About Maria [spoilers]

[gustavopi]

I dont have the Maria's part on my DVD, so I watch a Walktrought (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o6EiM7rQtds) about. Maybe just see is not enough to understand, I'm more confuse than before.

So Maria is not only in James mind. She was some hocker that look like Mary that kill herself and got caught by Silent Hill. Now she's used to disturb James... Used by who? And what about Ernest? He ask for the white liquid but the bottle remains in Ernest's house... is the same we found in the apartment?

I don't know if I'm disapointed with this part or didn't get the message. She drop the gun over the wall where Laura like to play, hope didn't fall over hers head...

Anyway, I didn't like this thing of "Gods". I end in Rebirth but the game ends before really rebirth Mary, and now we don't see Amy's rebirth... better luck next time!

[NarooN]

Nah, Maria is created straight from James' subconscious, from his desire to see Mary again as well as representing some of the things that Mary wasn't. While she looks just like Mary, she acts differently. She's not really being used by some mythical off-screen character -- if anything she's technically being used by James himself. This is what he wanted, after all.

As for Ernest, I loved that little mini-plot. It's implied that the body you see outside of the mansion might be Ernest's corpse. Maybe he tried to venture to the apartments himself for the liquid but was murdered by a monster? Anyway, he says he can't leave, which means he's a ghost confined to that house. He was in a deep depression over losing Amy, so he tried to do a ritual, most likely the same ritual James would later try. I dunno why the liquid is still there later, maybe he found peace when he got her message that Maria gave him and no longer wanted to try it anymore, so he was freed from the mansion or something. Would make sense because he never did find that message before Maria came along.

I love the fact that the ending cuts without showing the results of the ritual though. One of the devs said that he'd like to think that Mary would be successfully reborn, but try to kill James anyway. Pretty dark and adds a new twist to the ending.

[emma]

yess... my thoughts is maria finds out her self as a "ghost"...so that's how she get's there in her "own other world "as i guess to find him (him=james) and have another chance....
in the beginning ..she looks like she is reborn again like ....she didn't even remember any thing about it! so she had to find that out for her own self way!.........in the end when she finds out that !..she had to chose on choosing which way to live with it [the revenge way]! or [the leave it alone way]! yeah that's what i understand about maria part
i also liked the shorty story too ^^!

[gustavopi]

I love the fact that the ending cuts without showing the results of the ritual though. One of the devs said that he'd like to think that Mary would be successfully reborn, but try to kill James anyway. Pretty dark and adds a new twist to the ending.

This ending will be cool!

I just end with Maria. I was thinking about the good or bad value of those endings. It seams that the endings are more like new beginnings, so there is no point showing more, like Mary's rebirth. Is a decision he made in final confront. Maybe Maria is the best ending because is acceptance of life. She coffs in the final, a sign that life is always a challenge, and we got to be ready!

But I'm still analyzing...

[TheRedNurse]

Weeel, according to the Silent Hill Wikia [No flames plz] Maria "could be seen as some sort of reincarnation or ghostly form of Mary, as a supernatural and possibly sinister creature of unknown origin, or some combination of these."

[NarooN]

The Maria ending mainly shows that James didn't learn anything from all of this and Maria coughing signifies that the cycle will continue, an endless spiral.

[gustavopi]

The Maria ending mainly shows that James didn't learn anything from all of this and Maria coughing signifies that the cycle will continue, an endless spiral.

I like your first explanation about Maria in this topic, but I don't think he end just like he starts. When he confront PH, he's already a man he should have been when Mary got sick. He's not a scary boy anymore. The ending, to me, is more a matter of a decision he made. Course, the player will give a value to his decision - this is a point of the game that I like a lot!

I only end 3 times: Water, Rebirth and now Maria. This was different because Mary was siting on the bed, instead looking outside the window, and she was jealous! Interesting was that the final music was "The Promise", the same of SH1.

[gustavopi]

Weeel, according to the Silent Hill Wikia [No flames plz] Maria "could be seen as some sort of reincarnation or ghostly form of Mary, as a supernatural and possibly sinister creature of unknown origin, or some combination of these."

