Playing the Devil's advocate

[Gorgoth]

I'm sorry but this thread is one big personal opinion.

Your point being?

This is an opinion-based forum. Virtually everything on this site comes down to opinion.
You think it's unfair to compare Downpour to the old games?
...Sounds awfully like a personal opinion to me.

Yes, I think it goes without saying that these are only my subjective opinions.
However, my opinions are just as good as yours, and I reserve every right to share them.

But don't worry, you won't have to endure them for much longer.

[Gorgoth]

There's one more thing I'd like to say regarding the otherworld.
Apart from the actual otherworld itself, I was also quite bothered by the otherworld transitions.
This wasn’t a problem with just Downpour either, but with every subsequent installment since the Movie.

In the old games there weren’t two similar transitions between the real world and the otherworld. They could be abrupt, of course, but they could be more subtle and gradual as well.
Sometimes the transition was so subtle you didn’t even know you were going into the otherworld until you were balls deep in it:


“Hey, waaaait a minute...that button wasn’t there a moment ago.”

Other times it was considerably more weird, unpredictable and ominous:


“Well, I sure don’t like where this is going.”

Since the movie, however, the otherworld transitions have invariably been like this:


Real world - Transition - Otherworld. No sense of mystery.

...and in Downpour, the disintegrating effect didn’t even look good either.

As “cool” as the transition might be, it really sucks a lot of the mystery out of the otherworld when there's such a visually clear distinction between the two worlds. It doesn’t exactly help that they use it all the time either, making it repetitive and predictable as well.
Chances are that they're not going to drop it anytime soon, but at the very least they could mix things up a little more. I'm probably not the only one who thinks this has grown old since 2006.

I'm not going to pin this one on the development team, however. Seeing how this transition has been in every installment since the movie, regardless of developer, I have a sneaking suspicion that it's the higher-ups that want this, probably for branding purposes. It's just a suspicion though.
I can't really back it up in any way.

PS. That little illustration there was originally meant to be a real matte painting, but due to time constraints ended up as a shitty paintover. Still, I think it gets the point across.

[keeps]

I liked it when The Other Mother's power was fading after Coraline collected the 3 ghost eyes. She entered the house after the outside world got all sucked up and wallpaper was peeling and the bug furniture was glitching and stuff. Works better there I guess.

[Q. Valintyne]

As “cool” as the transition might be, it really sucks a lot of the mystery out of the otherworld when there's such a visually clear distinction between the two worlds. It doesn’t exactly help that they use it all the time either, making it repetitive and predictable as well.
Chances are that they're not going to drop it anytime soon, but at the very least they could mix things up a little more. I'm probably not the only one who thinks this has grown old since 2006.

I'm not going to pin this one on the development team, however. Seeing how this transition has been in every installment since the movie, regardless of developer, I have a sneaking suspicion that it's the higher-ups that want this, probably for branding purposes. It's just a suspicion though.
I can't really back it up in any way.

The majority of your posts can't be backed up factually. Most of them are your opinion. Yes, you're entitled to it. We get that. It just seems your sole purpose here is to deride and scrutinize what is otherwise a pretty solid attempt at a Silent Hill game (I realize your thread name clearly states this, but still... it's getting old that you fail to see others points of view without coming back with a more convoluted theory on which how we are wrong and you are correct).

....Those are all nit picks for me, I personally enjoyed the game, don't really see the point in losing time how it wasn't as disturbing as TS game or not Silent Hillish enough.

I mean it's just a game, plus I don't want same stuff all the time.

This guy has the right idea. You can't compare apples to oranges.

As for what Gomez may or may not have wanted to do, I don't really care. Who knows, maybe he had some bad ideas and got turned down for a reason. I can only judge the game for what it ended up as.
Either way, I am very, very careful about mentioning any specific names whilst discussing this, and you guys should be too. None of us knows exactly who did what on the title or what kind of conflicts occurred behind the scenes, and it's not something I'm going to speculate on.

Maybe his ideas would've satiated your lust for more of the same.

Why should we be careful? I cited a source where he said what I quoted.

You've spent an entire thread speculating on what went wrong with Downpour and your "reasons" why it happened. I don't see the difference.

(As a side note, I think the whole otherworld was just a sneaky way of saving resources and padding the game's length to begin with. People complain about going through the same levels twice in SH 4, but in reality that's also what you did in SH 1-3)

Regardless of it being the same environmentally, new textures (and sometimes models) had to be drawn for the otherworld areas. It wasn't the exact same as before. 1-3 featured "progressive backtracking." There was a motivation to go back through the levels. Silent Hill 4 simply had a weaker motivation.

