Playing the Devil's advocate

[Charles Phipps]

My opinion on the subject?

I agree with the OP on some points and disagree on others.

Silent Hill: Downpour is a work that isn't terribly disturbing in its imagery. I don't think that's necessary for a SH game, however. I think Alan Wake was exactly what I wanted from a horror game after Silent Hill and it didn't have ANY disturbing imagery. All of the horror it generated was from the nature of the situation as well as the creeping dread of the story.

I think SH:D is a great step in the right direction for the franchise because it's about recapturing themes of sin (or transgression if you want to use a less religiously-charged word), guilt, and loss. That and returning to a strong relationship with the mythology makes it pretty much something I can include in my "canon" of Silent Hill games. For me, it's SH1, SH2, SH3, SH4, and SH:D.

The gameplay is much better, IMHO, than SH4 so I'm going to rank it as the 4th best game.

No, it's not a gamechanger but it's like the return of an Old Friend for me.

[Dr. Robotnik]

The monsters weren't very scary (although I don't find most monsters in the series partcularly scary anyway), and the game relied very heavily on jump scares, which is pretty damn weak compared to thw more paranoia-fueling aspects of say, Silent Hill 2. The Otherworld looked decent; I might have had more time to explore it if I wasn't so busy trying to get away from the damn Void. Like Shattered Memories, all the Otherworld really is is an annoying chase sequence with a puzzle or two thrown in.

Other than that though, I can't think of any complaints.

[the_corinthian]

the fact that y'all niggas are trying SO HARD at proving OP wrong just shows how right he is... I don't like it either, i loved downpour, but he's right... Having a different opinion doesn't change anything, as everybody knows, in the end our personal opinions don't matter.

I know it's been i while since this discussion started (and aparently finished), but I just can't read your butthurt replys to every single thing OP writes, it pisses me off. every argument you think you may have had against his theories have all been proven wrong. Just deal with it.

You may think that you "won" the discussion, but you didn't. Like we say in my country: "ganaron por cansancio" which translates as something like: "yeah, whatever man, you're right... just shut the fuck up already".

I liked this forum until i met the "elite users" with their opinions that appear to be cannon and undenyably true. Anyone who seems to disagree with that, is molested (yeah, it's a strong word, but that's what it is) until he gets tired and flees the forum or just sighs and nods to everything the alpha-users have to say about anything.

[devil hunter]

Well excuse us for thinking differently from the OP.

Who cares about "winning the discussion"? We just stated how we think about Downpour. We don't state our opinions as facts, because they're just opinions.

Seems to me that you took this way too seriously. Calm down.

[WhiteClaudia]

How can anyone say that Murphy's past isn't as tormented as James or any of the other Protagonists? Henry's life was less tormented than Murphy!

REVEAL SPOILER

His son was sexually assaulted, raped, and then killed. Not only that, but he lost the woman he ever loved, and had his sons death taunt him for the rest of life. He was blamed for the death of his son by his ex wife, and then was blamed for killing a man when he never did (Frank, if you went that path). Otherwise, he DID kill someone! The dead body of Charlie burned into his mind. I think that's enough torment. I guess if you're not a parent you wont really understand just how tormenting that can be to one's mind... Though, I'm not a parent (thankfully) and I can see that.

[captain crowbar]

REVEAL SPOILER

My problem with Murphy was the way they presented him. I think the opening sequence in the shower is literally the worst move they could have made.

If we didn't know anything about anything when he walked onto that bus, everything would have played out a lot differently, and I think I would have liked Murphy more.

But, agreed, that's some pretty hard shit he went through and he definitely had to be an emotionally scarred man at the onset of the game, more so than anyone but perhaps the characters from 2.

[devil hunter]

REVEAL SPOILER

Why him attacking the man who killed his son, hell, he couldn't even finish the job in one ending, makes you not liking him more?

[captain crowbar]

REVEAL SPOILER

Because

1. That reveals a lot about him as a character and about the story as a whole, right out of the starting gate, all in the hopes that we'll be like "omg, Murph is a badass that beats up pedo's for justice". I just didn't like it.

2. It was essentially just a combat tutorial, and that's something I hate in games

I'm not saying the scene was a bad idea itself, just that it didn't work as an opening to the game.

But then maybe it was all a bad dream anyway. Murphy does wake up like almost all the other protagonists do in SH games after the dream sequence at the beginning.

