Playing the Devil's advocate

[Aerith]

I agree that I wouldn't call Downpour necessarily the most disturbing game in the franchise, but it certainly kept me on edge and brought a bit of nostalgia back from earlier titles. Though we are bombarded by blood and gore, it just doesn't quite fit with the essential theme of Downpour. Like Yuki stated above, that Otherworld fits well in Silent Hills 1 and 3 because of Alessa's burning and hospitalization, being pregnant with God, her rebirth, and those who aided her throughout. The water theme isn't disturbing, but quite frankly, I'm absolutely fine with that. Sure I want some scares and some freaky stuff to happen, but we can't just throw things in that we want in just because they look cool. It all needs to tie together. Downpour shouldn't be expected to be on the same disturbing level as former titles, nor have similar Otherworld sequences. Downpour stood out among the crowd, and I think it made a great reputation for itself. There were some things that I found disturbing about Downpour, and they're even as much so as things I've seen in Silent Hill 3 (though I'm not saying Downpour contained more, or even better, examples). These include:

REVEAL SPOILER

The body held up by wires in the Caverns, the blood that appears in Overlook after you examine the crime scene items, DJ Ricks' radio announcements caught in a sort of loophole and sounding eerily demonic, many of the side quests, and the Wheelman, himself (There are probably more, but I just can't think of them all).

Personally, Downpour left me dreadful at times. I would be so afraid to go through a door or to walk down a hallway because there were so many surprises at every turn. It definitely kept me saying, "Oh shit!" often.

I agree that water could have been portrayed a little bit better at points (I wasn't a huge fan of the water being on the ceiling because it looked more like jelly, rather than water...). Some parts were perfect. I loved the storms while exploring Silent Hill. That was a nice touch. I also loved parts where you waded through water to reach your destination. The water had some strong and weak points. The void was okay, and I liked the symbolism behind it, but it was a bit stressful at times to maneuver with it present (I had times where it would spread to another hallway adjacent to the one I was running in, so I would be taking damage and it'll be a good distance behind me). I also didn't care too much for the appearance of it, but it wasn't bad. I'm glad that the void wasn't the central part of the Otherworld, but rather a small element to it. One thing I loved about the Otherworld was that it gets longer and more disturbing as your progress through the game. There are many times where the Otherworld will look pretty much the same throughout (maybe a bit more disturbing in some areas) in the franchise, and I love that Murphy's looked like it was getting more disturbing as his story unfolded.

The characters were wonderful, as were their VAs. I loved how Anne and Murphy's pasts came together and she just wasn't there as some form of manifestation. She was a real person who was impacted by Murphy, and Murphy by her (in some form or another). I wish we could have learned more about Howard and DJ Ricks, but it's not a huge concern for me. I think Ricks and Howard's purposes were fulfilled for Murphy by the way those characters set examples for Murphy, and thus help him come to the realization of why he's in Silent Hill.

As for monsters, their designs weren't the best, but I didn't hate them. My only real peeve is that, though you can see their symbolism in most of them, some of them are a little bit trickier to distinguish. At the same time, this is also a good thing. It keeps us guessing, rather than having it handed to us. I liked some features of the monsters (E.g; the Screamer's 'wet' appearance, the Minion's manic expression).

In the end, you are correct, OP. We all have different tastes, and I pretty much stated all of mine. I guess I'm more of a story and characters type of girl, so Downpour was definitely a great game for me. I hope that in the future there will be more disturbances for those gore lovers out there, while keeping a nice story for us story lovers.

[devil hunter]

And one more thing: the water is every-fucking-where. Not just in the ceiling.
.

Yeah, the water is everywhere. Honestly I didn't mind what they did with the water. Besides isn't that what people want? Subtlety?
The way they used water worked better than it would have worked in that picture Gorgoth showed, with the water attacking.

[captain crowbar]

I would have loved a drowning/almost drowning sequence

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like the one in SHSM

...that's a real life fear of mine and it would have amped up my fear level. But for some reason they passed on the opportunity :/

[Q. Valintyne]

And one more thing: the water is every-fucking-where. Not just in the ceiling.
.

Yeah, the water is everywhere. Honestly I didn't mind what they did with the water. Besides isn't that what people want? Subtlety?
The way they used water worked better than it would have worked in that picture Gorgoth showed, with the water attacking.

Yeah. Water attacking you is borderline comical, in my opinion.

