Establishment of the Sword of Obedience and Saint Medallions

[Lobsel Vith]

As we know, both Joseph and Henry find the saint medallions, and the swords of obedience. There also seems to be some evidence that Walter knew of them as well.

(In the Prison world 2nd time, there's that note by who I assume is Walter, talking about stabbing 'Andrew' with the triangular sword.)

So, I'm wondering, when did these two objects come into existence?

Especially curious about the Saint Medallions, since those depict the image of St. Alessa on them.

[Purramid_Head]

I'm not sure about the swords. Only that obsidian has special properties in lore and ritual. I'm sure it's from those motifs they mentioned, and is prolly for rituals. Except they have something similar amongst the Aztecs called Macahuitl: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macuahuitl (my fave Aztec weapon.)

The amulets/medallions are curious. I would hypothesize they came from the Order.

[Lobsel Vith]

Where does it ever say that the swords of 'Obedience' are made of obsidian though?

[21121]

I have an answer but your not going to like it.


Yunno: This is Walter's World > His past and present exsist in the world, so do his beliefs > He was taught about the 5 swords of obidience and holy candels, and saint medalions at wish house ( I assume that was where Joseph picked up the info that he learned from) > They exsist in Wally's world.

Makes sense why there is only 5 of them.

[Lobsel Vith]

The swords I can see, but not the Saint Medallions. Alessa wasn't sanctified by the Order until 1987-1991. By that time, Walter was either in college, or he was starting the ritual.

[21121]

Saint medallions have a time limit?

You gotta explain that.

[Lobsel Vith]

The saint medallions depict the image of St. Alessa on them.

So either, the medallions came into existence after Alessa was sanctified, or else there's another St. Alessa.

[21121]

Oh. I never noticed. Like specifically to the point that you can tell? Cause it could be any woman at that point.

I would say it could be god, but they didn't think god was female until claudia took over right?

Odd. . . Yeah that one bit (if it is Alessa) doesn't make any sense.

[Lobsel Vith]

Nur Ein Tur has a hi-res image of the St. Medallion. The image is of St. Alessa, as depicted in the painting.

I'll see if I can find it.

[Mercury]

Not very big, but still very obvious.

[Lobsel Vith]

Thanks for the image!

[ERROR]

>Alessa wasn't sanctified by the Order until 1987-1991.
How do you figure?

[Lobsel Vith]

Going by your recent timeline.

In 1980, after the events of Silent Hill 1, the Order went into 'hibernation'. It wasn't until Vincent rebuilt the church seven - ten years later that it kind of came out of hibernation.

And, I also gather that it was during this time that the three saints were established.

Unless, the St. Alessa they're talking about is somehow supposed to be the original mother of God, mentioned in the myth paintings.

[ERROR]

>It wasn't until Vincent rebuilt the church seven - ten years later
The church wasn't built 10 years after the first Silent Hill. Remember: Alessa was forced to worship there as a child.

>I also gather that it was during this time that the three saints were established.
The St. Jennifer and St. Nicholas paintings could just as easily have been there before St. Alessa's.

I'm not disagreeing that Alessa was sainted during the reorganization, but people like to assume that all 3 of them were sainted at once. If that was the case, why didn't we hear about St. Nicholas and St. Jennifer before? They must have done something incredibly important during those few years of inactivity.

No, I believe those 2 were sainted long before Alessa.

[PyramidHead316]

I think it's like you said once, that the Holy Woman sect of the Order created them as a safeguard for if Walter started performing the ritual. We find that note about the ghosts and Walter's world, and that definitely doesn't sound like what the Holy Mother sect would say. They would sound thrilled that Walter was doing this. That note sounded horrified. I guess the Holy Woman sect really did see the Holy Mother as a devil.

The swords are a little more difficult. I don't think Walter created them, because why would he create weapons to stop the entities that could stop his enemies (the Receiver of Wisdom)? Unless he needed them at the beginning when he formed his world, when he wasn't as strong as he is now. I thought they were ancient swords, but I realize I had just mis-remembered what the game said (they're rare swords). But if the Holy Woman sect created the Saint Medallions, they definitely could have created the swords as well.

The only reason Walter would create the swords is if he wanted the game to last until the end (that of chasing a prey) and he had to kill Henry himself. Or Joseph, since he was also using the swords.

If that was the case, why didn't we hear about St. Nicholas and St. Jennifer before? They must have done something incredibly important during those few years of inactivity.

