I was wondering...

[SiLeNt_DaRkNeSs]

How does the Seal of Metatron have no effect on God? I remember Claudia saying the seal of Metatron had no effect to God before the last boss. I figured that either the object was not a real seal, it has to be put on something, or the symbol had to be created by a special material. What do YOU think???

[Purramid_Head]

I think the seal was used incorrectly. In sigil magic you have to make them yourself. Notice Alessa's incomplete seal did have an effect on God. People tend to chalk it up to the placebo effect, but it's pretty concrete magic works in the Silent Hill series. Heather didn't believe the in the incantation, yet it worked. Certain types of magic have a certain set of rules you have to go through in order for it to work correctly.

[captain crowbar]

Maybe somone involved didn't believe in the magic, so the town's spiritual properties didn't empower it.

[Purramid_Head]

Also, this recently came to my attention. Alessa's seal and Leonard's are not the same.

Leonard's:


Alessa's:

[Augophthalmoses]

I guess that could explain Claudia calling the one Heather had a piece of junk. *shrugs*

[SiLeNt_DaRkNeSs]

That is reasonable.

[Shadedarkan]

Actually, I specifically recall, though I can't remember which game, something stating "The reason god failed to be birthed 'that time' was because He used the seal of Metatron to interfere with the ritual. That won't happen this time". I'm pretty sure this is a conversation between Claudia and Vincent in SH3 which makes it rather interesting that the seal does nothing at the end.
If I am remembering all this correctly, it would imply that Claudia's influence on the Otherworld and/or knowledge in the Order's rituals and rites allowed her to render the seal impotent.

[Purramid_Head]

People will deny all supernatural, except that Claudia and Heather have powers won't they? The Order has been using "black magic" on people for years. They caused the deaths of people before the events of 1 and possibly Origins. Dahlia doesn't have "powers" like Alessa does. The seal was used incorrectly and isn't exactly the same print from 1. The Order as a whole doesn't value the seal and Dahlia didn't know it was being used until much later in 1. If the Order doesn't normally use that in their magical workings and it's of little value as a whole to them, it explains why Claudia sees it as junk. Furthermore, the little powers Claudia has is limited to manipulating peoples' hearts, triggering shifts, and her sight. It's not like she has Alessa's power which was much more godlike.

[Shadedarkan]

I don't recall the Seal of Metatron actually even being in the first game unless it was one of the Five Rites used to open the sealed door in Alessa's room at the end. The first reference I recall is in Silent Hill 2 somewhere.
The seal appears in all the Silent Hills over and over again though. My belief, though I can't substantiate it, is that this type of magic is taught as a stepping stone to more powerful forms. With most of the Order being low level members it would explain why Claudia sees it as being worthless. As we know, all forms of 'magic' can be counteracted or nullified with the right tools and forethought.

[Purramid_Head]

Have you played the first game? Alessa uses it to kill herself and God and almost succeeds but is thawarted by Dahlia using Harry to get close to her. The seal is all over the game, from the beginning. Dahlia even mentions it.. "I never realized the tailsman of Metatron was being used" in the last sequences of the game. The seal is in 3, it's why Heather knows that mark and recovers memories of Lisa in the hospital. It's a spell of annilihation.

[Shadedarkan]

Have you played the first game? Alessa uses it to kill herself and God and almost succeeds but is thawarted by Dahlia using Harry to get close to her. The seal is all over the game, from the beginning. Dahlia even mentions it.. "I never realized the tailsman of Metatron was being used" in the last sequences of the game. The seal is in 3, it's why Heather knows that mark and recovers memories of Lisa in the hospital. It's a spell of annilihation.

I have played the game. The DLC just two weeks ago while waiting for Downpour. I noted a series of differences between the DLC and the actual PS1 game so I'll go back and play the PS1 version. There was no reference to the Seal of Metatron while I played the DLC version of SH1. Dahlia mentions, in the church, that the symbol all over town is the Mark of Samael and that was last time the symbol was mentioned. Of course, even though I did everything necessary to save Cybil in that run through the game never gave me the required items so I didn't get see anything Dahlia might have mentioned to her. Dahlia definitely doesn't mention she was unaware of its use. That would make absolutely no sense when she was fully aware of it when you first meet her.

I just replayed every Silent Hill game over the last three weeks before Downpour showed up in the mail. I wanted to make sure I was up to date on the stories.