I like to have a look at this wiki, they have done a good job there, but it's only a reference, and I already got some discrepancies. I don't think the creators wanna close this question: who or what is Maria? They want our perception. I don't see her as a demon, but as a lost soul of Silent Hill captured by James drama. The kid is more antagonist at the beginning, but in fact she is innocent - a child that needs an father that James is incapable to be.

[Purramid_Head]

She's born from a wish, but a wish from who? Maybe a combination of James and Mary. Mary felt guilty because she was so ill and couldn't be there for James and James was obviously sexually fustarated. I see her a bit on the same level as Heather is to Alessa. If you think in terms of reincarnation they're different people.

[gustavopi]

The "who" seams to be the town. Silent Hill became cursed after decades of horribles events and "she" call people like James, as Eddie told "- the city call you too...". In other topic, the consensus was James is alive and Mary is dead. Maybe that's why the producers didn't go on with Rebirth ending, messing with the bases of the game.

I was listening to all endings in youtube, and Maria is really a different one. All the others end with James breaking up with Maria. Let's see:

In The Water (I am a puppy crying): He don't want Maria and can't go on without Mary.

Leave (I'm gay or I'm tired and need a drink, outside...): He don't want Maria but go on with his life - the very real ending to me.

Rebirth (I have many names... huahuahua...): He don't want Maria and uses the city's power to get Mary back - he beats the city!

Maria (I'm Pyramid Head): He, at last, want Maria (out of men on this city) and forgive he's own guilt - the plus ending because shows, at the end, that life goes on with life's problems too!

So Maria is a special character, half ghost, half Jame's mind.

[Venithil]

Since I have already wrote like a milion words in my own theory topic [And, apparently, it was too much to read. If the OP is interested, just check the 10 main points at the end of that topic - viewtopic.php?f=21&t=432941], i will just summarize and correct what I disagree on.

She was some hocker that look like Mary that kill herself and got caught by Silent Hill. Now she's used to disturb James... Used by who? And what about Ernest? He ask for the white liquid but the bottle remains in Ernest's house... is the same we found in the apartment?

1. Maria was a dancer at a "gentleman's club", not a hooker. There's a difference. SH3 confirms that there really was a dancer named Maria at the Heaven's Night, only that she originally looked somewhat less like Mary. Maria's memories (or at least those she seems to have) seem to have some continuity with those of a real Heaven's Night dancer, as she talks about some people that she has met before (but now "they're gone").

2. I'm lead to believe Maria's original purpose is to lead James' down the "remember what you've done, try to cope with it and survive" road together with everything else in Silent Hill, but since she possesses wishes and a shade of a personality of her own, she is killed repeatedly to serve that purpose better - it purges her of the remains of her own personality. In Maria ending only, the town re-adapts to the situation, given that James seems to want Maria more than other things.

3.There are a few possible explanations of the white bottle : Maria returned it to where she found it upon finding that Ernest was a ghost, Ernest returned it to it's rightful spot for James to find it upon using it/finding out he has no use for it, or whatever malevolent or benevolent entity wants people to use the rite of Rebirth produced more of the liquid especially for James.

The Maria ending mainly shows that James didn't learn anything from all of this and Maria coughing signifies that the cycle will continue, an endless spiral.

Which is just presented as a possibility in Translanted Memories and the fact that it stands on Silent Hill wiki just seems to make it the most common interpretation.

ALL of the endings are in fact quite open-ended (In Water least so, Rebirth the most so) and can be developed in both a positive and a negative direction.

She's born from a wish, but a wish from who? Maybe a combination of James and Mary. Mary felt guilty because she was so ill and couldn't be there for James and James was obviously sexually fustarated. I see her a bit on the same level as Heather is to Alessa. If you think in terms of reincarnation they're different people.

I think Maria exhibits enough of Mary's personality, memories and attachments out of thin air that we can presume Mary has had some input into her creation directly, but whether it was willingly or unwillingly we don't know. It is in fact quite possible that their relation is quite similar to that between Alessa and Cheryl or Heather. Would fit all the moths and butterflies motifs.

