There is more than what we see in 1 & 3 - Survivors

[Purramid_Head]

I am making this topic because I have yet to see a single person discuss this.

This is using solely in game sources, no supplementary material will be used.

The center of my argument is the possibility that there are cult members who know what really happened in Silent Hill 1, that are never seen.

In this scene, you only see Dahlia watching Travis about ready to go in there and save Alessa:


You'll notice no one else is seen with Dahlia.... But the memo in 3 in the hospital (The memo is titled Book of Lost Memories and is found where the candle altar is.) talks about this ritual where the victim is burned alive and that only the clergy are allowed to participate, sinners and criminals are banned.

BUT WAIT!



Travis confronts Dahlia and tells her that "they" left her to burn! Dahlia retorts "So we did." She goes onto say "Alessa is with those who care about her."

I know what you're thinking... "But Xuchilbara that doesn't prove anything!", it has a point. The point is none of these other people Dahlia and Travis are talking about are seen, at all. This is important. Especially later on. If you don't consider Origins canon, it actually doesn't matter.

Let's fast forwards seven years...



The unknown two people here knows what is going on, this confirms the memo in 4 asking if they found Alessa yet.

This all happens before 1, but... The only people who know what happened and survived are Harry and technically Heather. Kaufmann is gone, Cybil is dead, Dahlia is dead, Cheryl merged back with Alessa, right?

No, there had to be other people.

Fast forward to SH3, 17 whole years later....

Vincent fishes for information about what happened 17 years ago in Silent Hill 1. In this tape recorded conversation with a cult member she talks about a "group of pagans" and Vincent seems to be disappointed in her story. Why would that be? Does he have information about what really happened?



Vincent has an idea when the events of 3 unfold that he knows what is really going on. He is confused about how Heather doesn't know what is going on. Though the tape recording suggests the seal of Metatron was being used, no one could know that unless they were there. Specifically, that Alessa used it against God.

It doesn't matter what ending you get Dahlia will say she was shocked the Metatron seal was being used:


This means it was a recent realization and you only see this being used correctly in Silent Hill 1. It was just left unfinished.

You play SH3 and Vincent knows to use it against the "false" God and tells Heather to use it, although he doesn't completely understand how to use it himself.

If that isn't proof that somehow Vincent gathered enough evidence to piece together what really happened off camera, perhaps this picture will:


Notice in the back ground it depicts the other world of Silent Hill 1. Whomever carried on this legacy and painted this picture, or had it painted, knew that the events of the ending happened. The baby and the otherworld depict the events of 1. There's also proof in the fact the cult knows that Alessa reincarnated that, this must mean someone saw these events off camera or more than one person. There was no way they could have known other wise. Specifically, that Alessa reincarnated and gave the baby to Harry, which at this point they knew him lest he would not be in hiding with Heather. Even his name and where to find him. This only makes sense if there were other survivors.

[Augophthalmoses]

Well, I'd hope everybody would have came to this conclusion. I mean how else would anybody know about the events concerning Alessa unless there were other people? Lisa even seems to hint at this with the way she says "everyone (or everybody can't recall the exact word she said) was involved in some queer religion." Typically when most people use the words "everybody" or "everyone" like this we all know it's hyperbole referring to a large amount of people. So kind of hinted that it was something deeply rooted into the community and when you keep that in mind it had to have involved more people than the ones we saw in SH1.

So I don't see how anybody else could not have caught onto this especially after SH3 released and established there were other people looking for her even after Kaufmann and Dahlia died (and I guess Lisa, but she was already dead anyway...).

[Pyramid_Heart]

Well, I'd hope everybody would have came to this conclusion. I mean how else would anybody know about the events concerning Alessa unless there were other people? Lisa even seems to hint at this with the way she says "everyone (or everybody can't recall the exact word she said) was involved in some queer religion." Typically when most people use the words "everybody" or "everyone" like this we all know it's hyperbole referring to a large amount of people. So kind of hinted that it was something deeply rooted into the community and when you keep that in mind it had to have involved more people than the ones we saw in SH1.

So I don't see how anybody else could not have caught onto this since especially when SH3 comes along and establishes there were still people looking for her even after Kaufmann and Dahlia die (and I guess Lisa, but she was already dead anyway...).

I've always assumed that Claudia just had psychic visions of the events, which is what inspired her to reform the order in the first place.

[Mercury]

I didn't come to this conclusion until recently. It must have flown over my head. haha I always assumed that the only people you saw were the only people that were there. I'm glad that Origins elaborates a bit more on this, showing the coven that worked alongside Dahlia.

[Purramid_Head]

With the added supplementary material, the doctors and nurses are real people who were "parasitized" and Mercury and I were discussing this.. Apparently that would mean these people were missing irl, and no one said anything? I think it's a plot hole its never mentioned again after 1. Something they forgot about.

The other thing was the cult member Harry killed before 3 that "discovered" Alessa before Claudia. I think this person used their "sight", the one that is not physical, to see her and try to capture her. But how would he recognize it was her with out the events of 1? This person had to have either 1st hand knowledge or 2nd hand.

[Pyramid_Heart]

With the added supplementary material, the doctors and nurses are real people who were "parasitized" and Mercury and I were discussing this.. Apparently that would mean these people were missing irl, and no one said anything? I think it's a plot hole its never mentioned again after 1. Something they forgot about.

The other thing was the cult member Harry killed before 3 that "discovered" Alessa before Claudia. I think this person used their "sight", the one that is not physical, to see her and try to capture her. But how would he recognize it was her with out the events of 1? This person had to have either 1st hand knowledge or 2nd hand.