[devil hunter]

REVEAL SPOILER

I knew something like that will happen, they weren't intending to make that into a huge plot twist. It doesn't reveal much about him and the story because Napier seems like some wuss and Murphy looks really cold, almost frightening. They're different when you know more about them.

[captain crowbar]

REVEAL SPOILER

Napier was a wuss and Murphy was an angry, violent guy. Especially if you go with the evil moral choices

[WhiteClaudia]

REVEAL SPOILER

Yeah, the Napier plot isn't supposed to be a plot twist. We find out early on in the game that it was him who killed his son. Early on, I believe, we see a flashback to Sewell and Murphy talking, and Sewell says something along the lines of, "I helped you kill that child buggering bastard. Now you do this for me." Common sense would tell a person, "Oh! So, THAT'S who that was!" Like Crowbar said, it was more of a tutorial than anything.

I'd say the point where we find out that Murphy chose to go to Prison to kill Napier was more of a plot twist (though very minor) than Napier.

[clips7]

REVEAL SPOILER

The game didn't do a very good job of masking that tho....i knew how the story in "general" was going to play out. And i agree with Crowbar in that with Murph brutally killing that guy, it really didn't make him very likable....you knew Sewell had something on Murph just by his dialogue..there was nothing subtle about it. I've stated before that his character was on the borderline of "twirly mustachey" villian.

I wanted to like Murph as a character, but his withdrawn attitude kinda put me off a bit, something about his character just seemed cold even after the revelation of his son's murder....even tho i feel Downpour is a better game than Homecoming, i felt the impact and weight of Alex's situation more than Murphy's

[devil hunter]

REVEAL SPOILER

The game didn't do a very good job of masking that tho....i knew how the story in "general" was going to play out. And i agree with Crowbar in that with Murph brutally killing that guy, it really didn't make him very likable....you knew Sewell had something on Murph just by his dialogue..there was nothing subtle about it. I've stated before that his character was on the borderline of "twirly mustachey" villian.

I wanted to like Murph as a character, but his withdrawn attitude kinda put me off a bit, something about his character just seemed cold even after the revelation of his son's murder....even tho i feel Downpour is a better game than Homecoming, i felt the impact and weight of Alex's situation more than Murphy's

REVEAL SPOILER

I'm actually surprised you guys think like that about "killing Napier" stuff. I dunno what you were expecting from a guy who's kid was killed by that maniac. He sure wasn't planning to talk with him. He did admit that only made his life worse and didn't change anything. Did you fell asleep during the parts that show he's not some cold bastard? Like when he thinks that prisoner (Sanchez is his name, I think) is beating up a Screamer and Murphy attacks him just because he thinks he's beating up a woman.

Some people were disappointed Murphy wasn't a cold blooded killer many people thought he'll be before the game came out. Many thought he's actually a likeable character. So, there are some that are disappointed that some parts show him as "cold"?

It also makes sense why Murphy is so pissed off. He's a prisoner who's trying to get away from the police and he ends up in the town full of monsters. Of course he doesn't wanna lose time and just get away. He's actually thinking logically. The moments like when he talks with the kid show what kind of a man he really is, he's not cold or anything, or even during the end etc. Frank knew he wasn't like the other prisoners.

Btw. I don't think they were trying to make that stuff subtle. SH 2 wasn't exactly subtle about some stuff either. How many times was something like this said "Did you love Mary?", "You didn't love her", "You and me are the same" etc.

The twist in the hotel isn't really such a big twist.

[Mr.E.Nygma]

I've been trying to figure out what was lacking in DP and you did it. Nice

[rollerfan222]

Sewell was a cliche villain, Murphy wasn't a very likeable protagonist IMO.

[WhiteClaudia]

Oh, I liked him just fine... hehehe

Oh...right... Something else. Ahem.

But I do have to say, after reading through this thread, it made me think back to all of those "what the fuck" moments. Like in Silent Hill 4, there were points in the Spiral Staircase Otherworld part, where you'd see small rooms off the right with strange things inside that could be seen. I remember spending so much time studying these things trying to make them out. One had a baby doll convulsing continuously. There was another with what looked like a lamb or sheep looking back at you. OH! And then the 2nd floor of St. Jerome's with all those different rooms! My favorite was always the one that's a padded room and at the other side, the wall is covered in a bloody sheet with what looks like some form of a humanoid body on the other side. I say humanoid cause something tells me it might not have been human.


