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Otherworld

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Theory and Analysis: What Is Canon?

Post by Otherworld on Fri Apr 17, 2015 10:39 am

I can agree that a fresh outlook on things would work. But the grumpy old man inside me just wants to ensure that original lore that was created does not get disregarded or stepped all over.

There are a million different ways to start something fresh, and at the same time pay homage to the past.
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PMS_Akali

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Theory and Analysis: What Is Canon?

Post by PMS_Akali on Fri Apr 17, 2015 10:58 am

devil hunter wrote:
He specifically says that they're the same and that James shouldn't act holy to him. A person who has no idea what another person did wouldn't say something like that.

Eddie: You and me are the same James!

James: You counterfited money too?

Eddie: Yea-wait...what?


Eddie says that the town called James, too. When he says they are the same, he is saying they are both bad people. He shows no indication at all that he knows James kills his wife. James doesn't even know. He also says James is like the others who laughed at him. Eddie is crazy.

This is a series where bunch of weird things happen. Not to mention, what you complain about is really so insignificant that your complaints are just nitpicking.


The entire plot of the story revolves around Murphy making a "James" and coming to terms with what he's done. Silent Hill giving all the characters the entire plot is not nitpicking.

Series is full of illogical things. Why does James not stick with Eddie and Angela, he knows how dangerous the place is. Why does he have a normal conversation with Maria in the middle of the park when the monsters are everywhere.

Why does Richard treat the fall from the building like a mild annoyance and starts talking with Henry like nothing strange is going on?

Characters in the series rarely behave the way normal people would. Why do you nitpick about it now. Murphy and Heather are perfect examples of normal people questioning the weird logic of the other characters.


I'm not complaining about any of that. I don't care if characters are weird. I'm complaining that the narrative is given to the characters in the game by a massive Deus Ex and they aren't allowed to spoil it because the writer had to make up a reason for Silent Hill to kill people that it gave information to in the first place. Why are they given this info. What purpose does this serve?

They're frequently frustrated because of the weird shit other characters say and do. If you complain about characters knowing Murphy's name, congratulations, you're Murphy.


I'm frustrated because they know much more than that. For absolutely no reason.


So?

It's also a big coincidence how in SH2 James meets Laura, Eddie and Angela in the most absurd places.


I'm not talking about coincidences at all....


Random person: So, mister Cronenberg, I like it how your movie The Fly had a metaphor for AIDS.

Cronenberg: Actually, I intended it to be a metaphor for aging.

Random person: Geez Cronenber, that sure IS a very nice AIDS metaphor, that's the way I want to see it.


There is no interpretation here. Go rewatch the cut-scene with Ricks. He's on the phone with Silent Hill. They call him because he's doesn't follow orders. He tells Murphy this. Silent Hill monsters come and whisk him away to murder him. Go re-watch the scene.



What do you mean about knowing what to do? They're stuck there, Murphy actually got out (depending on the ending).


Ricks knows he has to play music. Blackwood knows he has to deliver mail. Murphy doesn't know what to do until all the characters tell him.

I refuse to find symbolism for Schisms in Homecoming so I gotta assume they're there for no reason at all and their inclusion makes no sense.

See how easy that is?


What are you trying to say here? We know the Nun is there. Finding symbolism or not has nothing to do with why she makes no sense to the story.


So, why is there a message like that. Why does a ghost tell to Maria that James is a bad person?


Because James knows he's a bad person subconsciously. She's a manifestation of James + the town. Why can Maria also not meet any of the other characters in the game? Also, for that last part. I think Born From a Wish wasn't handled very well. Yeah, even the God of All Horror games that the new developers can't let go of has flaws.


It's never stated the town does it. It may be Bobby specific manifestation.


That's still the town. And still bad writing because we don't know that.


Your point would be valid if she's the only one who makes those sort of assumptions but other characters do it, almost all the time. Eddie does it, Maria does it (for a bigger reason than others), I believe even Laura does it. It's foreshadowing and if it's used so many times the writer obviously did it for a reason.

Like I said before, if only Angela did it, you would sort of have a point there. I say sort of, even though she doesn't like men that's not proof that she doesn't know what he did.


When do other characters say James killed his wife?


Why does it weaken the story. It doesn't mean if the article is optional or not, you're saying that it's bad writing, therefore, SH2 has bad writing. No backing away from that. It is how it is now.


Because the entire plot of DP revolves around Murphy. Because SH2's plot does not revolve around Angela. A detail on a newspaper article has not baring at all to the story of James. It's never even brought up. You'd have a point if the game was about Angela and James was a side character and told her about that detail. If that detail hinged the entire plot on it.

Also, I don't know what the weird fixation on news articles is. I've already said I don't have a problem with Murphy learning about Sater. That's the only thing that makes sense in their whole conversation.

That's not a specific case either, there are countless documents which talk about certain characters through the series.


And yet not once was it ever spoon fed to one character and then used to advance the plot for other characters.

Hell, I'm sure there are even some things that are acknowledged in the cutscenes. What about the video tape in 2? Why can't we assume that the same is with other things James can find. What reason is there for James to pick up that video tape? Doesn't he have bigger things to worry about?


Bigger things to worry about? He's using it to find his wife. The video tape is a product of James' mind. Silent Hill didn't go make a tape and give copies to Eddie and Angela. We don't even know if the tape is real. Especially since James wouldn't record that last part.

I have no problems with Murphy learning his revelation from Silent Hill. I have a problem with Silent Hill magically giving all this info to all the citizens of Silent Hill for the purpose of being vague to Murphy. And then killing them if they don't follow that rule that they are suppose to magically know.

Are you actually going to take all the bad writing and tell me that everyone in Silent Hill has a fairy godmother manifestation who comes down and explains Murphy's plight to them. And even explains how not to spoil the revelation or they die? Even though you had to make half that up just to explain why everyone knows all these specifics you're going to tell me this is good writing?

in SH4, it sure is convenient that Eileen studied archeology or whatever it was and she can read the text written in strange language and it's a good thing that those things are convienently there.

In fact, let's assume that James doesn't find the document in the narrative. We can then assume that documents exists only to explain the player what is up with Angela.

Geez, that sounds like bad writing to me.


Sure is convenient that Eileen knows why Henry is trapped in his room....oh wait, she doesn't. Because Silent Hill didn't give her the plot.


"OK, Henry, in order to kill Walter you need this and this..."

Eileen: "OK Henry, thankfully I can understand this let me tell you about Walter."

