she didn't, once she realized Travis was going to rescue her.. She couldn't very well let HIM burn too, right? Once Travis scooped her up, it wasn't like she was gonna give him the old one-two punch and run back into the flames.

[murphdaycake]

Same here, I'm not the most knowledgeable person on the first game, but I'll take a stab at these things.

1. There is a separate ritual in Origins? Alessa was burned in her house in 1, as she was in the beginning of Origins. Her soul was split then. The only contention point, I think, is the location of her burning.

4. I think she said that because she had already split her soul. If one half of her died while the other half lived, the ritual could never be completed. Plan foiled, everybody that isn't the Order is happy. She's buttmad in Origins because she was saved and because she wanted revenge on the Order, she just needs Travis's help.

Or maybe I'm missing something big here, I haven't played either game in a while.

Oh ok, I see what you guys are saying on some things, others still seem a bit shaky. I do remember the part about astral projection, thanks for reminding me of that (I still think that's kind of a flimsy excuse though XD).

1. Yes, the house ritual opens the game, but later, right before the final boss, we see several members performing another ritual in some Egyptian tomb looking place, and then Travis defeats the final boss and the Flauros splits Alessa's soul and creates they baby that become Cheryl. (Here's a link to the video, skip to around 5:36 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WCUiXUNABzo) So yes, I did make a mistake, the cult did not split Alessa's soul in 0rigins, the Flauros did (I apologize for that, haven't played the game for two years ahahaha!). But that still doesn't seem to add up, since Silent Hill 1 explained that Alessa's soul split occurred during the first ritual, in order to prevent the birthing of God.

4. Your explanation makes sense, but since 0rigins shows that Alessa's soul split, the one that creates Cheryl, doesn't happen during the same ritual, that means that really, your explanation makes more sense than the one 0rigins tried to give. xD

[Purramid_Head]

Where did the first game say her soul split upon the ritual?

[captain crowbar]

origins is poop

[Augophthalmoses]

Storyline contradictions alone are not a good excuse to declare a game non canon to the entire series storyline. By that logic, you'd have to disregard the entire Metal Gear Solid series (MGS4 in particular). Do I like some of the rewrites and changes made in MGS4? Hell no. Doesn't mean I don't recognize it as an official part of the series and overall narrative because it is even though I heavily regard it as a complete disaster to the MGS storyline and didn't have a good cutscene/gameplay ratio. Seriously, the number of contradictions in the Silent Hill series (most of which aren't even any significant) doesn't even begin to compare to the stuff you'll find in the MGS series which has been overlooked by Kojima and several core members of his team since the beginning.

Having somebody else in charge of said series doesn't qualify as competent reasoning either even if they aren't Japanese. The Silent Hill games weren't exactly spearheaded by the same one person from each installment.

[Meltdown]

Storyline contradictions alone are not a good excuse to declare a game non canon to the entire series storyline. By that logic, you'd have to disregard the entire Metal Gear Solid series (MGS4 in particular). Do I like some of the rewrites and changes made in MGS4? Hell no. Doesn't mean I don't recognize it as an official part of the series and overall narrative because it is even though I heavily regard it as a complete disaster to the MGS storyline and didn't have a good cutscene/gameplay ratio. Seriously, the number of contradictions in the Silent Hill series (most of which aren't even any significant) doesn't even begin to compare to the stuff you'll find in the MGS series which has been overlooked by Kojima and several core members of his team since the beginning.

Having somebody else in charge of said series doesn't qualify as competent reasoning either even if they aren't Japanese. The Silent Hill games weren't exactly spearheaded by the same one person from each installment.

This. You can even find contradictions in the original 4.

Origins did pretty well. What little contradictions there are, they are minor.

[NarooN]

Those up there^. I mean, Keiichiro Toyama left after the first game came out. And as has been said, there are various contradictions and retcons in the first four titles as well. Like in SH2 & 4, how

REVEAL SPOILER

Walter's death went from killing himself with a spoon to the throat in a cell in SH2, to suddenly crucifying himself in SH4. The guy who killed himself with a spoon was retconned to be "someone who wasn't Walter" LOL

[Meltdown]

Those up there^. I mean, Keiichiro Toyama left after the first game came out. And as has been said, there are various contradictions and retcons in the first four titles as well. Like in SH2 & 4, how

REVEAL SPOILER

Walter's death went from killing himself with a spoon to the throat in a cell in SH2, to suddenly crucifying himself in SH4. The guy who killed himself with a spoon was retconned to be "someone who wasn't Walter" LOL

Ahahaha. This kind of goes in line with the whole "Non-Team Silent games are generally judged harder by fans than the originals" argument.

[murphdaycake]

Where did the first game say her soul split upon the ritual?

In the infamous "Boiler Room" memo that is missing from the NA version of the game. Well, the information isn't actually IN the memo, but upon reading the memo, Harry remarks that the date of the Gillespie house burning was the same day as the day him and his wife found Cheryl. This would mean that 1. The events of 0rigins couldn't have happened the way that they did, and 2. Alessa's soul would have had to be split on the same day as the ritual for Cheryl to have been found on that day.