I don't know if it's just me, but the figure always looked like it resembled Samael to me... If you look closely at it's figure and the shape of it's limbs. Plus, the way the sheet wraps around its head, kind of makes it look like horns. Hell, someone else has probably already mentioned this. The only difference is the wings and the abdomen,

Then there was the points in Silent Hill 3, like the odd thing we see of the creature thingy holding a baby doll in its hand while dangling in mid air. And the baby doll in the wheelchair. The spinning wheelchair in the basement of Brookehaven which had a streak of blood leading to the elevator that was covered in blood and bullet holes. You could even hear panting coming from inside if you were quiet enough. (It's speculated that this is Stanley). Oh, and of course the letters from Stanley.

[clips7]

Oh, I liked him just fine... hehehe

Oh...right... Something else. Ahem.

But I do have to say, after reading through this thread, it made me think back to all of those "what the fuck" moments. Like in Silent Hill 4, there were points in the Spiral Staircase Otherworld part, where you'd see small rooms off the right with strange things inside that could be seen. I remember spending so much time studying these things trying to make them out. One had a baby doll convulsing continuously. There was another with what looked like a lamb or sheep looking back at you. OH! And then the 2nd floor of St. Jerome's with all those different rooms! My favorite was always the one that's a padded room and at the other side, the wall is covered in a bloody sheet with what looks like some form of a humanoid body on the other side. I say humanoid cause something tells me it might not have been human.


I don't know if it's just me, but the figure always looked like it resembled Samael to me... If you look closely at it's figure and the shape of it's limbs. Plus, the way the sheet wraps around its head, kind of makes it look like horns. Hell, someone else has probably already mentioned this. The only difference is the wings and the abdomen,

Then there was the points in Silent Hill 3, like the odd thing we see of the creature thingy holding a baby doll in its hand while dangling in mid air. And the baby doll in the wheelchair. The spinning wheelchair in the basement of Brookehaven which had a streak of blood leading to the elevator that was covered in blood and bullet holes. You could even hear panting coming from inside if you were quiet enough. (It's speculated that this is Stanley). Oh, and of course the letters from Stanley.

Everything you mentioned is why i love the older games so much...that stairwell segment in SH4? I constantly talk about the disturbing imagery off to the side. It's like you're walking deeper into the the madness, and even tho you didn't want to, you had to do it!! That image you have posted just up above, yeah..it's a throwback to the samael creature, but even that image was crafted well...

i just loved the art direction and texture work in those games....when you look at these images you instantly can tell that something just isn't right and is outright terrifying. I can imagine walking into a room like that and just making a quick u-turn...i like the newer games too, but you're making me want to fire up SH4 right now..

[Purramid_Head]

That image is very awesome and almost looks like an altar. Although, the incubus is not Samael. It's actually in the image of Baphomet, an old occult figure. As above, so below.



It's usually mistaken as a god, God, or the devil. But it is in fact neither of these things. In Silent Hill's context I believe it was a reference to the idea of a "false god". In the writings of Levi, he condemns people worshiping this as God. For more info.

The figure in the curtains, to me, looks more demonic.

[Q. Valintyne]

the fact that y'all niggas are trying SO HARD at proving OP wrong just shows how right he is... I don't like it either, i loved downpour, but he's right... Having a different opinion doesn't change anything, as everybody knows, in the end our personal opinions don't matter.

I know it's been i while since this discussion started (and aparently finished), but I just can't read your butthurt replys to every single thing OP writes, it pisses me off. every argument you think you may have had against his theories have all been proven wrong. Just deal with it.

You may think that you "won" the discussion, but you didn't. Like we say in my country: "ganaron por cansancio" which translates as something like: "yeah, whatever man, you're right... just shut the fuck up already".

I liked this forum until i met the "elite users" with their opinions that appear to be cannon and undenyably true. Anyone who seems to disagree with that, is molested (yeah, it's a strong word, but that's what it is) until he gets tired and flees the forum or just sighs and nods to everything the alpha-users have to say about anything.

Took you a while to join the conversation.

[captain crowbar]

So the god in SH1 is Baphomet? Or is it just meant to look almost exactly like it?

And where does the name Incubus come in?

Edit: read article Purr posted:

"The idea of polarity, such as dividing the world into male and female energies, was a central concept within nineteenth century occultism. This influence is obvious in Levi’s Baphomet in several places:
•The gesture of one hand pointing up while the other hand points down, expressing the Hermetic concept “As above, so below,” reflecting how different levels of existence influence on another, whether those levels be intellectual vs. physical, spiritual world vs. material world, or microcosm vs. macrocosm."