[Purramid_Head]

Actually I directly quoted Dahlia and can show you the video to prove she DOES in fact say that. The 'mark of samael' is a red herring.

[ERROR]

>The Order has been using "black magic" on people for years. They caused the deaths of people<
Not really. Dahlia forced Alessa to use her powers to kill those people.

>Dahlia mentions, in the church, that the symbol all over town is the Mark of Samael<
The Mark of Samael and the Talisman of Metatron, as it's called by Dahlia at the end of the game, are the same thing. Its true name is the Virun VII Crest.

[JaneTheNurse]

Wasn't there also something mentioned about how the Seal is very powerful but very hard to control? I'm kind of thinking this means something akin to if you don't have the know-how and the power of will, it won't do jack squat. So maybe it is very powerful, but maybe Claudia knows Heather won't know anything about how to actually put it to use.
In other words, she might have called it junk just to try and convince Heather and Vincent that it was worthless. Sort of a psych them out tactic.

[Shadedarkan]

Wasn't there also something mentioned about how the Seal is very powerful but very hard to control? I'm kind of thinking this means something akin to if you don't have the know-how and the power of will, it won't do jack squat. So maybe it is very powerful, but maybe Claudia knows Heather won't know anything about how to actually put it to use.
In other words, she might have called it junk just to try and convince Heather and Vincent that it was worthless. Sort of a psych them out tactic.

You are correct on this. According to the book Vincent gives Heather in the Chapel Library, "This magic square with strong protective and dispelling properties, is called the 'Virun VII Crest' or the 'Seal of Metatron'. It will bring results regardless of whether the target is good or evil; its strength, therefore, places a very high burden on the caster. As it is also difficult to control, it is not usually used."
It is not that the seal is worthless in and of itself, it is worthless in the hands of someone who cannot wield it. Heather has regained many of Alessa's memories by the time you get to the end of the Chapel, but she still hasn't displayed any of the power that Alessa had at her command in previous Silent Hills. I would imagine it is safe to say that Claudia already knew that Heather wouldn't be able to use it.
I would also like to observe that, although Leonard's and Alessa's seals don't quite match if you take the outer ring of Leonard's seal and rotate it 180 degrees you get a much closer look to Alessa's. I don't think exact matches of the seals matter in terms of the story of the game, however.

On a side note. I was in error in an earlier post about when Dahlia tells Harry about the Mark of Samael. She does not tell him in the church, but in the hospital before sending you to the antique shop. However, the Seal of Metatron's first and only reference is mentioned during the dialogue before the Incubus fight. Without having played SH2 or SH3 one can only assume that the Mark of Samael and the Seal of Metatron are the same thing.

To say that Claudia and Dahlia did not have powers is a little foolhardy. In SH1, Dahlia is portrayed much like a witch. She casts spells and uses magical objects to affect an outcome. Claudia is seen to be able to cause Otherworld shifts at will and control entities, something akin to an enchantress. As well, both Dahlia and Claudia can navigate the Otherworld as easily as they do the real world with no seeming threat to their lives. I will admit, they do not have the level of power that Alessa has, but power they do have.

[Purramid_Head]

>The Order has been using "black magic" on people for years. They caused the deaths of people<
Not really. Dahlia forced Alessa to use her powers to kill those people.

Although I agree Alessa was used to kill people, there is no proof she killed many of the people mentioned in LM's timeline. With the SOM, Dahlia's involvement, and the influence of Kabbalah among other occult things it's a pretty safe bet they're capable of using magic and have for awhile. Specifically, the fact Dahlia knew of aglaophotis and that Koshiki mentions they believe the roots of demons are not far removed from the god they believe in. Since dabbling with demons in mainstream Christianity is a no-no, especially in Protestantism and some forms of Catholicism, the cult is also into the occult. There's enough evidence, and the fact that they use Alessa to kill people, especially through the "astral plane" this is nothing more than a form of magic. The books in the prison cells in 2, one of which is in the church's library in 3 and the fact both Leonard and Caudia know what the crest is with out having full knowledge of the events of SH1 leads me to believe that the cult does indeed practice magic and it includes black magic. If they didn't practice black magic there would be no need for an "evil entity' (incubus) to come into contact with a saint in order to bring about God's descent in the immolation ritual.