I'm not as worried about BoM as other fans.... BUT,

[murphdaycake]

Ok. Let me be honest with you.

I'm excited about Book of Memories.

"GASP HOLY FUCK HOW COULD YOU EVEN THAT GAME IS AN ABOMINA-."

No, let me finish. I'm excited about it, yes. I believe it's a very good step in the right direction, because the developers are taking creative liberty to shake up the formula of a 13 year old series (something that had to be done eventually). However, one or two things still make me nervous.

According to Tomm, BoM is canon. That's all fine and good, but since there are monsters from previous games in BoM, including character specific monsters like Pyramid Head, how is that going to make sense within the context of the world of Silent Hill? Isn't it an accepted fact that P-Head really only belongs to James' mind?

I'm not upset about this development, as I'm sure the reason will be explained in the game (the game's being written by Tomm, and I'm pretty sure he knows what he's talking about), I'm just curious. My theory is that it's going to have something to do with the book itself. Maybe the book is manifesting the creatures from the minds of previous visitors to the town? After all it is a book of memories!

Do you guys have any other theories?

[Q. Valintyne]

As you already know (since you posted in this thread, the community is divided on the issue. We've toyed with many possible explanations in the thread above.

I just see this thread starting another war of silliness, but lets press on, regardless.

[murphdaycake]

As you already know (since you posted in this thread, the community is divided on the issue. We've toyed with many possible explanations in the thread above.

I just see this thread starting another war of silliness, but lets press on, regardless.

Oh, I apologize for starting the thread then. I really only read a few posts in the thread you posted above, and then just posted my opinion on the game itself. I'm sorry if what I did was rude in anyway. I can remove my post in this thread if you wish. I just got here, so I don't want to start any conflict, because we all know this fandom gets into conflict easily.

[Adam_WF]

"Isn't it an accepted fact that P-Head really only belongs to James' mind?"

No, it's a widely-accepted assumption (and some would say misconception).

[nur_ein_tier]

"Isn't it an accepted fact that P-Head really only belongs to James' mind?"

No, it's a widely-accepted assumption (and some would say misconception).

I thought it was an "accepted fact" that the specific PHead in SH2 belongs to James...

but I do feel that people are too hung up on that and forget that the executioners were around long before James, and RPT was only based on them, so it's quite possible for other incarnations based on the executioners to exist. Certainly, the executioners themselves are important to the town's history.

But that doesn't change the fact that too many instances of RPT seem to cheapen his impact.

However, because of the nature of this game, I can't really understand being bothered by it. It's not the same kind of game that Silent hill 2 is, by all accounts (Handheld, multiplayer, etc.).

[NarooN]

"Isn't it an accepted fact that P-Head really only belongs to James' mind?"

No, it's a widely-accepted assumption (and some would say misconception).

Pretty much this. The one in SH2 is tied to James in that it was spawned off for him, but the design and whatnot came from the town's past executioners and the cult (Jimmy Stone, was it?), so it's not like another incarnation of PH couldn't ever spawn off anywhere else given the apt situation.

[Q. Valintyne]

As you already know (since you posted in this thread, the community is divided on the issue. We've toyed with many possible explanations in the thread above.

I just see this thread starting another war of silliness, but lets press on, regardless.

Oh, I apologize for starting the thread then. I really only read a few posts in the thread you posted above, and then just posted my opinion on the game itself. I'm sorry if what I did was rude in anyway. I can remove my post in this thread if you wish. I just got here, so I don't want to start any conflict, because we all know this fandom gets into conflict easily.

By all means, ignore me. I'm not the forum police by any means. I was just giving you a head up just in case things spiraled out of control.

"Isn't it an accepted fact that P-Head really only belongs to James' mind?"

No, it's a widely-accepted assumption (and some would say misconception).

My brain just melted.

[Floodclaw]

I'm curious to see how it'll pull off revisiting past stuff as well, being canon and all. I'm sure the game will be fun.

[murphdaycake]

I'm curious to see how it'll pull off revisiting past stuff as well, being canon and all. I'm sure the game will be fun.