Some people say that Downpour's Otherworld was not unsettling or scary and then bring up the Otherworld from 3 for comparison.

That's not good in my opinion, because they're different, a lot. They probably had something different in mind for Downpour's Otherworld, there are different themes and stuff like that.

I personally, didn't found every Otherworld scary, the scariest ones are from 1 and 3. If people want something like that, then you'll get something like Homecoming's Otheworld, I want something different. We can't have old stuff with ever new game, what is then new in the "new" game then?

Some Otherworlds were unsettling, some were scary, some were weird, some were either scary, unsettling or weird only in certain places etc.

I think that the feeling of "weirdness" is what they were going for in Downpour, that's what I think at least. There are a lot of times when I wondered what the hell was going on.

Let's take the Centennial Building Otherworld, for few examples. The whole prison stuff when you're stuck in the jail cell, the part where you're walking on the clock hand, the cages that fall down and reveal clock mechanism, not to mention the part where you avoid the clock mechanism, those blades that move fast.

Why was the clock face positioned that way, why is a clock face there anyways? It felt like you're exploring a clock, it had those little mindfuck moments, at least one of them made you say "what is going on?". I don't understand the people who say that it didn't had weird imaginery, it had, maybe it's not something you would expect, something like in SH 3, instead you have something new.

Someone wrote it nicely, that person said that this Otherworld not only made the character feel insane, but the player too.
Do I even have to mention the music you can hear on the radio, in one Otherworld there's even some old furniture and music on a gramophone. You have a special kind of atmosphere that way and it fits nicely.

That's why I think it's unfair to compare them, they both are really different and have different atmospheres.

Downpour's Otherworld is different, that's a good thing. It's not scary, but that's not a bad thing, it invokes other feelings. It's not SH 3's Otherworld.

I'm sorry but this thread is one big personal opinion. Some may feel the same way, some may not.
It's not the game's fault that it didn't give you what you wanted, what you thought you'll be getting. You wanted a scary Otherworld and fucked up imaginery like in SH 1 and 3 for example. Well you got some weird imaginery and a weird Otherworld. It does not fit your tastes, it's not what you expected, there's really no need to make a thread where you compare it to other SH games and say that it wasn't more like that.
Some people like the stuff they did in Downpour, some not.
I don't think we need to bring up stuff like maybe they didn't knew how to make it scary, they didn't had experience in survival horror games.
Like with horror, this is all subjective, some love the stuff Downpour did and some maybe don't like it, but don't mind it.

This is exactly how I feel as well. You shared your opinion without being one-sided. You liked Downpour. I did too. Some people hate it. They have reasons for it. I'm okay with that. What I'm not okay with is people using their own opinions as fact and they refuse to believe otherwise.

You think it's unfair to compare Downpour to the old games?
...Sounds awfully like a personal opinion to me.

I think it's silly to compare them... especially when you compare them to the Team Silent games. You can't really compare Downpour and Homecoming. Theoretically you can and that could last a lifetime (and probably will). The fact of the matter is they were developed by separate entities each with their own objectives and stories to add to the Silent Hill mythos. Just because it doesn't agree with your idea of what should've happened doesn't mean that their vision is valid and of equal merit. Who are we to say that the melting walls and peeling paint transitions would not have been included in the earlier Silent Hills if the technology was there?

Saying that all interpretations of the Silent Hill mythos should adhere to the original games is narrow-minded and silly. If we kept this mindset in other areas, Tim Burton would have quite a few less movies... and we'd have quite an empty box office. Comic books, novels, and other media will always be re-interpreted as something completely different. Some attempts will be masterful. Others will be complete and utter failures. That is just the nature of the entertainment beast.

There's a few more things I’d like to talk about before I call it quits.

Go ahead. No one's stopping you.

[devil hunter]

Basically, what Q.Valintyne wrote.

Imagine if I compare SH 4 to SH 3 for example, how the Otherworld wasn't as disturbing (except for few places) like in 3. I appreciate 4 for the things it done differently and other stuff. If I want something more like 3 I would play 3.

I didn't meant to sound insulting when I wrote that's just your opinion, I just don't see the point in making this thread and doing so much work in showing how it wasn't more like SH 3, for example. Don't get me wrong, it's perfectly fine to write why you didn't like it, but why make comparisons if the game wasn't what you expected that it will be, I mean it's not really fair.
Also, about the Otherworld transitions, I don't like the real time Otherworld transitions that much either, but it wasn't that bad in Downpour.
It's certainly better than in Homecoming, remember how they promised a real time changing? That only happened once, everything else was in cutscenes.