I would have loved a drowning/almost drowning sequence

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like the one in SHSM

...that's a real life fear of mine and it would have amped up my fear level. But for some reason they passed on the opportunity :/

I totally agree with this. It would've been a nice parallel to the events surrounding

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Charlie. Especially if the Bogeyman was behind the near-death experience... perhaps holding Murphy down as he does the "shush" motion with the other hand...?

[Avianna]

I would have loved a drowning/almost drowning sequence

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like the one in SHSM

...that's a real life fear of mine and it would have amped up my fear level. But for some reason they passed on the opportunity :/

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There was one slight drowning sequence. In the prison, after the machine puzzles.

But I agree it would have been fun to see more. I'm just not sure how that fits into the story as they created.

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No one really drowns in Downpour. Maybe the 'drown' in guilt or their quest for revenge, but Charlie's body is just dumped in the lake (unless I missed a note). I kinda got that the raining water theme comes more from the showers that Murphy almost kills Napier in and almost is made to kill Frank in.

[Gorgoth]

(Blood and gore) just doesn't quite fit with the essential theme of Downpour. Like Yuki stated above, that Otherworld fits well in Silent Hills 1 and 3 because of Alessa's burning and hospitalization, being pregnant with God, her rebirth, and those who aided her throughout. (...) Downpour shouldn't be expected to be on the same disturbing level as former titles, nor have similar Otherworld sequences.

It seems like some of you have misunderstood me, so I'm going to clarify a little...
I didn't say that Downpour should have had a bloody, gory, rusty otherworld like the old games, I said that they should have made more out of the water theme it did have.

I'm pretty sure I'm going to be attacked by you since I don't agree with you, but whatever.

Don’t worry. I have never made any personal attacks and I never will.

[Shadedarkan]

I would have loved a drowning/almost drowning sequence

REVEAL SPOILER

like the one in SHSM

...that's a real life fear of mine and it would have amped up my fear level. But for some reason they passed on the opportunity :/

REVEAL SPOILER

There was one slight drowning sequence. In the prison, after the machine puzzles.

But I agree it would have been fun to see more. I'm just not sure how that fits into the story as they created.

REVEAL SPOILER

No one really drowns in Downpour. Maybe the 'drown' in guilt or their quest for revenge, but Charlie's body is just dumped in the lake (unless I missed a note). I kinda got that the raining water theme comes more from the showers that Murphy almost kills Napier in and almost is made to kill Frank in.

In the Devil's Pitstop diner at the beginning.

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Edited: If you don't turn the valve in time you get electrocuted while neck deep in water in the kitchen. Also, in the Centennial Building, Parking Lot, Maintenance Access: After getting the card the water level rapidly rises and give the impression you will drown if you don't get out.

[Avianna]

I would have loved a drowning/almost drowning sequence

REVEAL SPOILER

like the one in SHSM

...that's a real life fear of mine and it would have amped up my fear level. But for some reason they passed on the opportunity :/

REVEAL SPOILER

There was one slight drowning sequence. In the prison, after the machine puzzles.

But I agree it would have been fun to see more. I'm just not sure how that fits into the story as they created.

REVEAL SPOILER

No one really drowns in Downpour. Maybe the 'drown' in guilt or their quest for revenge, but Charlie's body is just dumped in the lake (unless I missed a note). I kinda got that the raining water theme comes more from the showers that Murphy almost kills Napier in and almost is made to kill Frank in.

In the Devil's Pitstop diner at the beginning.

REVEAL SPOILER

If you don't turn the valve in time you drown in the kitchen. I almost did that the first play through.

Wow. I can't believe I forgot about that one too. Yea, that's a lot of drowning for a story that has really nothing to do with anyone drowning.



I think it would have been cool if the void would have been more water based. Maybe like an acid rain. It would have really pushed the rain/shower symbolism.

I agree with a lot of the sentiments that have been stated here. I think that Vatra did a great job getting the game back on its feet and heading in the right direction, but I would love to see them push the 'disturbing' in the next game. I just keep thinking to myself that the chase sequences looked like they had some disturbing things in them, but I was to busy panicking to really look.

[Meltdown]

I'm impressed with this thread. I love that this forum can have such civil discussions by people who are undoubtedly very passionate and emotionally attached to the games we play.

/lovefest.

Now. Going back to the idea that the Silent Hill atmosphere and monsters reflect the character and are not simply there to scare and scar the player, wouldn't it be logical to say that we might be holding the creatures to an unfair standard? The monsters and creatures of the original 3 Silent Hills were all reflective of the torment psyches of a handful of characters. As such, we shouldn't expect the monsters of Downpour to be at all similar to them.