I definitely agree, I think the game will be very fun!!

"Isn't it an accepted fact that P-Head really only belongs to James' mind?"

No, it's a widely-accepted assumption (and some would say misconception).

Really? I remember Tomm saying in an interview that P-Head did belong solely to James. I don't mean for that to sound condescending or anything, I'm just pretty sure that he said that. I don't know how to word this without it sounding rude, ugh.

Pretty much this. The one in SH2 is tied to James in that it was spawned off for him, but the design and whatnot came from the town's past executioners and the cult (Jimmy Stone, was it?), so it's not like another incarnation of PH couldn't ever spawn off anywhere else given the apt situation.

That makes sense, but isn't that because James saw the executioner before hand, and then that image became P-Head in his mind? For example, in Homecoming, a variation of Pyramid Head just seemed to be there for no reason. Alex had never seen the town's executioner before (if he did, that plot point was never explored, so we wouldn't know), so how could he have came from Alex's subconscious? (Since I'm pretty sure that in Homecoming, P-Head was meant as a punishing figure towards Alex in the same way he was a punisher for James)

[Adam_WF]

Pyramidhead is there to punish James in SH2, but I have no idea why people extend that idea to Phead being created uniquely for James. As far as I know, that's not said anywhere. I suppose it's all open to interpretation (*shrug*) but where in any of the games does it ever say that all creatures are designed specific to those they torment, rather than pre-existing and being 'assigned' or 'cast' to them?

There are obviously some creatures whose designs are tied to specific life events (like the whole Abstract Daddy molestation/door thing). But there are many more creatures that don't really have any clever protagonist tie-in (Air Screamer, Insane Cancer) or keep showing up over and over, regardless of the protagonist (dogs, nurses, roaches).

Someone feel free to correct me if I'm missing some specific facet of the earlier games that counters this point. I'm saying that Phead is specifically James' tormenter in SH2, but that there's no reason to believe he (and variations of him) didn't exist in Silent Hill before and after that game's events.

Pretty much this. The one in SH2 is tied to James in that it was spawned off for him, but the design and whatnot came from the town's past executioners and the cult (Jimmy Stone, was it?), so it's not like another incarnation of PH couldn't ever spawn off anywhere else given the apt situation.

Eeeeeexactly. Again, it's all open to however you want to interpret it. But I think it IS open enough that people shouldn't light the torches whenever a creature gets reused. Or if you do, prepare to take those torches to SH 2-4 as well.

[NarooN]

Yeah. If people are gonna get bent out of shape over PH appearing outside of SH2 (not pointing at anyone in this thread btw, just the fanbase in general lol), they'll have to explain why we see nurses in almost every game in the series, and dogs, roaches, etc.

Some people used to think that only certain people can see certain creatures. I played thru SH2 a week or so ago and even in that game, there's a document you can find somewhere about a guy claiming he said "the red devil" or something. I believe there was one like that in SH4 as well? And then again in SH2, James could see Angela's monsters (though it's open to interpretation whether or not Angela saw the monstrous form that we did, or if she saw her real dad there).

There's soooo many instances where people see the same things that other people see in the games, so I can't really buy the whole PH-is-exclusive-to-James thing. It's not like James created the painting in the historical society, forgot about it, then subconsciously remembered it and that's how PH came about .

[murphdaycake]

Yeah. If people are gonna get bent out of shape over PH appearing outside of SH2 (not pointing at anyone in this thread btw, just the fanbase in general lol), they'll have to explain why we see nurses in almost every game in the series, and dogs, roaches, etc.

Some people used to think that only certain people can see certain creatures. I played thru SH2 a week or so ago and even in that game, there's a document you can find somewhere about a guy claiming he said "the red devil" or something. I believe there was one like that in SH4 as well? And then again in SH2, James could see Angela's monsters (though it's open to interpretation whether or not Angela saw the monstrous form that we did, or if she saw her real dad there).

There's soooo many instances where people see the same things that other people see in the games, so I can't really buy the whole PH-is-exclusive-to-James thing. It's not like James created the painting in the historical society, forgot about it, then subconsciously remembered it and that's how PH came about .

