Why was Lisa punished?

[Purramid_Head]

Origins fails in another respect, too: the 'origins'.

The entire point of an origin story is to take an event, or events, we know as backstory from previous games and expand on them, to give us a better perspective on what happened and why. What Origins did amounts to little more than a mere recap. We see Alessa get broiled, we see that her mom was probably the culprit, we see that she's in league with Doctor Kaufman, we see that Doctor Kaufman is dealing drugs, and we see that Lisa is using them.

We already knew all this.

But we did not know Lisa was involved with Kaufman to the extent she was, how Alessa split herself, or the use of Flauros to do so.

[what]

No, but none of that knowledge is very important. They give us a mechanical understanding of some of the processes, but was it really necessary to know how Alessa split her soul, or that Kaufman used sex in addition to drugs to work over Lisa? Those are neat details, but my understanding of Silent Hill's events are none the better for having a whole game built to show them to me. They're not even important to Travis.

[xavier95]

They're not even important to Travis.

The best example of why Travis should've had his own game that had nothing to do with Alessa, and Origins should've had nothing to do with Travis, either. Should've been two different games.

[Deadalux]

How can Lisa be the Fukuro lady if Lisa has brown red hair, and the fukuro lady has black hair? Seriously, who the hell is that girl and why is Valtiel molesting her?

[Pyramid_Heart]

How can Lisa be the Fukuro lady if Lisa has brown red hair, and the fukuro lady has black hair? Seriously, who the hell is that girl and why is Valtiel molesting her?

The same way that James has blond hair and not a giant rusted triangle helmet, and Walter actually wasn't a giant monster stuck to a wall that you had to kill with spears.

I dunno if anyone brought it up, but Lisa is dead. Origins suggested she died of an overdose.

[what]

I dunno if anyone brought it up, but Lisa is dead. Origins suggested she died of an overdose.

Where is this? I don't remember any actual indication of her death previous to Silent Hill. I'm allowing for the chance I missed something.

[Purramid_Head]

I think she's dead in SH1, there is a indication she is a ghost in her words and the memo Manifestation of Delusion. Plus, Lost Memories, and her actions towards Kaufman. Whether she died in origins or not is up for debate.

[what]

I've never interpreted any of that as her having died.

"Manifestation of Delusion" is the scrap about poltergeists, right? Poltergeists are invisible spirits which act like dicks and toss your shit around. Lisa is nothing like that. The nurses and doctors are real people drawn into the Otherworld and parasitized, the same way Cybil is later on; if she's 'the same as them', it would indicate that she was alive when everything started. Her actions toward Kaufmann are understandable because he was pretty terrible to her, her death isn't necessary to explain her act of vengeance on him.

I don't think she actually dies until the end of the first game, and maybe not even then, not really.

[devil hunter]

Yeah, I also think she was dead the whole time. When she starts bleeding and Harry gets freaked out and gets out of the room. When you decide to go back Lisa isn't there, just that memo. She's probably some kind of a ghost, since she disappeared like that. It wouldn't be the first time that we encountered ghosts or something like that.

[what]

Harry disappears like that himself, as Cybil finds out when she follows him into the "other church".

[devil hunter]

Didn't he end up in Otherworld town when he disappeared? Can't remember.

[what]

Yeah, and I don't think that's what happened to Lisa, but you are in Nowhere. Physical congruity is somewhat reduced there.

Besides, she does appear later, appearing to be as physical as she ever does, when she climbs out of the floor and goes o hai kaufmann.

[devil hunter]

Ghosts in 4 could grab Henry in 4, Ernest from Born From A Wish scenario probably also grabbed some stuff Maria gave to him, like that birthday card, we never see him though.

[what]

Maybe, but their status as ghosts is pretty obvious. I just don't see it with Lisa.

[Purramid_Head]

Either way, What, she is dead by the end of SH1. Her spirit resides there after the events. SO even if you don't believe she was a ghost at those points, she is by the time she takes Kaufman and resides there for 17 years.

"Poltergeist" btw simply means "noisy ghosts" and Lisa is "noisy".