It is my personal belief that Maria contains part of a once living person which has been called upon by Silent Hill for a specific purpose and is slowly being re-built or "upgraded" to serve that purpose. Mary and James both had a strong influence on her, however, but in different ways and she is, if only partially, Mary's reincarnation or contains some of her spiritual legacy.

Also, if we go with the scenario in which James kills Mary and almost immediately takes himself (and possibly, her body) to Silent Hill, it'd actually make chronological sense if Maria awoke/was created in Heaven's Night just moments after Mary died.

[gustavopi]

You have done your homework! Good that you summarize your "book" for us. But you may try to synthesize in key points of Maria.

She is dressed like a hooker, not a dancer, maybe a singer. It's not really different TO ME. What's important is she works at night in a club to men (reminds me Blue Velvet) or whatever want to see her. What's happen to her before the scene when she's with a gun thinking about killing herself? How she know about James?

In Maria's ending (witch now seams really different from others) he kind confess some "outside life", probably at night in bars or night clubs. I venture to say they meet in the night when Mary was dying. He doesn't remember as he doesn't remember much of recent past (not even Laura), but he felt. And I think she blow's up her's own head with that gun in a depression crisis.

[Devoured]

Well, she's dressed like Christina Aguilera, who has never confessed to being or having been a hooker in any way that I know of lol...maybe some time I can bring myself to read Venithil's full original post but I think I sort of agree, or at the very least that they made that ambiguous to leave us wondering and put the reference in SH3 to reinforce that. It's not something we'll ever know for sure, and it goes without saying that there is very little left of the original Maria if it's true. Mary was understandably very depressed and wanted to just get it over with, so it's not too hard to imagine why Maria would be suicidal. I have to disagree with Venithil on when Maria came to be 'alive' though, I think it's the beginning of the game when James looks in the mirror at the rest stop, it makes much more sense chronologically and IMO it's when the psychosis fully kicked in :

He kills Mary -> is sorry, has to do something -> takes her to SH to keep his promise -> gets to SH but she's giving him the cold shoulder, then what? -> stares into mirror, invents cock and bull story -> monsters, PH & Maria begin appearing.

I'm not sure how James confesses to an outside life, what exactly does he say, gustavopi? Also, I'm pretty sure it's confirmed in some way that James & Laura never met before, so he wouldn't have remembered her. Laura would know James because Mary told her about him and she's probably seen him in at least pictures. It's also likely that James did visit Mary at least once in the last year (since Mary met Laura) and Laura did see him then, but turned away because she didn't want to meet him cause he's a total dick.

[gustavopi]

Well, she's dressed like Christina Aguilera, who has never confessed to being or having been a hooker in any way that I know of lol...maybe some time I can bring myself to read Venithil's full original post but I think I sort of agree, or at the very least that they made that ambiguous to leave us wondering and put the reference in SH3 to reinforce that. It's not something we'll ever know for sure, and it goes without saying that there is very little left of the original Maria if it's true. Mary was understandably very depressed and wanted to just get it over with, so it's not too hard to imagine why Maria would be suicidal. I have to disagree with Venithil on when Maria came to be 'alive' though, I think it's the beginning of the game when James looks in the mirror at the rest stop, it makes much more sense chronologically and IMO it's when the psychosis fully kicked in :

He kills Mary -> is sorry, has to do something -> takes her to SH to keep his promise -> gets to SH but she's giving him the cold shoulder, then what? -> stares into mirror, invents cock and bull story -> monsters, PH & Maria begin appearing.

I'm not sure how James confesses to an outside life, what exactly does he say, gustavopi? Also, I'm pretty sure it's confirmed in some way that James & Laura never met before, so he wouldn't have remembered her. Laura would know James because Mary told her about him and she's probably seen him in at least pictures. It's also likely that James did visit Mary at least once in the last year (since Mary met Laura) and Laura did see him then, but turned away because she didn't want to meet him cause he's a total dick.

Well, Cristina Aguillera as other celebrations uses men's fantasies to made a looking. You may prefer Britney with her's virginal look... :-O

Let's hear the dialog James x Mary in the Maria's ending:

Mary: James, I’ve been waiting.