Eddie: "OK James since I'm totally insane by this point I can talk to you about my history, my mental state justifies it."

etc.


I'll ask this in a different way. When has Silent Hill given characters massive plot details for them to spoil to the protagonists?

When did Silent Hill give information to Eddie about what he already knows and tells James? Silent Hill didn't inject made up story-line for Eddie. He tells James his back story because he knows this info already because he did it.

A better comparison would be if Eddie started spouting stuff about Mary. He has no knowledge of her and has no way of finding out. If he did without James telling him, that would be bad writing. The only information Eddie has, is stuff he already knew or James tells him.


You've seen his situation, if he did knew what exactly needs to be done he wouldn't be stuck there in the first place.


Of course he knows he's a mailman. Silent Hill gives him letters to deliver. And no monsters are coming to kill him. He does know about Murphy. He guides him the entire time. He knows everything going on, even though he has no way of knowing anything without Silent Hill pulling a Deus Ex.


That's your problem, not the games. I think the game shows that she is indeed a manifestation, part of Murphy's psyche. She conveniently disappears and is never refered to again after Murphy solves his problems


She's a manifestation because she's not anywhere to be seen at the end of the game? How'd that prove she's a manifestation? I already said that if I have to turn every character including Anne into a manifestation, then that automatically makes it a bad story. You call her a manifestation because she knows things about Murphy that she couldn't ever know. So what about every other character? Is Ricks and Sater also manifestations?

He also refers to himself when he says that, because he was a coward. Like I wrote before, it's nitpicking and it doesn't damage the plot etc. nor is it bad writing. If it's bad writing, the whole series has tons of problems.


He's also referring to Murphy because he knows who Murphy is. That's bad writing. They are both cowards. Why does he know Murphy is a coward? How does he know Murphy at all?

How does Braintree know what is up with that one little kid and tries to warn Henry? Where did he get that info?


What do you mean? Braintee doesn't warn Henry. Henry warns Braintree.
 
 
 
 
 
 

jam6i

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Theory and Analysis: What Is Canon?

Post by jam6i on Fri Apr 17, 2015 11:13 am

Otherworld wrote:I can agree that a fresh outlook on things would work. But the grumpy old man inside me just wants to ensure that original lore that was created does not get disregarded or stepped all over.

There are a million different ways to start something fresh, and at the same time pay homage to the past.



^P.T. did it perfectly. It was basically an homage to the earlier games' approach to horror without compromising new lore.

And I can't tell you how hard I'll roll my eyes if it turns out that, say, the underlying reason for the familial murders/father possession is a result of something the Order did. Uggggh.

Like...c'mon. P.T. doesn't needthat kind of connection. It feels too forced and unnatural in its own setting. P.T. felt like it existed in it's own universe independent of past lore.

Think about how engaging it would be to learn that P.T. is part of a brand new mystery, new lore, new mythology. Suddenly these games are interesting again! With no connection to past mythology, there's no way to predict how the mystery will play out. You can't point to a past game and say "ahhh it's connected to this so this must be the answer".

It's a brand new experience with no way for the player to know beforehand how the tale might play out.

Great example: the "dark heart" clause. Since we know so much about how the town works (in existing lore) it makes it stupidly easy to guess and predict the motivations and background of characters. Murphy is in Silent Hill? He must have a dark heart. Right there, you've automatically lessened the impact of the story because you know things about Murphy before you even get to know him in the game. This is a case of the existing lore diminishing the quality of new stories: if the player understands the rules, the player is "in the know", more so than the character they are playing as. When the player is in a better position of information than the character, it lessens the impact of discovery.

And this is why P.T. is so great. The player has no referential point for information. This makes the journey of discovery through the looping hallway more meaningful. You can't look to the BoLM and make assumptions. Sure, some people have tried. I've already seen the "dark heart" thing applied to our nameless protagonist. Doesn't that seem a little weird? We have a character who we don't even know his name, but we can already start making assumptions about his background? Because of a decade old text written by people who have nothing to do with the game? Seems kinda silly to me.

I honestly would love it if Silent Hills abandoned the BoLM. That little text has stifled creativity and innovation by forcing games to adhere to a certain set of rules.
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Otherworld

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Theory and Analysis: What Is Canon?

Post by Otherworld on Fri Apr 17, 2015 11:42 am

jam6i wrote:
Otherworld wrote:I can agree that a fresh outlook on things would work. But the grumpy old man inside me just wants to ensure that original lore that was created does not get disregarded or stepped all over.

There are a million different ways to start something fresh, and at the same time pay homage to the past.



^P.T. did it perfectly. It was basically an homage to the earlier games' approach to horror without compromising new lore.

And I can't tell you how hard I'll roll my eyes if it turns out that, say, the underlying reason for the familial murders/father possession is a result of something the Order did. Uggggh.

Like...c'mon. P.T. doesn't needthat kind of connection. It feels too forced and unnatural in its own setting. P.T. felt like it existed in it's own universe independent of past lore.

Think about how engaging it would be to learn that P.T. is part of a brand new mystery, new lore, new mythology. Suddenly these games are interesting again! With no connection to past mythology, there's no way to predict how the mystery will play out. You can't point to a past game and say "ahhh it's connected to this so this must be the answer".

It's a brand new experience with no way for the player to know beforehand how the tale might play out.

Great example: the "dark heart" clause. Since we know so much about how the town works (in existing lore) it makes it stupidly easy to guess and predict the motivations and background of characters. Murphy is in Silent Hill? He must have a dark heart. Right there, you've automatically lessened the impact of the story because you know things about Murphy before you even get to know him in the game. This is a case of the existing lore diminishing the quality of new stories: if the player understands the rules, the player is "in the know", more so than the character they are playing as. When the player is in a better position of information than the character, it lessens the impact of discovery.

And this is why P.T. is so great. The player has no referential point for information. This makes the journey of discovery through the looping hallway more meaningful. You can't look to the BoLM and make assumptions. Sure, some people have tried. I've already seen the "dark heart" thing applied to our nameless protagonist. Doesn't that seem a little weird? We have a character who we don't even know his name, but we can already start making assumptions about his background? Because of a decade old text written by people who have nothing to do with the game? Seems kinda silly to me.

I honestly would love it if Silent Hills abandoned the BoLM. That little text has stifled creativity and innovation by forcing games to adhere to a certain set of rules.


I totally agree that PT did do it perfectly.

I just see things like " a dark heart" as something that can have a plethora of meaning.

