Discussion of PT and the canceled Silent Hills game.
 
 

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Will Kojima resurrect this franchise?

Post by Smiley on Thu Sep 11, 2014 10:12 pm

There really is no doubt to be found for Silent Hills. There's farm more optimism for the series now than there ever has been in the last decade. I'm only seeing irrational comments from those with poor taste in quality jumping on the defense. And if you have to defend shoddy gameplay and uninspired story-telling then what chance is there to salvage a sinking ship of a franchise?
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Will Kojima resurrect this franchise?

Post by DipDop on Thu Sep 11, 2014 11:44 pm

Kojima with Shinji ...interesting.

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Post by jam6i on Thu Sep 11, 2014 11:51 pm

I think the entire internet would collapse into a black hole if it turns out Hideo Kojima is teaming with Shinji Mikami for Silent Hills. The internet would literally cease to exist.

Poor Mikami...he's trying his best to make a troll-face. But you just can't out-troll-face Kojima.
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Post by Panko1 on Fri Sep 12, 2014 1:24 am

Sorry for the long and late reply.
Lain wrote:
jam6i wrote:It's still a gimmick. Like, I don't think even Kojima-san could pull off such a complex system with reliability or impressive results.
Kojima definitely couldn't. Nobody could. It's simply not possible to determine a player's real personality or psychological state of mind simply by their controller inputs or in-game actions.
How dare you people underestimate the psychic powers of lord Kojima? He is the biggest prankster of all time. Kojima on his MGS game did psychologically profiled the players in a deep and funny way. He used the old term "breaking the fourth wall." instead of the new "Psych Profile" term that SM reinvented. Team Silent probably learned to "break the fourth wall" on SH2 from Kojima's games.
Wikipedia/Fourth_wall wrote:Speaking directly to or otherwise acknowledging the audience through a camera in a film or television program, or through this imaginary wall in a play, is referred to as "breaking the fourth wall" and is considered a technique of metafiction, as it penetrates the boundaries normally set up by works of fiction. This can also occur in literature and video games when a character acknowledges the reader or player.
When the character acknowledges the player, the game profiles the player to at least tell if there is a player. The character that usually breaks the fourth wall in MGS is Psycho Mantis. Mantis looks like a Silent Hill character and got "otherworld" mind reading powers too, he also had a tragic story. If Kojima can create something like Mantis he can create any SH character. On this video Mantis "reads" the player's mind by telling what other games the player likes.Only God could "determine a player's real personality or psychological state", but again, Kojima did get very close on his MGS game. So maybe Kojima is a god or a mind reader? Neither, he just used psychology profiling, that's all. And he did "pulled off a complex system with reliability and impressive results" by doing so.
devil hunter wrote:Tell me, what in P.T. profiles you?
Nothing in PT profiles the player. Kojima decided to make the player psychologicaly profile the game instead by solving puzzles and using the same "psychological profiling" that a crime investigator would use to find a suspect by switching the role of the player as the investigator instead of the criminal. So the players are the one profiling the game this time, not the other way around like in SH2, but most players haven't realized that at all.

Kojima maybe thought that players would profile the main character before finishing the game and he was "unhappy" to see that a player did finish PT by accident without profiling anything. Kojima said that he "underestimated the players" but he was trolling with us again, the players are the ones that underestimated Kojima since no one still knows how to get to PT's ending every time they try, just as difficult when people try to get to the "Maria" ending on Silent Hill 2. That's how psychological profiling and Kojima plays with our minds.
devil hunter wrote:What kind of a sense that makes? I'm noticing a pattern here, start making sense Panko.

If people think it doesn't profile the player...then I dunno, it doesn't profile the player? Because if people doubt then it wasn't done well.

Again, nobody said anything about player profiling until Shattered Memories came out so all those talks about SH2 and player profiling are invalid.
And what kind of sense Silent Hill ever had, was the game supposed to be "easy to understand"? Not every player noticed how SH2 plays with their minds, because the game really plays with our minds. It took only a few to realize psychological profiling in SH2 and PT, and even after many have finished the game, some players can't believe that. That's how effective psychological profiling works and that's why is used against criminals, can criminals always tell how they get arrested? Would they know how they got profiled by the investigator? The same thing happens with the players and you have just confirmed that. Devil hunter would be like those criminals that don't understand how they got profiled in a psychological way that only the investigator would know.
devil hunter wrote:No, it doesn't have profiling, you just have to figure out how to solve a puzzle to finish the game.