I don't think the red devil was referring to P-Head though. There's a character in SH4 that's referred to as the red devil as well. I think that document was meant more as the town itself foreshadowing P-Head. As we know, Silent Hill has the ability to manifest pretty much anything into existence. But like you guys said, just my interpretation, might not necessarily be true.

Also, I think that many people believe that certain monsters are exclusive to certain people because they just always have been. Minus Homecoming (seemingly, I may be wrong on this one), every SH game has had creatures that were created with the idea in mind that they tie back to the mind of a certain character, sometimes the protagonist, sometimes another character. I don't think the idea of Silent Hill having some stock monsters lying around seems very real, nor is it all that creepy. It's scarier to think that the town literally manifests your fears into existence, which is what the original developers seemed to have in mind.

1-4, Origins, Downpour, even Shattered Memories, had monsters that tied into a specific persons mind. Some of you brought up the nurses earlier. The nurses were brought back in many different games through out the series, yes, and probably because they were a popular monster (I'm tired of them, personally). But if you'll notice, each time they are brought in, their appearance changes slightly. That's because they are still a nurse monster, but certain things about them changed to fit with that protagonist. In SH2, we see a sexualized nurse to represent James' sexual frustration. But, in SH3, the nurses are not sexualized at all. Rather, they look more human, they have hair, and even guns, unlike the ones in SH2. They were also in Origins, but were given a syringe to fight with and their appearance was, again, altered. Even SH1 has nurse monsters, with weird bloody hunchbacks and they kinda just slide around. So yes, maybe it's true that a monster from a previous game could be brought back in to represent something different to that character, but unless it's actually representing something to that character, then why bother?

Now, maybe it's true that that has not always been the case in Silent Hill, but we don't know that. There has never been anything said in support of that theory or against that theory. Maybe Book of Memories should establish how monsters in Silent Hill are manifested? Then again, that could take away some of the mystery. But I still think it would be something cool to learn.

[Yuki]

If I remember correctly, the "Red Devil" comment in SH2 seemed to be referring to Pyramid Head, but was in fact referring to Walter Sullivan.



My only issue with repeated usage of Pyramid Head is that that type of character loses its impact. A big, imposing thing is fine, but repeatedly using a hulking pyramid-helmeted humanoid creature eventually stops surprising us and thus stops scaring us.

The creature itself did not belong to James. The specific one we see in SH2 did, but we know that it was conjured from James' mind as a result of his guilt, manifesting itself in that fashion because of the paintings he saw of the pyramid-headed executioners in the Silent Hill Historical Society. Canonically, it's completely sound to reuse a pyramid-headed monster, especially when the designs are changed for each character; hell, we've seen this with the nurses and the dogs. I take slight issue with the idea that the town manifests your fears and doesn't pull from a collective subconscious with that fact in mind, although I'd much rather see many different monsters rather than similar ones. Hell, I think the best way to proceed would be to reuse occasional similar designs, but overall come up with newer, original ones.


As for why the monsters are reappearing... if it's not just the town pulling from its previous inhabitants, it probably has to do with the Book of Memories. I'm not expecting a big plot out of the game, to be honest, but if it has one I'll be quite pleasantly surprised.

[Augophthalmoses]

I'll never understand why people complain that PH should be exclusive only to James, but nobody ever says a word about dogs and nurses appearing multiple times throughout the games.

The dog monsters first appeared in SH1 in relation to Alessa, right? So why do we see dog monsters in SH4 and Homecoming? In reality, the answer is simply reusing resources and a bit of lacking creativity. But what is so special about PH that people think he's the one that deserves the free pass and should not be able to manifest outside of James' psyche, but it's okay for other monsters to do the same?

Yeah, sure some people like to say "oh, but those monsters have differences from game to game, that means they're totally different monsters!"