A story about someone not doing anything .... like not helping when they could have or ignoring different things that they knew would result in a personal or otherwise large disaster could be called as well.

It could be about what the said protagonist did, or did not do, or should have done , or shouldn't have done.

BoLM quote:

The town calls to those who bear the weight of some crime and shows them what is in their hearts.


^ This "rule" just seems to be very vague and completely open to interpretation.

No reason to toss the baby out with the bathwater .....
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devil hunter

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Theory and Analysis: What Is Canon?

Post by devil hunter on Fri Apr 17, 2015 12:32 pm

PMS_Akali wrote:Eddie says that the town called James, too. When he says they are the same, he is saying they are both bad people. He shows no indication at all that he knows James kills his wife. James doesn't even know. He also says James is like the others who laughed at him. Eddie is crazy.


That doesn't excuse the fact that he knows some things about James. When he says that him and James are the same he doesn't talk about James laughing at him, that would mean Eddie laughed at himself (which wouldn't make any sense) or others (again, wouldn't make any sense).

He knows James did something bad.

PMS_Akali wrote:The entire plot of the story revolves around Murphy making a "James" and coming to terms with what he's done. Silent Hill giving all the characters the entire plot is not nitpicking.


It's nitpicking.

First part you complain about is that characters are aware of what Murphy did. SH2 has the same problem then.

Second part you complain about is how they know his name. Again, nitpicking.

"Hello Murphy."

Boo! This is awful writing, burn this game!

"My name is Sater, who are you?"

Good writing, this game is tolerable so far. I'll put down my pitchfork for now.

PMS_Akali wrote:I'm not complaining about any of that. I don't care if characters are weird. I'm complaining that the narrative is given to the characters in the game by a massive Deus Ex and they aren't allowed to spoil it because the writer had to make up a reason for Silent Hill to kill people that it gave information to in the first place. Why are they given this info. What purpose does this serve?



Like in all the other SH games.

Jasper: Blablabla, nosy guy bla bla bla but that's not important right now, give me my chocolate milk.

What purpose does it serve to find documents about Angela etc.? Why is that info presented to James? How come Eddie is aware of thing about James, same for Angela?

PMS_Akali wrote:I'm frustrated because they know much more than that. For absolutely no reason.


Like in all the other SH games.

PMS_Akali wrote:I'm not talking about coincidences at all....


I used it as an example of even weirder things happening in the series.

It sure is a big coincidence that a guy goes into some town and happens to meet a little girl who knew about his wife and two other people with dark pasts that he can relate to (symbolically even). And he meets them all again multiple times (even when it doesn't make any sense).

That could be considered to be bad writing as well.


PMS_Akali wrote:There is no interpretation here. Go rewatch the cut-scene with Ricks. He's on the phone with Silent Hill. They call him because he's doesn't follow orders. He tells Murphy this. Silent Hill monsters come and whisk him away to murder him. Go re-watch the scene.


I don't see things like "Hello, this is Mr. Silent Hill, but you can call me Towny."

It's your assumption that can be only the town. That may not be the case.

PMS_Akali wrote:Ricks knows he has to play music. Blackwood knows he has to deliver mail. Murphy doesn't know what to do until all the characters tell him.


Umm...characters don't tell him anything (except for the nun, but she's a part of his psyche, so it's something he knew already, but hid it deep inside him.

Rich doesn't know he has to play music, in fact, it's hinted at that Ricks sent Murphy all those subliminal messages etc. so they can meet up because he wants to get the hell out of there like Murphy. But when Murphy does appear he chickens out and pretends like Murphy is talking nonsense.

Whatever Ricks has to do, that's not it.

As for Blackwood, we don't know much about him and we dunno why he does what he does. Again, if that's what characters have to do, why aren't they free? That was what I originally asked.

PMS_Akali wrote:What are you trying to say here? We know the Nun is there. Finding symbolism or not has nothing to do with why she makes no sense to the story.


My point is that she symbolically makes sense. If you don't bother to look at her symbolically she's just a random nun.

PMS_Akali wrote:Because James knows he's a bad person subconsciously. She's a manifestation of James + the town. Why can Maria also not meet any of the other characters in the game? Also, for that last part. I think Born From a Wish wasn't handled very well. Yeah, even the God of All Horror games that the new developers can't let go of has flaws.


A flaw or they try to say there's something else about the town that doesn't fit your theories so you say is a flaw?

If he knows that he's a bad person why does he believe in the In Water ending that they'll be together? Why does he also believe he wouldn't kill himself?

Who says Maria can't meet up with any of the other characters. That's not stated anywhere in the game. The only reason why she can't meet them up is because she's not present (being dead sometimes and all) and one other time is because she didn't feel like going into the bowling alley.

In fact, there's one part where she's present and there are other characters besides James, but that part is for some reason ignored among the fandom (or more likely forgotten:

BOOM!



She is present after all and there's nothing preventing her from doing so.

"But Laura doesn't notice herrrrr!"

Laura doesn't seem to pay any attention to James either.

One more thing, there's nothing in the game that anything significant would've happened if she does meet other characters.

James: "Eddie, this is Maria, she's also lost in the town and we're trying to get away from monsters."

Eddie: "I hope you guys will be alright."

James: "You too. Now let's do that stupid thing again where we'll split up instead of sticking together, since obviously, this town isn't dangerous or something."

Eddie: Yeah, bye guys!"

PMS_Akali wrote:That's still the town. And still bad writing because we don't know that.


Sure, PH is the town too, so what? All the other monsters and things are the town's doing.

If the game explained it in tiniest details you'd complain it's bad writing too and that it's un-SH.


PMS_Akali wrote:When do other characters say James killed his wife?


They don't but they say that he didn't like his wife, question if he liked her, call him a liar, say that he's a bad person etc.

That's enough to make assumptions. If they all say things like that, all negative things when it comes to his relationship with Mary that says something. It's too big to be just a coincidence.

PMS_Akali wrote:Because the entire plot of DP revolves around Murphy. Because SH2's plot does not revolve around Angela. A detail on a newspaper article has not baring at all to the story of James.


So, I guess Angela could be removed from the game altogether since she's so insignificant.

PMS_Akali wrote:It's never even brought up. You'd have a point if the game was about Angela and James was a side character and told her about that detail. If that detail hinged the entire plot on it.


Many weird things in the game aren't brought up and when they ARE brought up most of the time it doesn't make sense for them to be brought up.