James: Mary... I’m sorry it took so long.

Mary: Didn’t you want to see me?

James: Yes, I wanted to see you. Even an illusion of you.... That’s why I
came here.

Mary: That’s not true, is it? You killed me...

James: I couldn’t watch you suffer.

Mary: Don’t make excuses, James. I know I was a burden on you. You must
have hated me. That’s why you got rid of me.

James: It’s true... I may have had some of those feelings. It was a long
three years... I was... tired. <<< He is about to confess...

Mary: And that’s why you needed this “Maria” person? <<< She got the message!

*Mary gets off the bed and stands up next to James.*

Mary: James, do you really think I could ever forgive you for what you did? <<< She's kinda mad like a cheated woman, not because he killed her, but because Maria!!!

[Devoured]

Well, it's sort of important that Mary's behaviour differs in each ending as she is reacting to the way James has acted since her death [which is supposed to represent the player's personality]. She would get mad over Maria in the Maria ending, as it involves James being rather quick to jump on Maria after his wife's death, following her, a cheap floozy compared to calm, bible-fed Mary, around like her lapdog instead of doing everything he can to be reunited with the love of his life. Anyone with half a brain would be at least a little suspicious if their lover has apparently risen from the grave, 3 layers of cheap hair-dye and 1 Christina Aguilera outfit later, so a very simplistic Freudian conclusion would be that James aka the player cares mostly about riding a hot chick than keeping his promise to his wife. The game does nothing to make you trust Maria initially, James says she's not Mary after just a few seconds, and was actually gonna leave her around the park to go looking for Mary some more, it's not until the prison scene that James actually acknowledges that Maria 'is' Mary. The Maria ending is the hardest to obtain if you ask me, so if you start obeying Maria's will right from Rosewater Park and throughout the rest of the game enough to get the ending, it's supposed to say something, about James/you, and Mary's Maria-directed anger is a reaction to that, IMO...

[gustavopi]

Not sure if I understood your opinion right... Personally, I found Maria very attractive and I'd work hard to get her final in hard-hard mode. I do not dislike Mary, but she is dead! If I play well, take a little care of Maria and go straight to the end, I will be with her because it's the natural way of life (assuming that Maria is a little symbolic). I prefer a living woman, the dead ones are cold and didn't do anything...

[Devoured]

Wait, what? "The dead ones are cold and didn't do anything"...?

But Maria is a fake, there's something very wrong with her and James knows it. As indicated in the very beginning, James is there in Silent Hill to keep a promise to his wife, not to score some promiscuous stripper chick. Her behaviour is less than charming and borders on hysterical. I dunno, I'm sorry but I think pretty much everyone would agree that the Maria ending is probably the worst of the original endings, since it requires the player to go out of their way to keep believing in the illusion and it's implied that Maria awaits the same end as Mary...

[gustavopi]

Ok, without some sarcasm, I prefer Maria by a personal preference that was formed during my experiences, after several endings. Might be not rational, maybe not the main choose of players, but Maria is a VERY discussed character for sure. There is something wrong with her, and she will die some day - like everybody else!

[Venithil]

Wait, what? "The dead ones are cold and didn't do anything"...?

But Maria is a fake, there's something very wrong with her and James knows it. As indicated in the very beginning, James is there in Silent Hill to keep a promise to his wife, not to score some promiscuous stripper chick. Her behaviour is less than charming and borders on hysterical. I dunno, I'm sorry but I think pretty much everyone would agree that the Maria ending is probably the worst of the original endings, since it requires the player to go out of their way to keep believing in the illusion and it's implied that Maria awaits the same end as Mary...

There's an entire topic dedicated to try and challenge that point of view you have here
So, not everyone.