In Downpour it was at least happening in real time most of the time.

Also, those weren't unpredictable? Well, you couldn't really predict when the Otherworld transition will start, though one was really surprising.
Also, how many people noticed that there was an Otherworld transition in the mines?
It was the one in the orphanage I think, when you're going after the little girl and then the Otherworld changes so fast you don't even have time to prepare for it.

Also, you can't really talk about one side of the coin, I'm talking about transitions back to the fog world. You didn't even mention them.
They got creative and subtle with those. Endless staircase, somehow hanging on a clock tower face, just to name a few examples. Those were also good, kind of mind fuck moments.

There was some cool stuff they did with Otherworld in Downpour, it's not really that bad like you describe it.

Also,

As “cool” as the transition might be, it really sucks a lot of the mystery out of the otherworld when there's such a visually clear distinction between the two worlds.

well that's how it has always been. I mean, only Otherworld looking a little closer to the fog world was the one in 2. It's not like you didn't guess right away that you're in Otherworld.

[clips7]

Okay, I'll admit that I expressed myself a little clumsily there. My bad.
The head shaking thing is obviously from Jacob's Ladder.
What I really was thinking of was how several of the creatures throughout the series have moved and behaved a lot like insects/arachnids. Creatures like the Lying figure, Slurper, Pendulum, Valtiel, and the ghost of Cynthia all tended to scurry across the floor (and walls) in a very spider-like manner.

Also, let's not forget the numerous creatures that have had a very prominent visual insect/arachnid/parasite theme, such as the Creeper, Puppet nurse, Hanged scratcher, Bloodsucker, Twinfeeler, Floatstinger, Mothbat and Greedy worm. The Swarm, Needler, Asphyxia and Amnion from Homecoming also comes to mind. Like I said, the original developers often based the creatures on stuff that’s universally unsettling, such as insects, diseases, disfigurement and death, because that’s what typically scares the majority of people

This is exactly how i feel....the creatures in downpour just felt like you were fighting normal humans....how was it scary if these creatures are dodging and blocking your attacks like you're in a boxing match? These creatures should've been trying to tear you apart and having behavioral mannerisms like what was described above....even with Downpour's weak enemy design, having these creatures with those mannerisms would've masked their weak design and made them have a much more terrifying impact and prescence....


That was really the only issue i had with Downpour, because i thought they nailed the atmosphere amazingly well....the booby traps felt a bit out of place and i would have prefered to explore downpour's otherworld sections instead of running thru them because they really looked interesting...

[Gorgoth]

Well, folks. It's been nice chatting with you, but at this point I'm going to call it quits.
while I probably could have stayed here and argued more, I really don't see the point.
I said pretty much everything I wanted to say in the first post.

Plus, I haven't exactly got the time for it either. When I first started this thread in early April I didn't think it would be active a whole month later. That's why I've been trying to wrap things up lately.

There’s one last thing on my mind though, and this is more important than any other post I have made:

Some of you may have enjoyed Downpour for what it was, and think there's no point in comparing the new SH games with the old ones. Some of you may also care more about the story and symbolism than how disturbing or scary the game was...and that is absolutely fine, you are entitled to think that.
But your opinion on the game doesn’t really matter, and neither does mine.
I'm afraid you're not seeing the bigger picture here.

The video game market has changed a lot since the original Silent Hill games were released about ten years ago. Since then, the market has become bigger, tougher, more competitive and a lot more economically inclined. Modern videogames have to pay much more attention to what segment they should cater to, and if they can’t adapt accordingly they will die.

Capcom chose to modernize Resident Evil by making it more action-oriented, with more of a “Hollywood presentation“ as the developers put it. Despite what the fans like to think, Resident Evil as a franchise is more popular and more profitable now than ever before.

Konami, on the other hand, has chosen to keep Silent Hill as a survival horror series, probably due to budgetary reasons. This in itself is a challenge, because the old-fashioned survival horror style of play can be a deterrent to most people other than the hardcore fans. Survival horror on its own is a niche market that simply isn’t big enough to sustain a company like Konami anymore...and it shows.

The Silent Hill franchise is slowly but surely dying.

Every subsequent installment in the series performs worse than the last, both in reception and sales, and that is bad, bad news for a franchise. This is, in fact, a typical textbook example of the death of a franchise. And don’t think even for a second that Konami wouldn’t ditch your precious Silent Hill out of some fan consideration, because once a franchise stops being profitable it will be cut like a rotten gangrenous limb.