PMS_Akali wrote:Also, I don't know what the weird fixation on news articles is. I've already said I don't have a problem with Murphy learning about Sater. That's the only thing that makes sense in their whole conversation.


What's the weird fixation on other characters learning about Murphy then and how that's a bad thing? Why doesn't that make sense.

"But there wasn't much time for Sater to learn about Murphy."

Murphy learned about Sater.

PMS_Akali wrote:And yet not once was it ever spoon fed to one character and then used to advance the plot for other characters.


Possessed Eileen is one example of that indeed happening.

PMS_Akali wrote:Bigger things to worry about? He's using it to find his wife. The video tape is a product of James' mind. Silent Hill didn't go make a tape and give copies to Eddie and Angela. We don't even know if the tape is real. Especially since James wouldn't record that last part.


And he knows that would give him answers because? He knows there's something on the tape that will answer everything because?

The tape is real because James is interacting with it, it's SH, lots of supernatural and stuff. If it isn't real I thank you for giving me this comical scenario where James walks around like a dumbass then sitting and staring at a blank screen of the TV in the end.

And yeah, obviously he wouldn't be able to record it, that's the supernatural.

It's not the first time some character found strange video tapes that told something about a certain character in weird places.

PMS_Akali wrote:I have no problems with Murphy learning his revelation from Silent Hill. I have a problem with Silent Hill magically giving all this info to all the citizens of Silent Hill for the purpose of being vague to Murphy. And then killing them if they don't follow that rule that they are suppose to magically know.

Are you actually going to take all the bad writing and tell me that everyone in Silent Hill has a fairy godmother manifestation who comes down and explains Murphy's plight to them. And even explains how not to spoil the revelation or they die? Even though you had to make half that up just to explain why everyone knows all these specifics you're going to tell me this is good writing?


All that isn't stated in the game and I didn't make up anything. That's just your take on the whole thing. I'm not the one who's making it seem stupid, you are. You say SH is a fairy godmother.

PMS_Akali wrote:Sure is convenient that Eileen knows why Henry is trapped in his room....oh wait, she doesn't. Because Silent Hill didn't give her the plot.


But its' convenient for her to learn about the plot because she can understand strange language no one else can. ;)

It's also convenient for her to live enough to read it because Walter randomly felt sorry for her and let her live...but not before beating the shit out of her first and later he decides to let her turn into a big pile of red goo.


PMS_Akali wrote:I'll ask this in a different way. When has Silent Hill given characters massive plot details for them to spoil to the protagonists?


"OK, Henry, in order to kill Walter you need this and this..."


There you go. One example which was already present in that post. The only reason that ghost did that is because of a weird ritual that powers of Walter and SH turned into a reality. There's also the news article from SH2 for example.

PMS_Akali wrote:When did Silent Hill give information to Eddie about what he already knows and tells James? Silent Hill didn't inject made up story-line for Eddie. He tells James his back story because he knows this info already because he did it.


SH didn't tell Sater that, same for Ricks. You say that SH told him to say certain things when events from the game state otherwise.

Monsters came to get Ricks because he's a coward who tried to drag others into helping him getting out of the mess he's in by sending cryptic clues. There's nothing in the game stating that SH tells them to give info to Murphy. They do it themselves.

PMS_Akali wrote:A better comparison would be if Eddie started spouting stuff about Mary. He has no knowledge of her and has no way of finding out. If he did without James telling him, that would be bad writing. The only information Eddie has, is stuff he already knew or James tells him.


How did Eddie came to a conclusion that James is a bad person? James certainly didn't tell him that, in fact, James doesn't believe it.

Angela spouted stuff about Mary, she accusses James of being a liar.

PMS_Akali wrote:Of course he knows he's a mailman. Silent Hill gives him letters to deliver. And no monsters are coming to kill him. He does know about Murphy. He guides him the entire time. He knows everything going on, even though he has no way of knowing anything without Silent Hill pulling a Deus Ex.


I was talking about Ricks but it applies to Howard to. It's not his fate is anything good.

PMS_Akali wrote:She's a manifestation because she's not anywhere to be seen at the end of the game? How'd that prove she's a manifestation? I already said that if I have to turn every character including Anne into a manifestation, then that automatically makes it a bad story. You call her a manifestation because she knows things about Murphy that she couldn't ever know. So what about every other character? Is Ricks and Sater also manifestations?


She knows in detail. That's the big difference. She knows a lot of things, she's not horrified when monsters appear, she's not weirded out or anything. That's completely different from other characters (I don't count Howard because he's weird and it's obvious something different is going on with him).

You don't have to turn every character into a manifestation but you decide to do that. Your problem, not the games.

From what I can gather (because the game won't spell it out) she's a part of Murphy's psyche. If Bogeyman is Murphy telling himself that Napier deserved it, Nun is a part of him saying that he screwed up.

Unlike other characters you meet there's nothing saying that she's stuck in the town for some reason, there's nothing that can make you think in that direction, she's different.

Murphy's comment on the nurse: "I have never really understood this concept of self-sacrifice, to give up your own life and the chance to have your own family for the sake of serving others. But back in the orphanage we were all grateful as hell that those women chose to be teachers, nurses and yes, even true mothers to us."

More proof that she's part of his psyche etc.

PMS_Akali wrote:He's also referring to Murphy because he knows who Murphy is. That's bad writing. They are both cowards. Why does he know Murphy is a coward? How does he know Murphy at all?


How does Murphy know that Sater is a coward, why does he know Sater at all?

Why does Eddie know James is a bad person? Why do they meet?

Why does Braintree know about Walter? Why do all those characters appear?

Because of symoblism, plot reasons etc.

PMS_Akali wrote:What do you mean? Braintee doesn't warn Henry. Henry warns Braintree.
[/quote]

Nope, that happens during the electric chair part I think. It means that Braintree got info about Walter, he knows something Henry doesn't.

jam6i wrote:Sure, some people have tried. I've already seen the "dark heart" thing applied to our nameless protagonist. Doesn't that seem a little weird? We have a character who we don't even know his name, but we can already start making assumptions about his background? Because of a decade old text written by people who have nothing to do with the game? Seems kinda silly to me.


Don't people theorize that the nameless protagonist in P.T. killed his wife (his pregnant wife) and is now stuck in a personal hell where he's haunted by his wife and child?

If those two are not connected to the protagonist why do they haunt him and why do we listen to the reports of some guy killing his family and then himself?

P.T. does things a little differently, but in terms of story, it doesn't exactly break now ground.

Not necessarily a bad thing, but "opening up a new mythology etc." no really.
 