Well, it's sort of important that Mary's behaviour differs in each ending as she is reacting to the way James has acted since her death [which is supposed to represent the player's personality]. She would get mad over Maria in the Maria ending, as it involves James being rather quick to jump on Maria after his wife's death, following her, a cheap floozy compared to calm, bible-fed Mary, around like her lapdog instead of doing everything he can to be reunited with the love of his life. Anyone with half a brain would be at least a little suspicious if their lover has apparently risen from the grave, 3 layers of cheap hair-dye and 1 Christina Aguilera outfit later, so a very simplistic Freudian conclusion would be that James aka the player cares mostly about riding a hot chick than keeping his promise to his wife. The game does nothing to make you trust Maria initially, James says she's not Mary after just a few seconds, and was actually gonna leave her around the park to go looking for Mary some more, it's not until the prison scene that James actually acknowledges that Maria 'is' Mary. The Maria ending is the hardest to obtain if you ask me, so if you start obeying Maria's will right from Rosewater Park and throughout the rest of the game enough to get the ending, it's supposed to say something, about James/you, and Mary's Maria-directed anger is a reaction to that, IMO...

You're oddly judgemental of James' behavior. As I tried to explain many times, James can save/help Maria. He couldn't do it with Mary. It's the way he is - fundamentally a good person with something of a protective instinct. He tried to do the same thing with Angela, and there was no attraction nor sexual tension between him and the dark-haired teenager. He isn't "quick to jump on her", he developed some sorts of feelings that were confusing even for him. As What once pointed out in the topic I gave you a link to, whenever Maria tries to adress James' with her sexuality, his response is one of confusion and discomfort - it's trying to communicate with his protective instincts and kind nature that have the effect of him protecting her.

Also, there's a difference between feeling attraction to a more open and alive version of your dead wife and trying to "ride a hot chick". At least, I'm seeing one.

As for Mary's behavior, it is done to create a sense of completion for James. In Rebirth, Leave and In Water, Maria is ultimately demonized for being the "distraction" to his reconnection with Mary and him trying to find out the truth again. In "Maria", Mary is demonized and presented as a challenge in order for James to be able to finally decide what he wants, as well as realize he can live without her, as well as make him realize that the final years of her life (where he was drinking heavily and she pretty much acted like a witch whenever they talked) ruined their relationship and it was no longer the love they once shared.

Not sure if I understood your opinion right... Personally, I found Maria very attractive and I'd work hard to get her final in hard-hard mode. I do not dislike Mary, but she is dead! If I play well, take a little care of Maria and go straight to the end, I will be with her because it's the natural way of life (assuming that Maria is a little symbolic). I prefer a living woman, the dead ones are cold and didn't do anything...

A very worldly take on things. But, in James' shoes, given the fact that he truly loved Mary at some point, it's more complicated than that. Maria's resemblence to Mary and her presence in Silent Hill, which is weird in and of itself, create a lot of emotional confusion for James.

[Devoured]

I'm not sure how James helps Maria in the game, the only thing he really does is spend time with her, for a small part of the game, which I'll agree is something he couldn't do for Mary, but he never saves her, she dies several times completely out of James' control and even in the Maria ending it's likely she'll be gone in about 3 years.

In the end it's a matter of perspective and to some people it might seem better to face reality & committing suicide, the other might think you're better off living a lie. With no knowledge of what's going to happen, the only thing the game is telling the player is that James is there to keep a promise to his wife, which he does in both the In Water & Rebirth endings. The Leave ending is something that no one could have foreseen and while not exactly your mission, it's the ultimate hommage to Mary. As I pointed out before, the only ending that really contradicts all direction is the Maria ending. James confirms she is not his wife. James does not automatically want to take Maria with him, she damn near forces him. James has to go out of his way to obtain the ending. In this respect it is the most negative one, to put it very simply you don't keep your promise, you don't face reality, you leave Laura to rot and in all likelihood all this was just dodging the blade [the cough], if you got the Maria ending you basically did everything but what the game directed you to do. But it depends on what you want to focus on, the little booklet that informs you how to obtain the ending also phrases it like it's the ultimate sacrifice for true love, but it does this for all the endings. The thing is that it's all designed for the endings to cater to what you as the player think is the best way out, and every one will have different reasoning, and as far as that goes, I don't think they really meant to have Good and Bad endings to SH2.