That's like saying Tomb Raider profiles the player, you must use your brain and solve puzzles.
It is not that simple. The difference is how tricky and subtle psychological profiling is. It is unlike other puzzles or ways of profiling. Only a few can understand how SH2 and PT profiles the player.

Psychological profiling is not some kind of specific genre that came out from a Shattered Memories game as you think. It has been around for a long time just like psychology it self. It has turned into films, books, law and many things.
BBrad wrote:Psychological profiling can only truly be done in dynamic interactions between a professional Psychologist and a patient. Set questions/events that are predetermined by responses to prior set questions/events is an outdated method of psychological profiling, and frankly ineffective.
Indeed. That's because this is not psychological profiling at all. This is called Psychotherapy. The Psychotherapy performed by Dr. K's sessions on SM is different from psychological profiling. This wiki page calls this "Psych Profile" instead. Psychotherapy is a treatment to help patients to know themselves. Psychological profiling is a way to someone know you better than your self. SM could more likely be a "psychotherapy game" instead. but I'm not sure, I haven't played, but at least I know the difference about those two areas from psychology.

That is the most sense I can make of something so senseless like psychological profiling and I am tired of repeating that word. If some people still can't understand what it is, then there's no way for them to "psychological profile" the idea. But that's fine, It's the game developer that should know about that, and I believe that Kojima did a great job in bringing that back from SH2, the only difference I saw in PT is that the players psychologically profiles the character instead. Would be more like "What was father (the character) thinking when he killed his own family in PT?" instead of something like, "What would the player (not the character) think to give so much attention to Maria in SH2?" psychological profiling is the proper method used to answer both questions.

I don't know how SM uses profiling compared to SH2 or PT, since I haven't played or researched much about SM. So If some people like demon hunter prefer to think that SM is the one and only way of "psychological profiling" or "Psych Profile" as SM developers like to describe as a "game mechanic". Them maybe there is two very different types of profiling, the psychological profiling that psychologists know and the "Psych Profile" that the developers of SM "invented", and is pointless to argue or try to compare these two different types of profiling. If some people enjoy SM profiling better than the one from SH2 or PT, I respect their opinion, but no one should say that SH2 don't profile the player at all just because is different of the so called "Psych Profile™" from SM.
Last edited by Panko1 on Fri Sep 12, 2014 1:56 am.
 
 
 
 
 

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Will Kojima resurrect this franchise?

Post by clips7 on Fri Sep 12, 2014 1:41 am

No, nobody called it like that because SH2 simply isn't profiling anything. When SM came out some people were like: Hey, this is pretty good, possibly better than SH2 when it comes t-NO, SH2 CAME UP FIRST WITH THAT

SH2 INVENTED THE PROFILING SYSTEM YOU GOTTA LISTEN TO US!

TRUE SH FANS TRUE SH FANNNNNNNNNNSSSSSSSSSSSSSS


All i'm saying is that people are praising it's profiling system when it's painfully juvenille. Listening to Mary's letter in that long hallway, staring at the knife,....initialy you didn't know those actions was affecting your ending. For me that's a much better system than what was crafted in SM. It's not about which game came up with the concept first, it's about what game implemented it better.



Besides so what if it's obvious? It's still better. And not all things were obvious. First time playing you know everything that will affect the ending?



Of course nobody knows the ending of any game on their first playthrough, but when Harry started changing clothes and when other characters started changing, i knew what the game was doing and where it was going.


Besides your complaints there are the same things you can complain about SH2. Hypocrisy much?



How so?...i don't remember james magically holding PH's knife after i stared at the picture in that building right before you make your way to that underground prison, nor do i recall him transforming into a "player" or "pimp" or seeing his collar pop up after seeing him visit that Heaven's Night bar...
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Will Kojima resurrect this franchise?

Post by Borg on Fri Sep 12, 2014 1:47 am

Ehh, forget it, you simply can't fight insanity sometimes.
 