[Mercury]

I'm not sure how punished she actually is. From when you see her in SH3, she seems to be dormant or like she's incubating. Xuch and I have talked about this and I think it's possible that she's being "cleansed" for reincarnation.

I dunno if anyone brought it up, but Lisa is dead. Origins suggested she died of an overdose.

It could be overdose, but I think the tape in SH1 is a dead ringer for murder. I used to think it was a tape of her confessing alone, but I'm thinking now that it might have been a recorded conversation with Kaufmann. The blood on the tape would most likely be her's.

[what]

Either way, What, she is dead by the end of SH1. Her spirit resides there after the events. SO even if you don't believe she was a ghost at those points, she is by the time she takes Kaufman and resides there for 17 years.

I think, by the time she assumes her appearance as Nurse Hemorrhage, it's a matter of semantics whether she's dead or undead or alive in some strange way. It's not something I would even try to guess at. Clearly, she's not whole anymore, and that's all that matters.

"Poltergeist" btw simply means "noisy ghosts" and Lisa is "noisy".

I'm pretty sure the poltergeist mention was a reference to Alessa having mental abilities which could manifest in physical ways. I'm certain it has nothing to do with Lisa. Whatever the term literally means, the general concept of poltergeist phenomena doesn't involve ghosts which pretend to be alive. They usually involve things moving around with no apparent cause.

I do not believe, even a little, that Kaufmann murdered Lisa. There's no basis for it.

[Purramid_Head]

Either way, What, she is dead by the end of SH1. Her spirit resides there after the events. SO even if you don't believe she was a ghost at those points, she is by the time she takes Kaufman and resides there for 17 years.

I think, by the time she assumes her appearance as Nurse Hemorrhage, it's a matter of semantics whether she's dead or undead or alive in some strange way. It's not something I would even try to guess at. Clearly, she's not whole anymore, and that's all that matters.

"Poltergeist" btw simply means "noisy ghosts" and Lisa is "noisy".

I'm pretty sure the poltergeist mention was a reference to Alessa having mental abilities which could manifest in physical ways. I'm certain it has nothing to do with Lisa. Whatever the term literally means, the general concept of poltergeist phenomena doesn't involve ghosts which pretend to be alive. They usually involve things moving around with no apparent cause.

I do not believe, even a little, that Kaufmann murdered Lisa. There's no basis for it.

If you consider the memo in the subway in Silent Hill 3, it'll make more sense to you what I am trying to say.

[Pyramid_Heart]

Lisa isn't being punished, she's punishing herself. It just means that all the sadness and pain she felt has anchored here there. She can never leave. That's a pretty classic interpretation of a haunting. Only in Silent Hill, the concepts of spirits, ghosts, spectres and all that are up for debate, because the otherworld has proven to be something that defies human culture and understanding. It is all things and none of them. Calling them ghosts isn't wrong, but it isn't entirely accurate to the series.

I believe Lisa is 'gone'. That's the best way to describe her. Her body isn't dead and buried and she isn't lurking in a hospital going "BOO!" to people. She's unrecoverable. Same for Angela, and maybe James, depending on your ending.

[Augophthalmoses]

I'm pretty sure the poltergeist mention was a reference to Alessa having mental abilities which could manifest in physical ways. I'm certain it has nothing to do with Lisa. Whatever the term literally means, the general concept of poltergeist phenomena doesn't involve ghosts which pretend to be alive. They usually involve things moving around with no apparent cause.

I do not believe, even a little, that Kaufmann murdered Lisa. There's no basis for it.

Pretty much this. I never once interpreted that particular section of The Monster Lurks as having anything to do with Lisa as it always seemed more befitting of Alessa's situation.

I can see where some people get the idea Lisa might have been murdered. The movie before the title screen shows her and Kaufmann quarreling and later one we learn she wishes to quit claiming "she won't tell a soul".

So you could say Kaufmann killed in her in attempt to keep a possible leak quiet since he didn't completely trust her, but there's nothing in the game or anywhere that suggests something like this so it remains only a theory.