 
 
 
 
 

Parvatii

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Theory and Analysis: What Is Canon?

Post by Parvatii on Fri Apr 17, 2015 4:45 pm

Otherworld wrote:
Angela specifically calls James a liar after the AD boss battle knowing that Mary did not die because of a disease or illness. Angela tells James point blank ... " I KNOW ABOUT YOU !" The town has ensured that she has gathered some knowledge about him. The same way James finds the Thomas Orosco article. There is no possible way that article would be found where it is. In the Labyrinth, where James jumps downs a series of holes just to get to, unless the towns provides that information....

The town has specifically ensured that information was available to James. Just as it has ensured that Angela has information about James.


That conversation has little to nothing to do with what Angela knows, more of what she assumes. When she says "I know about you" it's based on the assumption that he's found someone else and doesn't care about Mary. It's just a sign that she is sexually abuse. It's not evidence of the town giving her knowledge of James.
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Post by Otherworld on Fri Apr 17, 2015 5:32 pm

Purramid_Head wrote:
Otherworld wrote:
Angela specifically calls James a liar after the AD boss battle knowing that Mary did not die because of a disease or illness. Angela tells James point blank ... " I KNOW ABOUT YOU !" The town has ensured that she has gathered some knowledge about him. The same way James finds the Thomas Orosco article. There is no possible way that article would be found where it is. In the Labyrinth, where James jumps downs a series of holes just to get to, unless the towns provides that information....

The town has specifically ensured that information was available to James. Just as it has ensured that Angela has information about James.


That conversation has little to nothing to do with what Angela knows, more of what she assumes. When she says "I know about you" it's based on the assumption that he's found someone else and doesn't care about Mary. It's just a sign that she is sexually abuse. It's not evidence of the town giving her knowledge of James.


I am of a different opinion. And the conversation on the staircase IMO is just more evidence to suggest that Angela has gathered knowledge about James.

After she asks all those questions, it is pretty easy to see she knows something.

It is not just coincidence.
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Post by Parvatii on Fri Apr 17, 2015 5:37 pm

Except the staircase proves my point because she says "You see it too?" meaning she was unaware that James saw the weird stuff she did.
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Post by Otherworld on Fri Apr 17, 2015 6:39 pm

Purramid_Head wrote:Except the staircase proves my point because she says "You see it too?" meaning she was unaware that James saw the weird stuff she did.


I am speaking about the questions Angela asks James.

Angela: Or maybe you think you can save me? Will you love me? Take care of me? Heal all my pain?

*James drops his head and doesn't respond.*

Angela: That's what I thought.

^ This is what I was referring to.

Plus, she already warns James about weird stuff in the cemetery when they first meet.
Last edited by Otherworld on Fri Apr 17, 2015 6:52 pm.
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Post by Otherside on Fri Apr 17, 2015 6:48 pm

The town acting in a different way in DP in relation to SH2, is not a problem. That's just a characteristic of the town that we didn't knew existed, until DP came out. It is an addittion to the mythology of the series, not a contradiction to it. There is no reason for the town to be unable to act in different ways, depending of the person who enters it.
 
 
 
 
 
 

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Post by Parvatii on Fri Apr 17, 2015 7:30 pm

Otherworld wrote:
Purramid_Head wrote:Except the staircase proves my point because she says "You see it too?" meaning she was unaware that James saw the weird stuff she did.


I am speaking about the questions Angela asks James.

Angela: Or maybe you think you can save me? Will you love me? Take care of me? Heal all my pain?

*James drops his head and doesn't respond.*

Angela: That's what I thought.

^ This is what I was referring to.

Plus, she already warns James about weird stuff in the cemetery when they first meet.


That's just a trope. But idk what it's called. It's from a movie but it doesn't pertain to some hidden knowledge about the other character. (Maybe devilhunter can help me out on this.) It pertains to the craziness of the speaker. The audience at the time watching is expected to know that James can never fulfill this with Angela.
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Post by Otherworld on Fri Apr 17, 2015 7:42 pm

Purramid_Head wrote:
Otherworld wrote:
Purramid_Head wrote:Except the staircase proves my point because she says "You see it too?" meaning she was unaware that James saw the weird stuff she did.


I am speaking about the questions Angela asks James.

Angela: Or maybe you think you can save me? Will you love me? Take care of me? Heal all my pain?

*James drops his head and doesn't respond.*

Angela: That's what I thought.

^ This is what I was referring to.

Plus, she already warns James about weird stuff in the cemetery when they first meet.


That's just a trope. But idk what it's called. It's from a movie but it doesn't pertain to some hidden knowledge about the other character. (Maybe devilhunter can help me out on this.) It pertains to the craziness of the speaker. The audience at the time watching is expected to know that James can never fulfill this with Angela.


And Angela knows this as well. This is the second time she is right about James. Much more than coincidence.
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Post by Parvatii on Fri Apr 17, 2015 8:31 pm

Uh... The audience knows this too. It has nothing to do with hidden knowledge. Image If I said the same thing to you, I think people would expect that you wouldn't be able to do this. I'm going with occam's razor on this one.
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Post by jam6i on Fri Apr 17, 2015 10:48 pm

Is this about the concept of the unreliable narrator? The audience can't trust the things James see, does, or experiences because we're looking through the viewpoint of an unreliable character (in this case self-induced amnesia). Is that the trope you're talking about?
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Post by Otherworld on Fri Apr 17, 2015 11:52 pm

Purramid_Head wrote:Uh... The audience knows this too. It has nothing to do with hidden knowledge. Image If I said the same thing to you, I think people would expect that you wouldn't be able to do this. I'm going with occam's razor on this one.


This does nothing to explain how Angela actually knows this. This is the second time she displays the fact that she has gathered information about James. The entire staircase scene has no meaning at all unless both James and Angela have some understanding of each others plight. It is the only way to add real weight to the scene. And there is no other way for Angela to know the things she does unless the town provides her information just as it did for James in regards to Angela.

Why would that only happen for James? What makes him so special?

We have had this discussion before, and we know the town provides information to James as the Thomas Orosco article could never exist where he finds it.
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Post by PMS_Akali on Sat Apr 18, 2015 12:19 am

devil hunter wrote:That doesn't excuse the fact that he knows some things about James. When he says that him and James are the same he doesn't talk about James laughing at him, that would mean Eddie laughed at himself (which wouldn't make any sense) or others (again, wouldn't make any sense).

He knows James did something bad.