 
 
 
 
 

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Post by clips7 on Fri Sep 12, 2014 2:01 am

It's ok Hunter..just remove that "insanity" mental block from your brain and you will comprehend things a bit more clearly....:coffee:
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Will Kojima resurrect this franchise?

Post by Smiley on Fri Sep 12, 2014 2:34 am

It's his way of taking time off from all the reply backs he's gained. Fine by me. In the end, we can only really applaud the recent run of games for being so blatantly lackluster that Konami sought out their main man. That pic of Mikami and Kojima is equivalent to worlds aligning. Resident Evil hasn't been the same since Mikami left and now everyone's eager to play his new horror IP The Evil Within while Kojima on the other hand will be tackling survival horror for the first time with an established series.
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Post by Borg on Fri Sep 12, 2014 3:23 am

Lain wrote:The only thing that changes about him is his current mental state. Like if somebody who's a bit sad looks at a cute picture of a cat, they might get cheered up a bit. SM's style, however, is more like if they look at a picture of a cute cat they're now all of a sudden a crazy cat lady.


Seems like the opposite. James even states the he would never kill himself and he doesn't really show that he likes Maria that much, but all that suddenly changes in the endings.

Did those objects etc. really affect him that much?

Do those objects really change the way Maria and James would talk before the boss fight etc.? I mean, we didn't profile her and Mary in the very ending right?


Lain wrote:but simply because I was curious and inquisitive as to why I had these items in my inventory. Particularly the knife... I thought it was interesting that it was added to my inventory yet wasn't a weapon, so naturally I examined it.


That's pretty much the same thing.

Smiley wrote:So wait, now you're finally acknowledging that it's a rip off?


Of course I am ;)

You just want it to be a rip-off.

Smiley wrote:Story wise, it rips off too many things. The one thing they could have tackled well was the gameplay. Sadly, it had a lot of creative ideas to take the game in, but none of them are really implemented well.


And you let SH4 go, like it didn't do anything.

Smiley wrote:And if you have to defend shoddy gameplay and uninspired story-telling then what chance is there to salvage a sinking ship of a franchise?


What uninspired story telling?

Shoddy gameplay is the staple of the franchise.

Besides, are you seriously saying that people shouldn't like certain games in the series?

Panko1 wrote:Mantis looks like a Silent Hill character and got "otherworld" mind reading powers too, he also had a tragic story. If Kojima can create something like Mantis he can create any SH character. On this video Mantis "reads" the player's mind by telling what other games the player likes.


Sure, when I look at MGS characters I instantly think SH.

Panko1 wrote:Neither, he just used psychology profiling,


Reading a memory card does not equal "psychology profiling".

Panko1 wrote: So the players are the one profiling the game this time, not the other way around like in SH2, but most players haven't realized that at all.


Players didn't realize it because that's not what it is and I don't even know what you tried to say here.

Panko1 wrote:Kojima maybe thought that players would profile the main character before finishing the game and he was "unhappy" to see that a player did finish PT by accident without profiling anything. Kojima said that he "underestimated the players" but he was trolling with us again, the players are the ones that underestimated Kojima since no one still knows how to get to PT's ending every time they try, just as difficult when people try to get to the "Maria" ending on Silent Hill 2. That's how psychological profiling and Kojima plays with our minds.


Kojima was surprised that people finished it so quickly.

He never, never, never said anything about profiling, he didn't mention the word. That's something you made up.

Also, I can get Maria ending with no problem at all, you just need to avoid and sometimes do certain things.

P.T. isn't profiling, you just have to examine certain things in a correct way, that is, solve a puzzle to proceed.

Panko1 wrote:Not every player noticed how SH2 plays with their minds, because the game really plays with our minds. It took only a few to realize psychological profiling in SH2 and PT, and even after many have finished the game, some players can't believe that.


If it's something only rare individuals get then it doesn't exist because it would be common knowledge by now and more people would get it.

Panko1 wrote:So If some people like demon hunter prefer to think that SM is the one and only way of "psychological profiling" or "Psych Profile" as SM developers like to describe as a "game mechanic". Them maybe there is two very different types of profiling, the psychological profiling that psychologists know and the "Psych Profile" that the developers of SM "invented", and is pointless to argue or try to compare these two different types of profiling. If some people enjoy SM profiling better than the one from SH2 or PT, I respect their opinion, but no one should say that SH2 don't profile the player at all just because is different of the so called "Psych Profile™" from SM.