Jennifer as a figure in history was definitely there before Alessa. Remember the statue in SH2? Jennifer Carroll, who was a victim of persecution by the Christians. Whether she was a saint or not is debatable, but she was clearly a source of great reverence. So there's a chance she could have ben a saint.

Alessa definitely wasn't sainted until after SH1, though. Partly because Dahlia hadn't yet performed the ritual that would make her into a saint. I gather it's that mysterious occurrence in SH, and that nobody knew the truth about, that allowed Vincent to establish her as a saint.

>It wasn't until Vincent rebuilt the church seven - ten years later
The church wasn't built 10 years after the first Silent Hill. Remember: Alessa was forced to worship there as a child.

The church was expanded by Vincent. Whether that meant tearing it down or not, I don't know, but my guess is there was a small church there when Alessa was young, and then Vincent came along and renovated it into a huge church with his money.

[Lobsel Vith]

The church wasn't built 10 years after the first Silent Hill. Remember: Alessa was forced to worship there as a child.

That's not what I meant, and I think you know this.

After Silent Hill 1 the Order went into 'hibernation'. It was not until Vincent rebuilt the church (read: brought in more members to the church.) that the Order (or at least the Holy Woman sect.) came out of it's 'slumber'.

The St. Jennifer and St. Nicholas paintings could just as easily have been there before St. Alessa's.

Well, according to Lost Memories (or Silent Hill Chronicles) the saints were established either 'after the Civil War' or 'Recently'

I'm not disagreeing that Alessa was sainted during the reorganization, but people like to assume that all 3 of them were sainted at once. If that was the case, why didn't we hear about St. Nicholas and St. Jennifer before? They must have done something incredibly important during those few years of inactivity.

St. Jennifer is the one we see the statue of in Silent Hill 2. The only one we know nothing about is St. Nicholas.

But, anyways, this really doesn't answer my original topic.

No, I believe those 2 were sainted long before Alessa.

Great, I'm not arguing with that. Originally you asked why I thought Alessa was sanctified between 1987-1991, and I answered.

[Angel]

...the Holy Woman sect of the Order created them as a safeguard for if Walter started performing the ritual.

If the Holy Woman sect wanted to prevent Walter from performing the 21 Sacraments ritual, wouldn't they think of something better? Like killing him? No, these items were created for completely different reasons than stopping Walter. They are just ordinary items used by the Order that serve double duty in Walter's World.

The Swords of Obedience are very likely to be ritual items used by the Holy Mother sect, as Xuchilbara stated. Which ritual they were used for is unknown, but they were probably used to pin victims to the ground while being sacrificed, just like how they pin down the Ghost Victims. Walter would have learned about this and the SoO from the Holy Scriptures, which means that they are probably as old as the HM sect itself, and he might have even seen them used in whichever ritual(s) they were for.

The Saint Medallions are simply amulets created during the Holy Woman sect's resurgence after Alessa is sainted. They are similar to the medallions worn by some Christians, which fits with the whole Christian 'style' that the HW sect has adopted, and they serve the same purpose. The reason they repel the Ghost Victims and hauntings is because that is what they are supposed to do: protect their wearer from evil spirits.


So, to answer Lobsel Vith's original question:

The Saint Medallions were created during the resurgence of the Holy Woman sect and the Swords of Obedience were probably created when the Holy Mother sect was established.

[PyramidHead316]

If the Holy Woman sect wanted to prevent Walter from performing the 21 Sacraments ritual, wouldn't they think of something better? Like killing him? No, these items were created for completely different reasons than stopping Walter. They are just ordinary items used by the Order that serve double duty in Walter's World.

But they can't kill him. By the time they realized he was performing the ritual, it was too late. The guy killed 10 people in 10 days, and then killed himself in a prison cell. How the hell were they going to be able to stop him? And if this happened during the Order's dormant period, which it seems like it did, then there was no Holy Woman sect to stop him. By the time they reformed, Walter had already gone on his bloodbath. He disappeared for a while, so they might have thought it didn't work.

But once they realized he was alive, in some form or another, they knew they had to do something to counter him. If the God was descended by that method, it would screw up all their plans, and for all they knew, this wasn't their God, this was a devil, like they keep mentioning in the notes. I'm not trying to debunk your argument, I'm just offering an alternate take on what might have happened.

