Why was Lisa punished?

[xavier95]

In both the Fukuro movie and SH3, Lisa is shown as a monster-like figure being punished by the town. I want to know why. I know she took the drug, but Michael Kaufmann distributed it and had a hand in the rituals. Why did she deserve to turn into a monster and die horribly instead of Kaufmann who deserved it more? It has to be something other than Alessa not liking Lisa's haircut. You'd think Lisa would be let go and Kaufmann would be Pyramid Head's toy.

[mumbler]

This is what I wrote in the other thread:

I'd like to add that maybe Lisa is being punished in Alessa's mind, because she regards Lisa as the one keeping her alive even though she would rather be dead, despite the fact it was actually Dahlia's black magic that rendered her unable to die. Bear in mind that the otherworld is Alessa's mental projection. The way I see it, Lisa's spirit isn't really being punished by the town. It's just Alessa's imagination.

[xavier95]

That is a good point. I came up with another possible theory. You know the end of that one video of Lisa talking about the wounds that wouldn't heal and all that? Did it seem to anybody else that she was suggesting maybe killing Alessa to put her out of her misery? It seemed to me like there was a slight hint. When she says, "I won't tell a soul". I thought that maybe Alessa saw Lisa as the only person who treated her well and the only real friend. Everybody else in her life betrayed and hurt her, so maybe she felt betrayed by Lisa and had her punished, whereas Kaufmann never got close enough to he to betray her. We have to remember that a seven-year-old sees things differently.

[what]

Not sure why Alessa would punish Lisa for keeping her alive, because Lisa wasn't doing any such thing. Alessa wasn't able to die, regardless of what Lisa did or did not do. Her main goal in the first game is magic-bombing her way out of the mortal coil.

If anything, Lisa's attentions helped take some of the knife's edge off Alessa's suffering, hence why Heather offered a markedly positive opinion of her.

I believe Lisa's suffering is the result of her own problems, the guilt she feels as an accomplice, however unwilling, to Alessa's sufferings, and her lost battle to drug addiction. As I believe she died, or at least degenerated, in the Otherworld (and not in the fan-fictional nonsense idea that she's a ghost or manifestation of a girl Kaufman murdered some unknown time before), the idea that she is subject to eternal torment there via her own feelings of guilt seems to make the most sense to me.

[xavier95]

So that's why Kaufmann wasn't punished in the same way, because he didn't feel guilty about what he did? That seems very possible.

[Kyle Purrenhage]

Not sure why Alessa would punish Lisa for keeping her alive, because Lisa wasn't doing any such thing. Alessa wasn't able to die, regardless of what Lisa did or did not do. Her main goal in the first game is magic-bombing her way out of the mortal coil.

If anything, Lisa's attentions helped take some of the knife's edge off Alessa's suffering, hence why Heather offered a markedly positive opinion of her.

That's what I thought too, because actually Alessa was kept alive by magic alone. Naturally it wouldn't even make sense for her to be alive, and I think that's what startled Lisa the most. She didn't know what was keeping Alessa alive.

I also had to mention that about Heather too. I was under the impression that she liked Lisa, not that she had any hard feelings toward her.

So that's why Kaufmann wasn't punished in the same way, because he didn't feel guilty about what he did? That seems very possible.

It makes a heck of a lot more sense.

[xavier95]

But in case of it being guilt instead of Alessa, we have to assume that Alessa, a seven-year-old, knew about the magic. She may have thought it was the hospital. Can anybody think of an instance which says whether she knew or not?

[mumbler]

Not sure why Alessa would punish Lisa for keeping her alive, because Lisa wasn't doing any such thing. Alessa wasn't able to die, regardless of what Lisa did or did not do. Her main goal in the first game is magic-bombing her way out of the mortal coil.

If anything, Lisa's attentions helped take some of the knife's edge off Alessa's suffering, hence why Heather offered a markedly positive opinion of her.

I believe Lisa's suffering is the result of her own problems, the guilt she feels as an accomplice, however unwilling, to Alessa's sufferings, and her lost battle to drug addiction. As I believe she died, or at least degenerated, in the Otherworld (and not in the fan-fictional nonsense idea that she's a ghost or manifestation of a girl Kaufman murdered some unknown time before), the idea that she is subject to eternal torment there via her own feelings of guilt seems to make the most sense to me.

I can accept that. But how come these feelings of Lisa are represented so much throughout SH3?
After all, she herself didn't have any direct impact on the otherworld did she?
Is what you're saying that she became part of the otherworld and therefore influences it that way?
Sort of like Joseph Schreiber? Granted Walter's otherworld is a completely different one than in SH1/3 or 2, but regarding this aspect I'd say they are very much comparable.

[xavier95]

Well... Alessa had an imprint of a memory in Silent Hill that wanted to destroy itself by fighting Heather, which it knew it couldn't win. Maybe Lisa died in SH1, but an imprint of the memories of guilt are still being punished. That could be why she looks like one of the monsters in both SH3, and Fukuro. After all, she said in the first game, "somehow I feel I'm not meant to leave this place." She didn't until after she became the monster.

[mumbler]

That's what I meant by becoming a part of or merging with the otherworld.
It's the only explenation I can come up with because otherwise, how else would she directly influence the otherworld if she's not part of Alessa's or Claudia's mind nor related to the demon god in any way.

[xavier95]

Yet the town itself had to have something to do with it. Not every guilty person becomes part of the town. I know Angela did, but what about James? He felt really guilty for something worse than Lisa. Angela felt guilty for killing her father, but he deserved it for being a monster himself. Probably has to do with your will to get out, also. I think you have to meet two requirements to get out of Silent Hill alive: first, you have to face whatever you did that brought you there; and second, you have to want to get out. Yet Lisa didn't want to be there... I'm just going in circles and confusing myself... happens at least once a day

[mumbler]

Fair enough, but I always thought the town or the spiritual power rather, only acts on its own accord like it does in 2 when there isn't anyone controlling it like in 1 or 3.
But that's just a guess of mine. Could be that Lisa was engulfed by the spiritual power as well.