The “Month of Madness” may very well have been a desperate, last-ditch effort to create some more hype around the series again, and seeing it fall apart is not a good omen. We have all complained about how Konami did a bad job with the marketing, but the truth could be more painful than that. When Konami didn't market the game properly, it might have been because they expected the game to underperform and simply pulled the plug rather than spend more resources on marketing. When Konami released Downpour it might have been in an attempt to minimize losses, rather than actually trying to gain any profits.

No, that’s not uncommon practice. That’s exactly what happened with Splatterhouse.
Have you even heard of Splatterhouse? You think Splatterhouse didn’t have a passionate fanbase like Silent Hill does? The developers even cooperated closely with the fanbase on that one, and still it got shit-canned at the finish line.

Like I said, it doesn’t really matter whether we liked the game or not, because we‘re just the fans, and our opinion doesn't really count anymore. What matters here is the average gamer, the mainstream and the masses. These are the ones who with their wallets actually decide whether a franchise lives or dies.

These guys don't care for such alien notions as story or symbolism. Considering how many of them probably haven't even heard of Silent Hill, they don't exactly care too much about the series' mythology or continuity either. They only care about whether the actual game delivers the goods or not, and when they want something, they will go for the title that best caters for their need.

Ask yourself this: What does Silent Hill really have to offer? Why would the average gamer pick Silent Hill when there’s so many other games that does everything Silent Hill does, only better?

The gamer who wants a horror game has plenty of options. There's the big titles like Alan Wake, Bioshock, Dead Space, Doom and Resident Evil. There's also plenty of smaller titles like Alien, Amnesia, Amy, Catherine, Fatal Frame, Penumbra and Siren. Why should the average gamer pick Silent Hill when several of these games does horror better than Downpour?

The gamers who want to explore a large, immersive world will just go for Dark Souls, Grand Theft Auto, The Elder scrolls and the Legend of Zelda. These are all bigger games, with higher budgets and better gameplay. I mean, come on. Silent Hill simply can’t compete in this area.

The gamers who want a more surreal experience will more likely go for games like Alice: Madness returns, Machinarium, Samorost and the Void, because these games has surrealism as a prominent selling feature. Even if Silent Hill could capitalize on this, the market simply isn’t big enough to be profitable.

The relatively few gamers who want a more story-oriented game will go for the much bigger, high-budget titles like Dragon Age, Heavy Rain, L.A Noire, Mass Effect and Uncharted. Silent Hill, with it’s limited budget, can’t really compete with the magnitude of the stories in these big games.

The gamers who want multiplayer...well. That speaks for itself.
Multiplayer is here to stay, and a franchise must adapt or die. Konami should have included multiplayer when they made Homecoming. Book of Memories is probably the best move Konami has made in trying to modernize Silent Hill, but I’m afraid it is too little, too late. Those who actually got themselves a Vita will probably just play Mortal Kombat instead.

Silent Hill, as great as it once may have been, faces a genuine risk of drowning in the modern market.

If Silent Hill as a backwards survival horror game is to survive in the tough, modern video game market, then it has to compensate for it's shortcomings through other means. In other words, it direly needs a competitive selling feature. And what's that one redeeming feature that Silent Hill had going for it, that could possibly set it apart from all the other alternatives on the market? The horror aspect!

The old games delivered a horror experience that no other game franchise could compete with. This is what made Silent Hill great once, and that reputation alone has kept the franchise afloat. However, at this point people have noticed how the series isn’t what it used to be, and are starting to put this reputation into question. People are starting to question why they should even buy these games, when there’s so many better alternatives on the market. Downpour didn’t exactly make matters any better, seeing how it overall has been the least well-received game in the series. Even Homecoming fared better with the critics.

If Silent Hill is to survive, it has to once again sell its horror aspect. Silent Hill has to be scarier and more disturbing than other competitive titles, so much so that it in itself becomes a selling point.
Otherwise, why would anyone buy these games?

Even as a hardcore fan, you really need to pinch yourself and consider this.

As a closing comment, I would like to say that I made this thread with the best of intentions.
When I complained about how Downpour wasn’t disturbing enough, it wasn’t just for the sake of bitching and complaining, it was because I genuinely care about the series, and because I don’t want to see it die.

I encourage you to discuss this further, because this is an important discussion.
...But I am done here. With this, I leave you.

Au Revoir.

[Q. Valintyne]

So basically you created this thread to bitch and moan and then comment on how all of your bitching and moaning (and ours too) is pointless?

Yeah. This was relevant. I would go paragraph by paragraph and point out how we've all said the same exact things that you just said, but you won't read it, so it'd be pointless.