He knows James did something bad, because James is in Silent Hill with him. And the only way to be there is if you did something bad like Eddie. Eddie realizes this at the end. Which is why he brings it up then and not any other time they meet. Eddie's figured out Silent Hill. So he's learned a little about James. He still doesn't know exactly what James did. This is not the case for Murphy.

It's nitpicking.

First part you complain about is that characters are aware of what Murphy did. SH2 has the same problem then.


No it doesn't. I've explained multiple times how this is untrue. James is the only one that figures out what happens to Mary. Not even Maria, who he created knows this fact until he learns it himself.

Second part you complain about is how they know his name. Again, nitpicking.

"Hello Murphy."


"Hey, Murphy!"

"How do you know my name, I never told you."

"I like cats"

"Why are you ignoring my questions?"

Boo! This is awful writing, burn this game!


This is awful writing. If you give characters random info without explaining how they got this info, that is called a plot-hole. There is zero reason why Blackwood has any of the information he does. Same with Sater. These characters have this info for the sole reason to be vague to Murphy.

"My name is Sater, who are you?"

Good writing, this game is tolerable so far. I'll put down my pitchfork for now.


Imagine that. Sater has to gather information and not have knowledge beamed into him outside the scope of the narrative.

Because your theory that the nun is a manifestation used to explain away all the messy writing is not being used on Sater, you've decided this is actually nitpicking.

Like in all the other SH games.


No. Not a single one outside of DP. Literally none of them gain the plot magically and are killed off if they reveal that plot. If you think so, I'd love some examples where this happens.

Jasper: Blablabla, nosy guy bla bla bla but that's not important right now, give me my chocolate milk.


I have no idea what you're trying to prove here.

What purpose does it serve to find documents about Angela etc.? Why is that info presented to James? How come Eddie is aware of thing about James, same for Angela?


The same purpose all memos serve. Lore building. World building. What purpose does the random patient records at Brookhaven hospital serve? Eddie and Angela are only aware of what James tells them.

Like in all the other SH games.


False.


I used it as an example of even weirder things happening in the series.

It sure is a big coincidence that a guy goes into some town and happens to meet a little girl who knew about his wife and two other people with dark pasts that he can relate to (symbolically even). And he meets them all again multiple times (even when it doesn't make any sense).

That could be considered to be bad writing as well.


As all stories do. Stories have to have coincidences. That is unavoidable. All the characters knowing Murphy is no coincident.

I don't see things like "Hello, this is Mr. Silent Hill, but you can call me Towny."

It's your assumption that can be only the town. That may not be the case.


The entire time Ricks is panicking because he will die if he doesn't play by Silent Hill's rules. We know only Silent Hill has access to that phone. You think it's a manifestation. Manifestations are created by the town. Who could possibly send monsters to that location?

Umm...characters don't tell him anything (except for the nun, but she's a part of his psyche, so it's something he knew already, but hid it deep inside him.


Every character tells Murphy outright what they have to do. We know Blackwood has to deliver papers. He says it while he's doing it on screen. Ricks outright says it as well.

Rich doesn't know he has to play music,


That's what he says.

in fact, it's hinted at that Ricks sent Murphy all those subliminal messages etc. so they can meet up because he wants to get the hell out of there like Murphy. But when Murphy does appear he chickens out and pretends like Murphy is talking nonsense.


Exactly. He's going to die because Silent Hill doesn't like what he's doing.

Whatever Ricks has to do, that's not it.


He's suppose to be playing music, not escape Silent Hill with Murphy. Silent Hill hates people who don't do their chores in DP.

As for Blackwood, we don't know much about him and we dunno why he does what he does. Again, if that's what characters have to do, why aren't they free? That was what I originally asked.


Thanks to bad writing, Murphy is the only who gets a chance to escape while everyone is stuck in purgatory forever. Unless they don't do their chores. Then they die.

My point is that she symbolically makes sense. If you don't bother to look at her symbolically she's just a random nun.
That's not why she doesn't make sense. Her conversation with Murphy doesn't make any sense.

A flaw or they try to say there's something else about the town that doesn't fit your theories so you say is a flaw?


What were they trying to tell?

If he knows that he's a bad person why does he believe in the In Water ending that they'll be together? Why does he also believe he wouldn't kill himself?


Why would being a bad person make him commit suicide? He kills himself so he can be with Mary.

Who says Maria can't meet up with any of the other characters. That's not stated anywhere in the game. The only reason why she can't meet them up is because she's not present (being dead sometimes and all) and one other time is because she didn't feel like going into the bowling alley.


And this is done on purpose. The creators did this intentionally. Which is why it was written very well. Maria doesn't feel like going into the bowling alley because she's not real.

In fact, there's one part where she's present and there are other characters besides James, but that part is for some reason ignored among the fandom (or more likely forgotten:

BOOM!



She is present after all and there's nothing preventing her from doing so

"But Laura doesn't notice herrrrr!"


Exactly. Laura never notices her. When you play the game, you also notice never once does anyone at any point in time notice Maria. Maria never ever comes into contact with anyone except James. Because she only exists to James. Anytime James interacts with anyone, Maria is conveniently not around.

Laura doesn't seem to pay any attention to James either.

One more thing, there's nothing in the game that anything significant would've happened if she does meet other characters.


And we know this because? She doesn't meet anyone ever.

James: "Eddie, this is Maria, she's also lost in the town and we're trying to get away from monsters."

Eddie: "I hope you guys will be alright."

James: "You too. Now let's do that stupid thing again where we'll split up instead of sticking together, since obviously, this town isn't dangerous or something."

Eddie: Yeah, bye guys!"


Which makes it all the more interesting because this never happens. Ever. With every character. Because they wouldn't see her. Just like they never see Pyramid Head. Because they are products of James' mind. And that would spoil it for the player. The entire game misleads us into thinking James is perfectly sane so that the giant plot twist can punch us right in the face. Are you by chance familiar with a movie called Sixth Sense?


Sure, PH is the town too, so what? All the other monsters and things are the town's doing.


You're missing the point completely. We know for a fact that the town is telling Ricks that monsters are coming to kill him. I don't care if Pyramid head tells him this. Or Nurse. Or even a little bunny rabbit. That is still the town calling him.

If Maria told James that Laura has a an uncle name Ron, that would still be the town itself telling James.

If the game explained it in tiniest details you'd complain it's bad writing too and that it's un-SH.


No, I'd complain if the game game pulls a deus ex and magically gives characters knowledge instead of organically flowing it into the narrative like DP did. This is bad writing.