EDIT: As a side note, I do want to reword something I said earlier. You guys are right in saying that it's dumb to not consider something canon due to a few inconsistencies. There's no reason the Silent Hill series can't just be a bunch of loosely connected games, that's completely fine. The problem I have with 0rigins was that it tried to be as canon as possible. It tried to explain Silent Hill 1, a game that I felt didn't need much more explanation, and in turn messed with the canon of Silent Hill 1.

[what]

In the infamous "Boiler Room" memo that is missing from the NA version of the game. Well, the information isn't actually IN the memo, but upon reading the memo, Harry remarks that the date of the Gillespie house burning was the same day as the day him and his wife found Cheryl. This would mean that 1. The events of 0rigins couldn't have happened the way that they did, and 2. Alessa's soul would have had to be split on the same day as the ritual for Cheryl to have been found on that day.

I don't see the inconsistency in what you're saying.

[murphdaycake]

In the infamous "Boiler Room" memo that is missing from the NA version of the game. Well, the information isn't actually IN the memo, but upon reading the memo, Harry remarks that the date of the Gillespie house burning was the same day as the day him and his wife found Cheryl. This would mean that 1. The events of 0rigins couldn't have happened the way that they did, and 2. Alessa's soul would have had to be split on the same day as the ritual for Cheryl to have been found on that day.

I don't see the inconsistency in what you're saying.

Oh I'm sorry, let me explain a bit better. I go all over the place when I explain things sometimes hahaha .

Since Harry said that the Gillespie house burning was the same day that he found Cheryl, this would mean that the soul split would have had to happen during the Gillespie house ritual. Otherwise, Cheryl couldn't have existed by then. After Harry and his wife found Cheryl, the events of 0rigins could have taken place, but 0rigins shows the soul split happening at a later time, as well as showing Harry and his wife finding Cheryl after the events of 0rigins. This doesn't add up with Harry's comment in Silent Hill 1. Maybe I'm just grasping at straws here, but if this is true, then the events of 0rigins couldn't have happened the way that they did.

[what]

If one assumes that the game takes place within a single day (and the fire happens in the very early hours of the morning), would the inconsistency then be accounted for?

[Purramid_Head]

In the infamous "Boiler Room" memo that is missing from the NA version of the game. Well, the information isn't actually IN the memo, but upon reading the memo, Harry remarks that the date of the Gillespie house burning was the same day as the day him and his wife found Cheryl. This would mean that 1. The events of 0rigins couldn't have happened the way that they did, and 2. Alessa's soul would have had to be split on the same day as the ritual for Cheryl to have been found on that day.

I don't see the inconsistency in what you're saying.

Travis was in the other world. Time doesn't function like it does in the real world.

[what]

Yeah, there's that. But even if we assume it did, the events could have taken place in a single calendar day, so either way it seems okay to me.

[Devoured]

I have to go with what here, it's night when the game begins, Travis wakes up a few hours later in the morning and the rest of the events all take place during that day.

... didn't have a good cutscene/gameplay ratio.

Kind of off topic but but yeah no kidding, there were several points where my controller would simply turn off because of the length of cutscenes and codec conversations etc...not to mention the nonsensical overkill 'story'...

About Walter's suicide, I never thought this was retracted in 4?

REVEAL SPOILER

I can't say for sure if this is just my interpretation as I haven't played any PS2 era SH game in a few years so I can't think of any memos or what exactly Henry said at Walter's grave [wasn't it empty?] to actually support this but the way I always saw it was that he still killed himself in prison [the official statement being it couldn't have been Walter], physically crawled out of his grave to commit more murders and then went into the walled up ritual chamber part of the apartment and after that he's somewhat of a manifestation. So IMO only Joseph and the people we encounter during the game are killed while Walter is crucified, if he wasn't dead already when he crucified himself there wouldn't be much left of his body after 2 years, I always figured it needed to be done that way to be free from his body or something...???

[Meltdown]

Even if you the Walter statement isn't true, there are plenty of other inconsistencies and contradictions within the first four. For example in Silent Hill 2 the orphanage is called the Hope House. In SH4 its Wish House (or vice versa, I forget). There are plenty of minor contradictions throughout the series, which is bound to happen when you're dealing with as many personnel changes AND complicated storylines.

[Augophthalmoses]

True, SH4 retconned how Walter really killed himself. SH2 tells us he killed himself in his jail cell with a spoon with nothing else in that game to tell or suggest otherwise. Then SH4 comes along and says the person in the jail cell wasn't the right person and he really killed himself in the storage area of Room 302.

I know SH4 provides an explanation for the rewrite but it doesn't make it any less of a retcon. Then there are the tunnel signs in the beginning of SH2 that tell us Old Silent Hill is fifty miles away and Brahms is two hundred sixty-five miles away.

http://alchemillahospital.net/sh2-shhd-review/

Some people try to say "oh, maybe they meant to add decimals and forgot!" and I personally don't buy into that. Even if that was their intention, still doesn't change the fact they aren't anywhere on the sign and still renders the town distances portrayed on said sign as mistakes.

Or you could the TwinPerfect route and try to claim they're in kilometers ignoring the fact that the brown sign to the left specifically saying "miles".

So basically, people aren't perfect and games are going to have little mistakes here and there over time regardless if it's the original team handling them or not. Doesn't mean specific games are suddenly non canon.