Not to mention, Dahlia might have lead Walter into believing that Room 302 was his mother so that he would perform the ritual, believing he would fail. Only, he didn't fail. He succeeded, at least with the first part. Perhaps Dahlia foresaw the path Walter's belief in his mother would lead him down, so she told him Room 302 was his mother. Walter was a threat to Dahlia's own plans for Alessa, so she encouraged him to carry out the ritual, perhaps believing he would get caught while doing the killings, or it just wouldn't work, period.

That might also be a reason why the Saint Medallions carry the image of Alessa. They're using the image of the Holy Woman's sect chosen one to counter this abomination's power.

[Lobsel Vith]

The Swords of Obedience are very likely to be ritual items used by the Holy Mother sect, as Xuchilbara stated. Which ritual they were used for is unknown, but they were probably used to pin victims to the ground while being sacrificed, just like how they pin down the Ghost Victims. Walter would have learned about this and the SoO from the Holy Scriptures, which means that they are probably as old as the HM sect itself, and he might have even seen them used in whichever ritual(s) they were for.

Except...

1. There is no mention of the swords being made of obsidian, like Xuchilbara claims

2. The only use for the swords is to pin down the ghost victims, because the swords have magical properties.

but they were probably used to pin victims to the ground while being sacrificed

That seems awfully redundant.

[Angel]

...if this happened during the Order's dormant period, which it seems like it did, then there was no Holy Woman sect to stop him. By the time they reformed, Walter had already gone on his bloodbath. He disappeared for a while, so they might have thought it didn't work.

Remember that the HW sect may have revived at any (unknown) time between 1987-1991. By saying that the items were created as a safeguard, you are implying that the HW sect was revived before Walter performed the 21 Sacraments ritual, or the items were created before the HW sect went into dormancy, which is impossible as Alessa had not been sainted yet. No St. Alessa, no Saint Medallions. They wouldn't have known that Walter was going to perform the 21 Sacraments, so there would be no reason to create the Swords of Obedience.

But once they realized he was alive, in some form or another, they knew they had to do something to counter him. If the God was descended by that method, it would screw up all their plans, and for all they knew, this wasn't their God, this was a devil, like they keep mentioning in the notes.

It could be entirely possible for the items to have been made after Walter had started killing people again, but what do you think the logic is behind creating these two items? An amulet to ward off evil spirits and blade with a spell scrided on it. The HW sect knew how to stop the 21 Sacraments, and you should know this. It says how in the "Crimson Tome", which you keep bringing up.

Not to mention, Dahlia might have lead Walter into believing that Room 302 was his mother so that he would perform the ritual, believing he would fail. Only, he didn't fail. He succeeded, at least with the first part. Perhaps Dahlia foresaw the path Walter's belief in his mother would lead him down, so she told him Room 302 was his mother. Walter was a threat to Dahlia's own plans for Alessa, so she encouraged him to carry out the ritual, perhaps believing he would get caught while doing the killings, or it just wouldn't work, period.

I don't really understand how any of this is relevent. If you are trying to summarize the ideas in the thread Dahlia's visit to Walter., then remember this:

Dahlia didn't teach Walter about the ritual. Walter was raised at Wish House to be a Conjurer and was taught the ceremony as soon as he was old enough because he exhibited powers that exceeded Alessa's.

Note that all of the children at Wish House were ordered to read "The Book," and that book details the ritual, so it's not like Walter and Dahlia were the only people that knew about it.

That might also be a reason why the Saint Medallions carry the image of Alessa. They're using the image of the Holy Woman's sect chosen one to counter this abomination's power.

That's precisely why the SMs work. They are amulets, and they were designed to work just like their Christian counterparts.

The Swords of Obedience are very likely to be ritual items used by the Holy Mother sect, as Xuchilbara stated. Which ritual they were used for is unknown, but they were probably used to pin victims to the ground while being sacrificed, just like how they pin down the Ghost Victims. Walter would have learned about this and the SoO from the Holy Scriptures, which means that they are probably as old as the HM sect itself, and he might have even seen them used in whichever ritual(s) they were for.

Except...

1. There is no mention of the swords being made of obsidian, like Xuchilbara claims

2. The only use for the swords is to pin down the ghost victims, because the swords have magical properties.

1. I only meant that they were used in rituals, not that they were made of obsidian.

2. Yes, that's the only apparent use for the swords in game.

but they were probably used to pin victims to the ground while being sacrificed

That seems awfully redundant.

Why are you criticizing my grammar? Offer a valid argument or something.