Thanks for putting words into my mouth and you're not even capable of writing my name right.

clips7 wrote:All i'm saying is that people are praising it's profiling system when it's painfully juvenille. Listening to Mary's letter in that long hallway, staring at the knife,....initialy you didn't know those actions was affecting your ending. For me that's a much better system than what was crafted in SM. It's not about which game came up with the concept first, it's about what game implemented it better.


If that's what it is then people should stop saying that SH2 profiles anything.

clips7 wrote:How so?...i don't remember james magically holding PH's knife after i stared at the picture in that building right before you make your way to that underground prison, nor do i recall him transforming into a "player" or "pimp" or seeing his collar pop up after seeing him visit that Heaven's Night bar...


About it being simple etc.

clips7 wrote:It's ok Hunter..just remove that "insanity" mental block from your brain and you will comprehend things a bit more clearly....:coffee:


Did you actually read some of the posts here?

Smiley wrote: Fine by me. In the end, we can only really applaud the recent run of games for being so blatantly lackluster that Konami sought out their main man.


Because your opinion is a fact right? Oh yeah, you're the same person who claims SM and Downpour did that and that despite other players and developers AND the games themselves claim otherwise. And you also think people shouldn't like some things from newer games.

So yeah, insanity.

Smiley wrote:. Resident Evil hasn't been the same since Mikami left and now everyone's eager to play his new horror IP The Evil Within


From what I've seen people complain about it looking too much like RE4 in places, are worried about the upgrading system, some think the aiming isn't so good, that it focuses too much on gore and sudden shocks etc.

As for me taking time off, pleaseee, I can do this forever and ever.
 
 
 
 
 
 

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Will Kojima resurrect this franchise?

Post by Panko1 on Fri Sep 12, 2014 6:26 am

You should try at least agreeing with your self.
devil hunter wrote:Also, I can get Maria ending with no problem at all, you just need to avoid and sometimes do certain things.
devil hunter wrote:You didn't mention how Maria ending is the hardest ending to get, very rarely people get it on first playthrough.
I was trying to agree with you about how hard was to get in the Maria ending on SH2 due to the profiling mechanism, but it seems you still found a way to disagree with me anyhow. Even if it takes to disagree with your self.
 
 
 
 
 

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Post by Borg on Fri Sep 12, 2014 7:22 am

You didn't read posts well, if you did you'd see that I wrote on that second post that "very rarely people get it on first playthrough". Once you know how to get it it's not hard.
 
 
 
 
 
 

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Post by Otherworld on Fri Sep 12, 2014 8:37 am

Seems like the general consensus here is that SH2 system works better for them. But to each their own. It is worth noting that SM did implemented some great things, and had a wonderful story. One thing is for sure. In SH2, in an otherworld created by the very psyche of the protagonist. The entire walkthrough goes hand in hand with James' (sorry Jam6i) profile. The real question here is ..... How could it not ????

Book of Lost Memories quotes ....

The materialization of the darkness that sleeps in peoples' hearts
In the town of Silent Hill, a power exists that gives discernable form to peoples' innermost thoughts. As for the otherworld that appears in the series, the town is not merely showing the characters their nightmares, but actually manifesting elements of their unconscious minds.

Furthermore, due to the large-scale shift to the otherworld that occurred in the first game, the town has become a great catalyst for the manifestation of peoples' unconscious minds.

It would seem that in the otherworld, time and physical limitations are transcended and peoples' thoughts are communicated.

C r e a t o r ' s C o m m e n t a r y

The shift to the otherworld that takes place outside the town depends entirely upon a unique power. The power that absorbs and reflects what people hold in their hearts is established as being exclusive to the town of Silent Hill.
(Hiroyuki Owaku)


Anyway ....

ComaWhite wrote:Kojima with Shinji ...interesting.

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Nice shirt Kojima !!! :D
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Will Kojima resurrect this franchise?

Post by PEACETALKER on Fri Sep 12, 2014 2:03 pm

devil hunter wrote:I didn't call SH4 a rip-off of SH1, I am not the hypocritical one.


devil hunter wrote:
Smiley wrote:Story wise, it rips off too many things. The one thing they could have tackled well was the gameplay. Sadly, it had a lot of creative ideas to take the game in, but none of them are really implemented well.