Ahh... what the hell, here we go.

I said pretty much everything I wanted to say in the first post.

I'm speechless.

Some of you may have enjoyed Downpour for what it was, and think there's no point in comparing the new SH games with the old ones. Some of you may also care more about the story and symbolism than how disturbing or scary the game was...and that is absolutely fine, you are entitled to think that.
But your opinion on the game doesn’t really matter, and neither does mine.
I'm afraid you're not seeing the bigger picture here.

So now you're resulting to condescension. Real nice.

The video game market has changed a lot since the original Silent Hill games were released about ten years ago. Since then, the market has become bigger, tougher, more competitive and a lot more economically inclined. Modern videogames have to pay much more attention to what segment they should cater to, and if they can’t adapt accordingly they will die.

Capcom chose to modernize Resident Evil by making it more action-oriented, with more of a “Hollywood presentation“ as the developers put it. Despite what the fans like to think, Resident Evil as a franchise is more popular and more profitable now than ever before.

I'm not certain what to say about this. We've already covered this several times. The reason Resident Evil is still popular is because now it's resulting to fan service. Resident Evil 4 brought back a popular character. Resident Evil 5 got reeeeally action-oriented and alienated fans. Resident Evil 6 and using the tried and true formula of bringing back familiar (and favorite) characters. Homecoming did that and was met with universal bitching and moaning. Aside from the fact that it tried to tie-in with the film cosmetically, it also brought back one of the series' most beloved creatures (albeit in a different form): Pyramid Head.

But yeah... there's not sense in talking more about that aspect.

Konami, on the other hand, has chosen to keep Silent Hill as a survival horror series, probably due to budgetary reasons. This in itself is a challenge, because the old-fashioned survival horror style of play can be a deterrent to most people other than the hardcore fans. Survival horror on its own is a niche market that simply isn’t big enough to sustain a company like Konami anymore...and it shows.

Silent has tried to adapt and be different several times. As mentioned earlier, Homecoming tried to be more like its horror brethren Resident Evil and move on to more action-oriented gameplay. Regardless of how they "adapt to the market," if they fans don't like it, they won't buy it.

I made another thread about how people would receive a Rockstar-developed Silent Hill. I bring this up because several of the games you mention are developed by said company. If Silent Hill tried this venture (and failed), fans will not buy it. Will it stack up better against competition? Yeah, maybe. Will it be critically acclaimed? Let's be generous and say 'yes.' If the fans don't like it, it will fade away into obscurity like a lot of games did. You can't please everyone. You never will. It's silly to think that every game besides Silent Hill is successful, either. Konami is not the only company that fucks up.

Every subsequent installment in the series performs worse than the last, both in reception and sales, and that is bad, bad news for a franchise. This is, in fact, a typical textbook example of the death of a franchise. And don’t think even for a second that Konami wouldn’t ditch your precious Silent Hill out of some fan consideration, because once a franchise stops being profitable it will be cut like a rotten gangrenous limb.

Now lets be fair now, shall we? Takayoshi Sato was quoted during the development of the first Silent Hill saying that they intended to make "a masterpiece rather than a traditional sales-oriented game [and that they opted for] an engaging story, which would persist over time – similar to successful literature."

Why can't the same be said for later installments?

It's hard to tell. Konami (as a publisher) has become greedy in this sense and no longer cares about the artistic merit of Silent Hill. Hell, I don't think they cared back then. All they wanted was to compete with Resident Evil. Now they're still competing with them, but also with the likes Alan Wake and Dead Space. You can't avoid competition, all you can do is compete and hope you come out on top.

Let us go into figure details.

Homecoming and Metal Gear Solid 4 came out the same year. That's pretty nice, right? Their sales were actually up. However, they failed to make a solid profit.

Here are the sales for Homecoming and Origins (in 2009, for US and Canada):
Silent Hill: Homecoming - 73k (360), 84k (PS3)
Silent Hill Origins: 80k (PS2), 154k (PSP)

Here is the core series (PS2 numbers only, also from 2009/US and Canada).

Silent Hill 2 - 512k
Silent Hill 3 - 279k
Silent Hill 4 - 209k

That's positive, right? As a whole, Origins sold more than Silent Hill 4 on PS2.

It's honestly sad, really.

This told Konami that fans wanted more of the same. Homecoming tried to deviate and it ended up costing them quite a lot. The fiscally responsible thing was to do more of the same.