They don't but they say that he didn't like his wife, question if he liked her, call him a liar, say that he's a bad person etc.

That's enough to make assumptions. If they all say things like that, all negative things when it comes to his relationship with Mary that says something. It's too big to be just a coincidence.


Two characters do. Angela, who thinks all men are abusive. And Laura, who actually spent time with Mary. Not a single one was magically told that James kills his wife. So no, they don't know at all.


So, I guess Angela could be removed from the game altogether since she's so insignificant.


You've missed the point completely again. I'm saying, whether James knows a detail about Angela has no baring on the plot. James magically learning Laura's favorite color is green does not cheapen the plot in any way. Characters learning the entire plot of DP magically does cheapen the plot.

How does everyone in DP know what Murphy is and why he's there make the plot stronger in anyway. They have this info but can't actually reveal it because Silent Hill will kill them for it, even though Silent Hill gave it to them in the first place. Why do they need to know this?

I will tell you why. It's because the writer wanted people to be vague and mysterious. So they all cryptically release little things to Murphy. The writer realizing that it makes no sense why they don't just reveal this now has to come up with a reason as to why they can't just blurt it out to Murphy. He comes up with the idea that Silent Hill will kill you if you do that. Even though no other game in the series does this ever. This is called digging yourself in a hole. This is bad writing. It is what fanfiction is made of.


"But there wasn't much time for Sater to learn about Murphy."

Murphy learned about Sater.


By reading an article about about him right next to him. Sater knows of Murphy before they even meet. Would love to know how he knows about Napier and Frank. Would love to know how everyone in Silent hill just happens to know.

Possessed Eileen is one example of that indeed happening.


I don't see anyone possessed in DP.

And he knows that would give him answers because? He knows there's something on the tape that will answer everything because?


Possibly because the woman in the prison cell who looks and talks like Mary, and has memories that only Mary could possibly have tell him to. Maybe that's why.

The tape is real because James is interacting with it, it's SH, lots of supernatural and stuff. If it isn't real I thank you for giving me this comical scenario where James walks around like a dumbass then sitting and staring at a blank screen of the TV in the end.


Are we talking about the same game here? You do realize that when Laura walks into the room that's exactly what he's doing, right? You do realize the entire game we are experiencing James' personal hell as stated by the creators of the game. This is the same game we're talking about here. I'd hope you at least know this much. These replies take a long time to do. I'd at least like to know I'm not wasting my time here. Does the hotel completely transforming after the video tape not tell you something?

It's not the first time some character found strange video tapes that told something about a certain character in weird places.


Ummm....yes it is. This is the first time a videotape does that in the series.


All that isn't stated in the game and I didn't make up anything. That's just your take on the whole thing. I'm not the one who's making it seem stupid, you are. You say SH is a fairy godmother.


You just got through telling me that the Nun is a manifestation. You also said that Ricks talks to one on the phone. I know it's not stated in the game. That's why I have a problem with it.


But its' convenient for her to learn about the plot because she can understand strange language no one else can. ;)

It's also convenient for her to live enough to read it because Walter randomly felt sorry for her and let her live...but not before beating the shit out of her first and later he decides to let her turn into a big pile of red goo.


I'll try this another way.

There is nothing convenient about Sater, Blackwood, Ricks, the Nun, etc revealing plot details. That's a deus ex.

"OK, Henry, in order to kill Walter you need this and this..."


There you go. One example which was already present in that post. The only reason that ghost did that is because of a weird ritual that powers of Walter and SH turned into a reality.


And this is actually given in game. With an explanation. This was not gotten outside of the narrative. Do you see why this is not the same as DP?

There's also the news article from SH2 for example


James never once uses this info. If he even knows it at all. Which is a pretty big leap considering it was bloody and James has no knowledge of Angela's dad or her last name.

SH didn't tell Sater that, same for Ricks. You say that SH told him to say certain things when events from the game state otherwise.


No, I said SH gives him knowledge. Silent Hill doesn't tell him to say anything.

Monsters came to get Ricks because he's a coward who tried to drag others into helping him getting out of the mess he's in by sending cryptic clues. There's nothing in the game stating that SH tells them to give info to Murphy. They do it themselves.


Monsters come to get Ricks because he tells Murphy his plan to escape. His job is to play music. Silent Hill tries to kill him for conspiring to escape with Murphy. Him telling Murphy is his own doing. Not Silent Hill's.


How did Eddie came to a conclusion that James is a bad person? James certainly didn't tell him that, in fact, James doesn't believe it.


He already says why in the same cutscene.

"This town called you, too."

Angela spouted stuff about Mary, she accusses James of being a liar.


She spouts only what James has told her of Mary. She accuses James of also wanting sex from her and being a liar when he denies that as well.

I was talking about Ricks but it applies to Howard to. It's not his fate is anything good.


Fate. Destiny. Mission. Call it whatever you like. But his job is to deliver papers. As he says so himself. He's stuck in purgatory delivering letters.


She knows in detail. That's the big difference. She knows a lot of things, she's not horrified when monsters appear, she's not weirded out or anything. That's completely different from other characters (I don't count Howard because he's weird and it's obvious something different is going on with him).


Every character does this, though.

You don't have to turn every character into a manifestation but you decide to do that. Your problem, not the games.


I'm not turning any characters into manifestations. The game never alludes to it in the first place. That's the problem.

From what I can gather (because the game won't spell it out) she's a part of Murphy's psyche. If Bogeyman is Murphy telling himself that Napier deserved it, Nun is a part of him saying that he screwed up.


And that's only a theory. For the sake of the argument we'll say she isn't real. That would explain away one character. The others still have to be accounted for. Ricks is not a manifestation. He doesn't get a "get out of bad plot" free card.

Unlike other characters you meet there's nothing saying that she's stuck in the town for some reason, there's nothing that can make you think in that direction, she's different.


Nothing saying Sater is stuck in town either. Or the guy in the subway. Or 2 little kids.

Murphy's comment on the nurse: "I have never really understood this concept of self-sacrifice, to give up your own life and the chance to have your own family for the sake of serving others. But back in the orphanage we were all grateful as hell that those women chose to be teachers, nurses and yes, even true mothers to us."

More proof that she's part of his psyche etc.


How so?

How does Murphy know that Sater is a coward, why does he know Sater at all?

Why does Eddie know James is a bad person? Why do they meet?

Why does Braintree know about Walter? Why do all those characters appear?

Because of symoblism, plot reasons etc.