As for the doctors and nurses in part 1....Two theories here.

A) After the game ended, most of them went back to normal. The events would be forgotten or recalled as a nightmare. I imagine most of them would probably carry on, while some would go crazy. Silent Hill has a lot of mental hospitals for a reason.

B) People go missing all the time in the town. I think people have gotten used to it. Plus, it was Kaufmann's hospital and everyone there was probably working under threat of retaliation anyhow. Anyone who would talk is probably dead or was a creature.

[Augophthalmoses]

I didn't come to this conclusion until recently. It must have flown over my head. haha I always assumed that the only people you saw were the only people that were there. I'm glad that Origins elaborates a bit more on this, showing the coven that worked alongside Dahlia.

It's just one of those weird things that has to do with system and storyline limitations that was common in a lot of games at that time (and even other survival horror games). Like in RE1 you know STARS is a big organization but you're only able to interact and speak with a few select people from the team while everybody else is just dead or zombified.

There just wasn't enough time and resources to flesh out everybody in the entire organization so they only limit us to seeing a handful of people. Plus, if you have too many people in the storyline it can detract from building the background of others.

Pretty similar to how Dino Crisis is apparently set in some place doing high security top secret research yet we only encounter a handful of actual scientists and only a few bodies of security officials.

I figured that the cult was larger than the actual members we saw in SH1. I was just so used to other games only showing us a few people from whichever organizations are featured in whatever game I was playing because this practice was the norm at the time due to limitations on how much the development staff could implement in the games.

[Mercury]

With the added supplementary material, the doctors and nurses are real people who were "parasitized" and Mercury and I were discussing this.. Apparently that would mean these people were missing irl, and no one said anything? I think it's a plot hole its never mentioned again after 1. Something they forgot about.

The other thing was the cult member Harry killed before 3 that "discovered" Alessa before Claudia. I think this person used their "sight", the one that is not physical, to see her and try to capture her. But how would he recognize it was her with out the events of 1? This person had to have either 1st hand knowledge or 2nd hand.

Unless they had powers like Alessa, which it's pretty much shown is exclusive to Alessa and Claudia. Claudia couldn't even find Alessa without the aid of a detective.

It could also be possible that once the Flauros was used, Dahlia was able to bring the coven into the otherworld, possibly on another layer resulting in them seeing but not being seen. It could even be similar to SH3 where Vincent forces his way into the otherworld ("Go home Vincent!" and yet he remains until death).

@P_H: Those are the conclusions I drew as well. I think the possibility of the staff coming back is unlikely as Harry killed them just as he did Cybil, but I also think it's possible that not all of the staff was actually killed. Maybe one shift was only affected. In that case, you'd have the second theory where people are weirded out by the disappearances, but it just gets swept under the rug.

@Augo: That's probably a huge reasoning for it as well. It's always funny going back and forth between theories and then realizing that a lot of it is largely graphical limitations or something to cut corners, like South Vale in SH3 (although like Xuch has mentioned, it serves a purpose in the story too, as the memories of Alessa would flood back too sharply had she visited Old Silent Hill).

[Purramid_Head]

Unless they had powers like Alessa, which it's pretty much shown is exclusive to Alessa and Claudia. Claudia couldn't even find Alessa without the aid of a detective.

Its not exclusive to them, Dahlia had powers too. So I would think other people as well. Maybe not as powerful as Alessa though. I won't even get started on Walter, the conjurer.

It could also be possible that once the Flauros was used, Dahlia was able to bring the coven into the otherworld, possibly on another layer resulting in them seeing but not being seen. It could even be similar to SH3 where Vincent forces his way into the otherworld ("Go home Vincent!" and yet he remains until death).

Actually he dies and his body disappears.

[Mercury]

I meant after the fact. Dahlia was dead and Alessa was gone, so it'd either be Claudia or some unknown person. I'm not sure if Walter had any other tie to the Holy Woman/Saint Ladies sect beyond Dahlia visiting him.

That's what I meant. Claudia doesn't want him around and yet he remains. He doesn't actually go away until he's killed and his body is gone, meaning that he was probably there by his own will. I'm sure if he was able to "force" his way in, other people could as well.

[Purramid_Head]

I meant after the fact. Dahlia was dead and Alessa was gone, so it'd either be Claudia or some unknown person. I'm not sure if Walter had any other tie to the Holy Woman/Saint Ladies sect beyond Dahlia visiting him.

I think he is of the Valtiel sect and trained in the clergy, as Jimmy put Val in him. He never kills anyone from the HW sect but he uses a ritual from the HM sect so that should give you an idea.

That's what I meant. Claudia doesn't want him around and yet he remains. He doesn't actually go away until he's killed and his body is gone, meaning that he was probably there by his own will. I'm sure if he was able to "force" his way in, other people could as well.

Maybe he did, it could have been Claudia brought him in because of her feuding and its done at a subconscious level.

[Mercury]

Maybe he did, it could have been Claudia brought him in because of her feuding and its done at a subconscious level.

That's most likely what's going on, I think. I still think forcing yourself into the otherworld is definitely possible, but it's probably more difficult for someone like Vincent who has no power and isn't really being willed to appear. The only thing that strikes me as odd is that Claudia tells him to leave and he doesn't. That tells me that she can't make him leave and that either he refuses to leave or he can't either and he's bluffing, which supports your idea that she would be holding him there subconsciously.