The dumb thing to say here is "Welp, the sales of the newer games are far lower that the new ones. THE SERIES IS GONE TO HELL." That's stupid to say. It really is. The numbers for 2-4 are lifetime sales. It's probably higher now... so are the other ones. It really isn't fair to throw Downpour under the bus this early in the game. Hell, in 10 years, its numbers may match the numbers for Silent Hill 4, at least.

But here is the thing that really got me. This year, Capcom reported that their sales have halved. That's not just Resident Evil. That includes the wildly successful Monster Hunter series as well.

I'm sure Konami's failure this year will rival Capcom's, but my point is that Capcom's not doing that much better at all. In Japan, they're fairing very similarly.

The “Month of Madness” may very well have been a desperate, last-ditch effort to create some more hype around the series again, and seeing it fall apart is not a good omen. We have all complained about how Konami did a bad job with the marketing, but the truth could be more painful than that. When Konami didn't market the game properly, it might have been because they expected the game to underperform and simply pulled the plug rather than spend more resources on marketing. When Konami released Downpour it might have been in an attempt to minimize losses, rather than actually trying to gain any profits.

That is a personal conjecture. It may have been a "great way to capitalize on success." It didn't happen that way, but you can't make the assumption that the entire Konami team's lives were riding on the success of the Silent Hill franchise; they have plenty of other shit to worry about.

That’s exactly what happened with Splatterhouse.
Have you even heard of Splatterhouse? You think Splatterhouse didn’t have a passionate fanbase like Silent Hill does? The developers even cooperated closely with the fanbase on that one, and still it got shit-canned at the finish line.

Its not fair to compare these two incidents at all. BottleRocket (the remake's original developer) got shit-canned for "performance issues." They took their dev kits away. A lot of their work got fucked over in the weeks that Namco Bandai's in-house dev team had it. They had no idea what they were doing,so they hired some of the team back. Not full-time jobs either. Fucking contracts.

In the same vein of what you said earlier about the Gomez/Downpour argument I posed, how can you say that Splatterhouse would not have been a collective pile of shit if BottleRocket would've had the game until its release?

You can't.

Like I said, it doesn’t really matter whether we liked the game or not, because we‘re just the fans, and our opinion doesn't really count anymore. What matters here is the average gamer, the mainstream and the masses. These are the ones who with their wallets actually decide whether a franchise lives or dies.

These guys don't care for such alien notions as story or symbolism. Considering how many of them probably haven't even heard of Silent Hill, they don't exactly care too much about the series' mythology or continuity either. They only care about whether the actual game delivers the goods or not, and when they want something, they will go for the title that best caters for their need.

That's an awfully rude assumption to make about "average gamers." Are you saying that "average gamers" are too stupid to understand or bother with stories? A lot of average gamers appreciate story-heavy games if they deliver aesthetically or visually. Average gamers like Skyrim. Some actually read the books in-game. Some don't. Some games have a good balance of what is for the "average" and what is for the "hardcore." Lots of games are now trying to cater to both sides. Mass Effect did this by opting for a "Story" mode where the combat would be easier, the RPG elements scaled back, and the player is left with what they want: the story. Others want an action approach (they choose the "Action" mode. No choosing dialogue here. It's automatic.). For the full experience, we have the normal game for those players to enjoy.

Ask yourself this: What does Silent Hill really have to offer? Why would the average gamer pick Silent Hill when there’s so many other games that does everything Silent Hill does, only better?

The gamer who wants a horror game has plenty of options. There's the big titles like Alan Wake, Bioshock, Dead Space, Doom and Resident Evil. There's also plenty of smaller titles like Alien, Amnesia, Amy, Catherine, Fatal Frame, Penumbra and Siren. Why should the average gamer pick Silent Hill when several of these games does horror better than Downpour?

I have a PS3. I don't have the Alan Wake option. Not everyone has an Xbox. Not everyone has a PS3, either. Exclusive titles are hard to pinpoint. Bioshock is a FPS. I really don't like them. Dead Space relies on "jump scares." Doom is... Doom. Resident Evil is (as before) not exactly survival horror anymore.

"Average gamers" don't know shit about these smaller titles. I have never heard of Amnesia because I am a console gamer, but my friend mentioned getting it off of Steam and it being "good." My interest level is still zero. Fatal Frame is old is has no new entries I'm not counting this one... since it's a apparent "spin-off." We've already established that those are evil, right?

I never fell for Siren, either. It never grasped me whatsoever. As for the other titles (sans Amy and Catherine), I've never even heard of them. Whether or not Silent Hill is successful or not, gamers still know it exists. I has been around for over 10 years. Its impact is kinda hard to ignore (well, not so much anymore... but without its legacy, titles like Alan Wake and Dead Space may have never come into fruition).