[xavier95]

I always saw the town as having a benevolent mind. It can be controlled by the Cult, and that's what twisted it. It draws people in and teaches them a lesson. It doesn't judge, it just gives people exactly what they deserve. Harry Mason didn't have the darkness in his heart. I know the cult wanted him to help them catch Alessa, but this ended up working for Silent Hill's benefit, as the cult took a big hit. The town doesn't like the cult, or the white settlers in general, which is why the plague happened early in the history. Harry wasn't being punished since he was an utterly perfect dad in the first game. Kinda funny that they didn't introduce any character flaws to him until the third installment.

[Kyle Purrenhage]

Yet the town itself had to have something to do with it. Not every guilty person becomes part of the town. I know Angela did, but what about James? He felt really guilty for something worse than Lisa. Angela felt guilty for killing her father, but he deserved it for being a monster himself. Probably has to do with your will to get out, also. I think you have to meet two requirements to get out of Silent Hill alive: first, you have to face whatever you did that brought you there; and second, you have to want to get out. Yet Lisa didn't want to be there... I'm just going in circles and confusing myself... happens at least once a day

Do you think if Harry picked up Lisa and carried her away it would make a difference?
Nah probably not... I think it's as you said that people have to be willing to leave the town. From what it sounded like Lisa had her doubts about leaving, so even if she didn't want to be there she still thought she was compelled to remain there anyway. We knew she had a gripe about the place though and wanted to leave it; that's what we do know.

[JaneTheNurse]

Also keep in mind that Alessa was given all sorts of hallucinogens to make her suffer more. Perhaps Lisa administered them unknowingly, thinking they were actual medicine. Or maybe it's the Order's side of Silent Hill that's punishing Lisa for trying/thinking of acting against them. No one ever said Valtiel was exactly benevolent.

[xavier95]

I wonder why she turned into a monster right when Harry pushed her, though? At first, it looked like he made her hit her head. Maybe that's why, the added scare of making it look, if just for a second, like Harry hurt Lisa. I just had a thought... what if years later, Heather felt guilty about what happened to Lisa, and that's why the nurse figures keep appearing to her. By that time, she had no control over the town anymore, so it was irreversable. Kind of like when she finally remembered the Alessa part of herself in the church and decided she didn't want what she used to anymore.

[what]

It didn't happen right then. There was evidence of it when Harry first comes to in Nowhere--Lisa's lurking behind him, looking more than a little deranged.

I believe that Lisa is inherently tied to the [otherside], specifically at Alchemilla Hospital, and when the Flauros is used and the [otherside] begins to decohere and degenerate, so does Lisa. By the end, the [otherside] is literally falling to pieces, and Lisa has been reduced to a nearly mindless and incoherent monster.

[Kyle Purrenhage]

She was the only good thing in that otherworld--aside from the bag of jelly beans. I don't know what you think about it, but that's what I think... I didn't like how the game screws around with the player like that; but then you know the more I thought about it the more I realized that that's something the game creators were shooting for to begin with. (To get a reaction out of the player and to affect the player).

It didn't happen right then. There was evidence of it when Harry first comes to in Nowhere--Lisa's lurking behind him, looking more than a little deranged.

I believe that Lisa is inherently tied to the [otherside], specifically at Alchemilla Hospital, and when the Flauros is used and the [otherside] begins to decohere and degenerate, so does Lisa. By the end, the [otherside] is literally falling to pieces, and Lisa has been reduced to a nearly mindless and incoherent monster.

You're right, it's good you brought that part to our attention. And your theory seems sound as to why Lisa changed into a monster. She does show up near the end just as everything is falling apart. It makes sense for her to be exclusive to the otherworld only. We don't even see her at any other time in the game. (well, aside from the intro to the game); but at no other points during the gameplay that I can remember...

[Purramid_Head]

To expand on Lisa's connection to the otherside, I want to add some of my thoughts. Lisa was not this angelic person. She was a drug addict, which is a serious illness but it's also something she chose to be in her life. She may have been the only person to truly care about Alessa, but its clear that her drug abuse got in the way of her feelings towards Alessa. She could have done more, but she didn't.

Perhaps, Lisa threatened to go to the police about Alessa, Kaufman's drug dealings, and the order to the good doc himself. I find this more likely than him simply murdering her over drugs. (Also, I cannot exactly read her lips in the scene where they fight.)

In any case, I think Silent Hill is filled with unseen forces. (Although Homecoming at least proved God's existence.) Lisa's "punishment" is the result of her own doing in my opinion (Because the beings punish her accordingly.) and probably the fact she can't let go of her life and thus clings, causing suffering. Its probably an act of purification. A way of purifying her soul.

[Kyle Purrenhage]

I can't really agree nor disagree with the statment about her choosing to become a drug addict though. You know not everyone who gets hooked on drugs chooses to get hooked on them. Not everyone goes into it with the mindset of wanting to become a drug addict. I just thought I would mention that, because some of the people I know (whom are drug addicts) never thought it would come to that. They thought they could control it, but it spiraled out of control fast.

So why do you think there were goofy things that showed up throughout the otherworld -- like the jelly beans -- do you think Alessa probably liked them and that's why they were put there? Somebody mentioned that she liked to play cards and I remember that, because you discover that in the third game. I thought it was her favorite candy for some reason. I don't think it was just a case of one of the game creators having a craving for jelly beans, but then you can never tell.