I am all about fear of the unknown. Its what freaks me out the most. But perhaps Murphy's tortured mind is just vastly different than James' or Alessa's. Therefor his monsters/world take on a very different feel, even if its not quite as mysterious and foggy as games past.

[Avianna]

But perhaps Murphy's tortured mind is just vastly different than James' or Alessa's. Therefor his monsters/world take on a very different feel, even if its not quite as mysterious and foggy as games past.

That's a good point. And except for one ending, Murphy didn't kill anyone (well... one of those is supposed to be a mistake). James killed his wife. Alessa is just messed up beyond belief because of how she grew up. The only thing really messed up about Murphy is that somewhat recently he found out his child was killed. He's pain isn't necessarily violent in nature. Even when he tried to get himself into prison to kill someone, he couldn't do it.

I'm not a fan of the ending where he's a killer either. It really does seem to tacked on and doesn't go very well at all with the other elements of the story.

[Meltdown]

But perhaps Murphy's tortured mind is just vastly different than James' or Alessa's. Therefor his monsters/world take on a very different feel, even if its not quite as mysterious and foggy as games past.

That's a good point. And except for one ending, Murphy didn't kill anyone (well... one of those is supposed to be a mistake). James killed his wife. Alessa is just messed up beyond belief because of how she grew up. The only thing really messed up about Murphy is that somewhat recently he found out his child was killed. He's pain isn't necessarily violent in nature. Even when he tried to get himself into prison to kill someone, he couldn't do it.

I'm not a fan of the ending where he's a killer either. It really does seem to tacked on and doesn't go very well at all with the other elements of the story.

Exactly. Murphy's past isn't nearly as tormented as Alessa, James, Heather, or even Alex. Perhaps this is reflected in the less abstract creatures and environment in Silent Hill?

[Shadedarkan]

I really do agree with what Gorgoth has explained here. My first reaction after getting to Silent Hill was utter amazement at how let down I felt. I thoroughly enjoyed the 'introduction' of the Devil's Pit area and expected that style to continue, but the game became boring very quickly after getting into Silent Hill.

I'll admit that the Otherworld fit Murphy's problems very well, but I felt it needed to slow down a bit like Gorgoth mentioned. There is so much you can't experience, even on multiple play throughs. I feel like I need to tape each one so I can really look at them.

[Andromeda]

I guess I'm more of a story and characters type of girl, so Downpour was definitely a great game for me. I hope that in the future there will be more disturbances for those gore lovers out there, while keeping a nice story for us story lovers.

Really? I am definitely a story lover (one of my main drives to play games) as well but this story seemed poorly executed. That is another reason why I think this game lacked so much.

I agree with Avianna that even the bad ending didn't make any sense dealing with prior story elements and the set up in the game.

Talking about what others had discussed previously about the Otherworld in downpour, no I don't feel it needed to be bloody/gorey/rusted like some previous. Even in Silent Hill 2 the otherworld wasn't like Heather's or Alessa's, nor did it look like their's. It took on a dilapidated and dirty look. I just don't understand why the water always had to look so clean, and why everything seemed so brightly lit. There is so much more they could of done with the water elements. In fact I feel like there wasn't enough water in the otherworld segments. Why couldn't Murphy wade through sewage-like filthy water with possible monsters lurking beneath? It poises so many even non-threatening cheap jump scares to keep the player on edge. I'm deathly afraid of drowning and my city is located by a lake. I just...I'm so disappointed.

I wanted to be scared, or atleast unnerved or uncomfortable. It just never happened.

And the thing is I don't buy this, "They don't always have enough money to do everything." You have plenty of potential to design something good at the start of production. It just takes talent not money. :/

[Aerith]

Poorly executed? I really don't see it. I think the story was explained just fine. What core parts weren't explained, or rather, weren't supported by anything to allow the player to piece it together? Seriously, I'm curious. Maybe I'm just ignorant to detail.

Sure, I will agree that Ending D doesn't really tie in story-wise, and for that I think that further proves that that ending is simply not canon. Would it have been better if it could have fit in better? Sure, why not.

I do recall parts where Murphy waded through murky water...at least on the version I played. Besides, why does it matter if it's brightly lit? What if Murphy, being a prisoner, hates bright lights, or it symbolizes Murphy being watched or something. The thing is that not every Silent Hill has to be dirty and dark. I'd rather the environment serve a purpose for the protagonist, and in short, support the story, rather than be eye candy for me.