And you let SH4 go, like it didn't do anything.


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Post by jam6i on Fri Sep 12, 2014 2:25 pm

As for me taking time off, pleaseee, I can do this forever and ever.


This isn't a test of endurance. People are allowed to have opinions, even if you don't like them.

Maybe you could use the never-ending energy to find good things to say about the games, or even agree with people.
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Post by Naroon on Fri Sep 12, 2014 4:04 pm

Did this thread devolve into a typical Team Silent nut-rider circle-jerk fest since I last checked? Seems like it. Not gonna bother with those guys.

Not every player noticed how SH2 plays with their minds, because the game really plays with our minds. It took only a few to realize psychological profiling in SH2 and PT, and even after many have finished the game, some players can't believe that.


SH2 doesn't really play with your mind in that regard, in fact it hardly has anything that could constitute "psychological profiling". That system only makes sense in SH2 when you know for certain what you have to do to get the endings, in which case the "profiling" is rendered moot because it's not really a surprise anymore. Like I'm sure I pointed out earlier somewhere, players could potentially get endings they didn't desire due to totally random and arbitrary things they did in the game that they would've never known would have any effect on the ending they'd get. That's not "genius" nor is it "brilliant", and it's certainly not worthy of being labeled "profiling" by any means.

And I've seen several playthroughs of P.T. and didn't see any psychological profiling in it. I hope that doesn't become another buzzword and myth in this fanbase, because it's starting to get quite ridiculous.
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Post by PEACETALKER on Fri Sep 12, 2014 4:48 pm

NarooN wrote:Did this thread devolve into a typical Team Silent nut-rider circle-jerk fest since I last checked? Seems like it. Not gonna bother with those guys.


It's damn near impossible to criticize the new games and compare them to the older ones without being called a team silent fanboy. It's incredibly frustrating.
From what I recall, had Alessa successfully spread the crest throughout the town, the God would've been obliterated, or warded off. Instead Harry stepped in post-God-birth and murderized the shit out of the God. - NarooN
 
 
 
 
 

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Post by Naroon on Fri Sep 12, 2014 5:16 pm

It's not the fact that people compared the games, it's the fact that some people blatantly try to present their opinions as facts, which is what's actually frustrating. It goes both ways. Both "sides" do it. It's nonsense, but you can't really expect more from this fanbase.
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Post by jam6i on Fri Sep 12, 2014 5:52 pm

Why do there have to be sides? I enjoy all the games, regardless of who made them. They've all entertained me (even Origins and Homecoming, the ones I knock down a lot). I also think I would very much enjoy Book of Memories, even though I still think it's a terrible concept, because the game looks fun.

Don't make us look bad in front of Kojima. What's that?? oh.....

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Post by PEACETALKER on Fri Sep 12, 2014 6:14 pm

NarooN wrote:It's not the fact that people compared the games, it's the fact that some people blatantly try to present their opinions as facts, which is what's actually frustrating. It goes both ways. Both "sides" do it. It's nonsense, but you can't really expect more from this fanbase.


Fair enough, though I feel that honestly applies to most if not all fan bases ultimately.
From what I recall, had Alessa successfully spread the crest throughout the town, the God would've been obliterated, or warded off. Instead Harry stepped in post-God-birth and murderized the shit out of the God. - NarooN
 
 
 
 
 

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Post by Otherworld on Fri Sep 12, 2014 7:00 pm

jam6i wrote:Why do there have to be sides? I enjoy all the games, regardless of who made them.


Man oh man do I agree with this. I find it rather difficult to believe that we cannot agree that everyone is allowed to have an opinion. Anyone stating that their opinions are facts need to do some growing up as most of the time people are here to discuss their opinions and theories without bias. If someone's theory makes no sense as far as it being a direct contradiction of what the original creators has stated as fact that pretty much gets dealt with right away. But IMO we should encourage all to share their thoughts, opinions, and theories because that's what makes this franchise and it's passionate fans so great in the first place.

What better way to keep this community alive and kicking by ensuring that all are welcome to do just that.
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