The gamers who want to explore a large, immersive world will just go for Dark Souls, Grand Theft Auto, The Elder scrolls and the Legend of Zelda. These are all bigger games, with higher budgets and better gameplay. I mean, come on. Silent Hill simply can’t compete in this area.

The gamers who want a more surreal experience will more likely go for games like Alice: Madness returns, Machinarium, Samorost and the Void, because these games has surrealism as a prominent selling feature. Even if Silent Hill could capitalize on this, the market simply isn’t big enough to be profitable.

The relatively few gamers who want a more story-oriented game will go for the much bigger, high-budget titles like Dragon Age, Heavy Rain, L.A Noire, Mass Effect and Uncharted. Silent Hill, with it’s limited budget, can’t really compete with the magnitude of the stories in these big games.

"Better gameplay" is subjective. The glitches of The Elder Scrolls and Fallout games are on par with some of the stuff in Downpour. In fact, I've had more gamebreaking glitches playing Fallout: New Vegas than I EVER had with Downpour... or any Silent Hill game, for that matter. Don't even argue that "the scale" affects the quality and "it can't all be perfect." They shouldn't shoot past their means.

Alice: Madness Returns wasn't that great. It didn't sell well, either. The big selling point was a playable version of the hard-to-find original being free to download w/ purchase. Even still, you still can buy the original for $9.99 on both PSN and Live... but even here, the enjoyment one gets from a game is subjective. The other games, like many of the ones you've mentioned, are virtually unknown.

Heavy Rain was not only for "story-oriented" people. It catered to everyone (if people gave it a chance). It dared to be different. It dared to try new things. By doing this, they managed to sell 1.5 million units worldwide by the end of 2010.

And even without multiplayer.

Book of Memories is probably the best move Konami has made in trying to modernize Silent Hill, but I’m afraid it is too little, too late. Those who actually got themselves a Vita will probably just play Mortal Kombat instead.

I'd wager Uncharted over Mortal Kombat, but the Vita is still in its early stages. It's too early to make any kind of assumption about it just yet.

And what's that one redeeming feature that Silent Hill had going for it, that could possibly set it apart from all the other alternatives on the market? The horror aspect!

Once again, horror is subjective. Some people find Mirror's Edge horrific and impossible to play due to their fear of heights. Silent Hill doesn't frighten me anymore because I'm desensitized to it. A ten year old may find Homecoming and Downpour scary as hell. People who have never played 1-4 may find Homecoming and Downpour to be simply the scariest thing since catching their parents fucking in their bedrooms.

If Silent Hill is to survive, it has to once again sell its horror aspect. Silent Hill has to be scarier and more disturbing than other competitive titles, so much so that it in itself becomes a selling point.
Otherwise, why would anyone buy these games?

The same reason people buy other brands of toiler paper, food, and other things: brand loyalty. I'm riding this dead horse until the fucking end. I'm enjoying the ride and I'm enjoying the company of the fans I saddle up with. We'll ride this gravy train until it has all run dry. Why? Because we love the ride. There may be little quips or things we can't stand, but we are all united in our love for the glory days.

As a closing comment, I would like to say that I made this thread with the best of intentions.
When I complained about how Downpour wasn’t disturbing enough, it wasn’t just for the sake of bitching and complaining, it was because I genuinely care about the series, and because I don’t want to see it die.

Are you saying that because we don't agree with all of your points, we effectively don't care about the future of the series? We don't want to see it die, either. That's why some of us choose to be more optimistic than others. I mean, we can shit facts at each other until we're blue in the face, but it won't change anything. We love Silent Hill. To some of us, it is a vital part of our lives and what make us up as human beings. Not all games or series has this kind of love (and hatred). The facts may be dreary, but that doesn't stop us from having one thing: hope. As long as there are fans, there will be games and other media. Whether or not it be official releases from Konami is a different story. The fanbase has created many fan games, stories, and other media that effectively keep the series alive.

Even if it dies at Konami, it will live on in the hearts of all of us.

[devil hunter]

Well, can't really add more because Q. Valintyne wrote it nicely.

But, I don't see logic in SH series is dying, that again is subjective opinion. There are still new SH games, so I wouldn't really say that it's dying. It will die if you really want it to die.

"Average" gamers will buy SH games because they're horror games, plus people are not stupid, they understand what a good story and characters are. Hell, I played a couple of SH games with my friends who are not even horror fans and they like them. One even started playing some horror games and thought about getting Downpour.