They're still nurses and dogs when all is said and done. And like previously mentioned, you can have different Pyramid Heads. IIRC didn't Ito regard the PH he drew in that comic for Origins (the one with the Russian title) to be a different PH from the one in SH2? If that's the case, I see even less of a reason to complain about him reappearing from a canonical standpoint.

However, I DO dislike the idea of him reappearing for the same reason I'm sick of seeing nurses. If the monster reappears too many times, it loses its impact and becomes predictable.

But at least with this one, all the monsters from previous games will be together and perhaps we might see some new ones on top of that. And I personally like the redesigns of the Air Screamer and Demon Child better than in SH1. The Air Screamer in SH1 was just a Pterodactyl. Nothing incredibly imaginative.

[murphdaycake]

I'll never understand why people complain that PH should be exclusive only to James, but nobody ever says a word about dogs and nurses appearing multiple times throughout the games.

The dog monsters first appeared in SH1 in relation to Alessa, right? So why do we see dog monsters in SH4 and Homecoming? In reality, the answer is simply reusing resources and a bit of lacking creativity. But what is so special about PH that people think he's the one that deserves the free pass and should not be able to manifest outside of James' psyche, but it's okay for other monsters to do the same?

Yeah, sure some people like to say "oh, but those monsters have differences from game to game, that means they're totally different monsters!"

They're still nurses and dogs when all is said and done. And like previously mentioned, you can have different Pyramid Heads. IIRC didn't Ito regard the PH he drew in that comic for Origins (the one with the Russian title) to be a different PH from the one in SH2? If that's the case, I see even less of a reason to complain about him reappearing from a canonical standpoint.

However, I DO dislike the idea of him reappearing for the same reason I'm sick of seeing nurses. If the monster reappears too many times, it loses its impact and becomes predictable.

But at least with this one, all the monsters from previous games will be together and perhaps we might see some new ones on top of that. And I personally like the redesigns of the Air Screamer and Demon Child better than in SH1. The Air Screamer in SH1 was just a Pterodactyl. Nothing incredibly imaginative.

I totally agree with everything you just said, I also said that I was tired of seeing revisits of old monsters in my previous post. Trust me, you're not alone.

I take no issue with re-using old monsters if there's a concise plot reason for it. I think it's fair to say Silent Hill doesn't just have a bunch of stock monsters to throw at people. They ARE related to a specific persons' mind.

The fact that Pyramid Head/ any other monster is in BoM has no issue with me. I just hope and pray that there is a legitimate reason for it that is explained in the plot of the game. In a game like BoM, I can understand reusing monsters if there is a plot reason for their reuse. In the main series games, reusing monsters just seems lazy to me.

[Mercury]

PH's appearance is not limited to James, but the role and purpose of him in SH2 was. The best argument for all of these entities to keep popping up is residue and entities working from memories (the painting in the historical society manifesting from people's memories for instance). The residue argument is extremely apparent when looking at Silent Hill 1 and 3 and comparing it to 2.

[Purramid_Head]

The Pyramid Head is connected to the Valtiel. Why should it only appear to James?

[knwlss]

I think we can say that Valtiel and Pyramid Head is one and the same, but it looks different to different persons. For example, in SH0 there was the Butcher, who can be another incarnation of Valtiel. But the reuse of the exact Pyramid Head design is a wrong thing. It's based on the look of the town's executioners, but he doesn't look exactly like them. Not even near. See the picture from the basement of the SHHS. Pyramid Head is how Valtiel looks to James. If he appears to other people, he should have different looks based on their psychology. Not just a copy, because he looks great and cool and iconic and so on.

[Meltdown]

Le sigh.. Its for Vita only, isn't it? Well, this will be an expensive summer. I bought a PSP just for Origins, so I guess I'll buy a Vita.. Just for BoM...

[Yuki]

Le sigh.. Its for Vita only, isn't it? Well, this will be an expensive summer. I bought a PSP just for Origins, so I guess I'll buy a Vita.. Just for BoM...

I wouldn't ever buy a system for a single game. Take a look at all the other games coming out; maybe some of them can pique your interest. I know Gravity Daze is supposed to be pretty good, and Persona 4 Golden I know will be fantastic.