For me, I was scared shitless many times. It's been stated before, but I'll reiterate: The game isn't going to appeal to everyone. You can't make everyone happy. Everyone is different. Perhaps they didn't execute everything you want in a game. Do you think they did everything I'd like? They did, but I realize that they simply can't deliver everything to everyone, but they still delivered a good game, despite that.

[devil hunter]

I also think that the story wasn't executed poorly.

Btw. not enough water in Otherworlds? From what I remember every time you're in the Otherworld there's water present. It has enough water. Remember that the Otherworld is not just Murphy's. There's water in the fog world too, hell, the fog itself is blue. I don't understand why people say that the water wasn't used well, It's used fine, it's not like Murphy was afraid of water, the water just reminds him of the stuff from the past, like Charlie's death and Frank. It wouldn't really make sense for water to attack him or stuff like that.Murphy's name means "sea warrior" and it fits with the story and water theme.
Remember the part where Bogeyman strangles the boy? Murphy first notices the water and knows that something is wrong. It's stuff like that that works.
The world changing into Otherworld also happens several times thanks to the water. Like when Murphy puts out the fire in the diner, or when he lights the garbage to activate the fire exit.

[Meltdown]

I have not played Downpour yet, but regarding water.. Have any of you played BioShock? That's a game that uses water flawlessly. I will probably hold it to that standard when I play..

[Shadedarkan]

I wouldn't compare Bioshock's use of water to Downpour. They are two very different dynamics at play there. Although, Downpour's environment is very much the same style as Bioshock. Generic and retro.

[Q. Valintyne]

And the thing is I don't buy this, "They don't always have enough money to do everything." You have plenty of potential to design something good at the start of production. It just takes talent not money. :/

Totally wrong. If you don't have the technology or engine available to properly execute an idea, it will get scrapped. Simple as that. Money is a pretty big limitation on what you can do as well. If I only had a hundred dollars for my voice actors, I'd end up with some pretty disappointing results. If I invested maybe $10,000 in the VA department, I'd have a better end product.

Talent is great, I agree. But even if you have the most talented humans alive with no capital, you'll have nothing. Simple as that. Designing a game and following through are two different ideas altogether.

[Andromeda]

Totally wrong. If you don't have the technology or engine available to properly execute an idea, it will get scrapped. Simple as that. Money is a pretty big limitation on what you can do as well. If I only had a hundred dollars for my voice actors, I'd end up with some pretty disappointing results. If I invested maybe $10,000 in the VA department, I'd have a better end product.

Talent is great, I agree. But even if you have the most talented humans alive with no capital, you'll have nothing. Simple as that. Designing a game and following through are two different ideas altogether.

But even if you invest $10,000 dollars in the VA department, if you get people who don't know what they are doing, especially the voice director you can still end up with a disappointing product. For example, millions are spent on Hollywood movies, doesn't mean they all turn out incredible or have amazing plots/design. The ones that do well have a sleak design and solid story telling/pacing done by the right people with the right ideas. Money doesn't always guarantee you will get an amazing end product.

So I'm going to have to disagree with you.

[Q. Valintyne]

Totally wrong. If you don't have the technology or engine available to properly execute an idea, it will get scrapped. Simple as that. Money is a pretty big limitation on what you can do as well. If I only had a hundred dollars for my voice actors, I'd end up with some pretty disappointing results. If I invested maybe $10,000 in the VA department, I'd have a better end product.

Talent is great, I agree. But even if you have the most talented humans alive with no capital, you'll have nothing. Simple as that. Designing a game and following through are two different ideas altogether.

But even if you invest $10,000 dollars in the VA department, if you get people who don't know what they are doing, especially the voice director you can still end up with a disappointing product. For example, millions are spent on Hollywood movies, doesn't mean they all turn out incredible or have amazing plots/design. The ones that do well have a sleak design and solid story telling/pacing done by the right people with the right ideas. Money doesn't always guarantee you will get an amazing end product.

So I'm going to have to disagree with you.

The voice acting was only an example. I never said money "guaranteed" a great product. It does help, however. Especially when you need better equipment; that shit ain't free. Like I said above, you could have the most talented individuals in their respective fields and no money at all. Even if you had this, nothing would get made. Simple as that.

Let's say Team Silent agreed to rejoin and work on a game together. Konami has one stipulation: make a game for under $100. That is borderline impossible. The team wouldn't get a good salary, they couldn't invest in new technological breakthroughs, and they couldn't develop a good marketing campaign.

That's just how things work. Capital is needed for any project... no matter the scale.