I'm glad that SH games are still survival horror games, that they didn't took the same route like Resident Evil. Downpour is a true survival horror game (we didn't had many of those lately, so that's one thing that could make people interested in the game) and it even gave a "new life to the series" so to speak.

I think you should blame Konami for the bad marketing for games not selling that much, because if you didn't noticed they're completely out of their fucking minds right now.
The only death of SH series could be the bitchy fans and Konami with its bad marketing.

All the things which you wrote are personal opinions at best, people won' probably agree with you and probably don't see it the same way you do.

[Q. Valintyne]

@devil hunter; you actually read all of that?

I didn't realize until after I was done how long it truly was.

[devil hunter]

I read most of it XD

[Gorgoth]

Oh, you two.

You played right into my hands.

[Q. Valintyne]

Creepy.

I feel like you'll track me down and murder me in my own home now.

[Avianna]

Oh wow, I didn't realize this thread was still going. I have a lot of reading to do

[Ratiocinator]

Well, folks. It's been nice chatting with you, but at this point I'm going to call it quits.
while I probably could have stayed here and argued more, I really don't see the point.
I said pretty much everything I wanted to say in the first post.

I really hope you aren't leaving the boards as a whole. I really enjoyed reading your posts here and agree so much with your OP it's kind of ridiculous. I lust for more people who not only make but present conversations like the way you've done for our SH fanbase as a whole.

EDIT: Now I'm caught up in this thread.

@ Q. Valintyne
From an outside, neutral party it seemed like you were taking Gorgoth's posts a little too personally (I didn't see it as him going after you or anyone else. He was highly neutral through all of it, to me), but I also highly enjoyed many of your posts on here. Especially your last ones which were chuck-full of nice info and well-said rebuttals.

This has been an excellent thread overall. Just wonderful.

[Q. Valintyne]

I wasn't taking them personally at all.

That's just the "Ace Attorney" side of me.

[Gorgoth]

Are you guys still hanging out here? I guess a follow-up post is in order then.

I really hope you aren't leaving the boards as a whole. I really enjoyed reading your posts here and agree so much with your OP it's kind of ridiculous. I lust for more people who not only make but present conversations like the way you've done for our SH fanbase as a whole.

I'm glad to hear that you liked the thread, but unfortunately I am leaving this forum, at least for a while.
I might make some similar threads in the future, but that is when I have something to say, and when I have the time to say it. Preparing a thread like this takes time and effort, you know.

Oh, and you're not fooling anyone, Q. Valintyne.
If your actual posts are anything to go by, you took it pretty personally.

Are you saying that because we don't agree with all of your points, we effectively don't care about the future of the series?

That's quite the accusation there. Doesn't look good in hindsight, now does it?

And one more thing: the water is every-fucking-where. Not just in the ceiling.

It's called exaggerating and generalizing for effect.

It's a useful method for 1. clearly getting a point across, and 2. for luring out highly opinionated people who will proceed to bump the thread with their heated rebuttals.

Yes, I had planned for that right from the very beginning. How else do you think this thread managed to rack up 1300+ views and stay active for a whole month?

[Q. Valintyne]

Oh, and you're not fooling anyone, Q. Valintyne.
If your actual posts are anything to go by, you took it pretty personally.

Are you saying that because we don't agree with all of your points, we effectively don't care about the future of the series?

It's called exaggerating and generalization for effect.

I didn't take it personally. If it helps you sleep better at night, feel free to think what you wish.

[Avianna]

Are you guys still hanging out here? I guess a follow-up post is in order then.

Hey! Don't make fun of my reading disorder! Of course I'm still here. I'm catching up... and linking people to the thread cause its damn interesting


Either way this thread seems to come off, I hope you do come back at some point. You sparked something wonderful with this topic; and that was debate that for the most part stayed respectful and interesting. Kudos!

Overall the thread made me look at some of the design aspect behind the game in the last month in a completely different light. Creatively, its been a really interesting thought process in my head because of it. And because of that, double kudos

[devil hunter]

I don't see how someone not agreeing with someone's opinion is taking it personally.

Did I took it personally then?

I know that's all just his opinion, but he wrote his problems with the game in the way where it seems that everyone thinks like that without looking at the other side. For example, I am one of the people who really like's the game's art style. And like I wrote in previous posts, don't see how you can compare Downpour to SH 3, They're completely different games. Besides, it's not the game's fault that it's not your cup of tea.
Some people love it. I wish he wrote something about "the other side of the coin", because not everyone thinks the same way as him and not everyone thinks that SH series is dying.
Opinion does not equal fact.