There is no plot reason as to why the entire town of Silent Hill knows Murphy. We know Sater is a coward because he just read the article about him.


Nope, that happens during the electric chair part I think. It means that Braintree got info about Walter, he knows something Henry doesn't.


Of course he gets info on Walter. Walter is the one who puts him in the chair. He doesn't magically get that info.
 
 
 
 
 
 

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Post by Parvatii on Sat Apr 18, 2015 2:03 am

jam6i wrote:Is this about the concept of the unreliable narrator? The audience can't trust the things James see, does, or experiences because we're looking through the viewpoint of an unreliable character (in this case self-induced amnesia). Is that the trope you're talking about?


No but that's a wicked good argument since James is a bit of one.

Otherworld wrote:
This does nothing to explain how Angela actually knows this. This is the second time she displays the fact that she has gathered information about James. The entire staircase scene has no meaning at all unless both James and Angela have some understanding of each others plight. It is the only way to add real weight to the scene. And there is no other way for Angela to know the things she does unless the town provides her information just as it did for James in regards to Angela.


Projecting your insecurities on someone is not indicative of having secret knowledge about them from the town.

Why would that only happen for James? What makes him so special?


I never said it did. In fact I said the opposite.

We have had this discussion before, and we know the town provides information to James as the Thomas Orosco article could never exist where he finds it.


It would be easy to argue this. Another easy argument is that we know everyone has a subjective experience in town so there's no guarantee the town would provide information about James to Angela.
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Post by devil hunter on Sat Apr 18, 2015 4:25 am

Purramid_Head wrote: (Maybe devilhunter can help me out on this.) It pertains to the craziness of the speaker. The audience at the time watching is expected to know that James can never fulfill this with Angela.


Could you give me a description of that trope? I hope I'll know what it is, I'm not sure what you guys mean.

EDIT: OK guys, this is the closest I found: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DramaticIrony

PMS_Akali wrote:He knows James did something bad, because James is in Silent Hill with him. And the only way to be there is if you did something bad like Eddie. Eddie realizes this at the end. Which is why he brings it up then and not any other time they meet. Eddie's figured out Silent Hill. So he's learned a little about James. He still doesn't know exactly what James did. This is not the case for Murphy.


I could say the same thing about Sater then. It's as valid as what you wrote there.

PMS_Akali wrote:No it doesn't. I've explained multiple times how this is untrue. James is the only one that figures out what happens to Mary. Not even Maria, who he created knows this fact until he learns it himself.


Eddie, Angela.

PMS_Akali wrote:
This is awful writing. If you give characters random info without explaining how they got this info, that is called a plot-hole. There is zero reason why Blackwood has any of the information he does. Same with Sater. These characters have this info for the sole reason to be vague to Murphy.


Yeah, you do realize that the series is full of plotholes then? Characters are acting like weirdoes to be vague and don't act like normal people.

The whole series sucks then.

PMS_Akali wrote:Imagine that. Sater has to gather information and not have knowledge beamed into him outside the scope of the narrative.


Who says that he didn't gather info? You do realize that J.P. doesn't mention Murphy's name or anything the first time they meet.

Now, second time they meet he knows that Murphy found info about him and calls him "Murphy". Is it a plot hole that Murphy knows what happened to J.P. or is it OK when Murphy does it?

PMS_Akali wrote:Because your theory that the nun is a manifestation used to explain away all the messy writing is not being used on Sater, you've decided this is actually nitpicking.


Nah, stop putting words into my mouth. I just tried to explain to you who the nun is, since it went over your head or you didn't even bother to understand it and decided: "Lol plothole."

PMS_Akali wrote:No. Not a single one outside of DP. Literally none of them gain the plot magically and are killed off if they reveal that plot. If you think so, I'd love some examples where this happens.


Well, Eddie and Angela gathered the plot somehow, same for Richard. Those are the examples I can think of atm.


PMS_Akali wrote:I have no idea what you're trying to prove here.


You complained that characters can't spoil the narrative. Well, Jasper certainly knows some things, says some cryptic stuff, doesn't act like the situation is weird and tells Henry to get him something.

Henry also treats it like it's perfectly normal. Because that's the way human beings act right? If I met you in a completey weird dangerous place would you ask me to get you a piece of cake or something and would I be totally OK with it?

PMS_Akali wrote:The same purpose all memos serve. Lore building. World building. What purpose does the random patient records at Brookhaven hospital serve? Eddie and Angela are only aware of what James tells them.


They seem to be more aware of certain things as the game goes on. I mean, Eddie certainly is starting to get his situation, same for Angela.


PMS_Akali wrote:False.


Yawn...true.


PMS_Akali wrote:
As all stories do. Stories have to have coincidences. That is unavoidable. All the characters knowing Murphy is no coincident.


Mhm, it's only a coincidence when you say it is. Interesting.

PMS_Akali wrote:
The entire time Ricks is panicking because he will die if he doesn't play by Silent Hill's rules. We know only Silent Hill has access to that phone. You think it's a manifestation. Manifestations are created by the town. Who could possibly send monsters to that location?


Sure, the town probably killed James if he didn't realize what he did and who PH is. If PH killed him the town did it.

The town is responsible for everything anyways. And it's hinted at by the games and even developers (not only new games devs) that it's an intelligent design.

PMS_Akali wrote:Every character tells Murphy outright what they have to do. We know Blackwood has to deliver papers. He says it while he's doing it on screen. Ricks outright says it as well.


What does J.P. have to do?

PMS_Akali wrote:That's what he says.


"I can't even tell you how long it's been just spinning record after record after record, hoping someone..."

That's what he says. It doesn't imply he has to do that stuff, he implies he did it for a long time in hope that someone will listen to him and find him, help him find a way out.

Sure, someone calls him, but did you pay attention to the things he says? It seems to imply that someone asked him to play a certain song and then Ricks realized that the song is dedicated to him. He doesn't act like he's doomed or something, just that there's not much time.

It doesn't say that Towny called him or anything, it seems to be random. Again, it could be Ricks specific manifestation.

You could start giving some evidence that Towny called.

PMS_Akali wrote:Exactly. He's going to die because Silent Hill doesn't like what he's doing.


He was sending messages for a long time, why didn't that happen to him sooner. Why does he need to spin them records?

PMS_Akali wrote:He's suppose to be playing music, not escape Silent Hill with Murphy. Silent Hill hates people who don't do their chores in DP.


Yeah, sure, what does Sater gotta do? I guess SH made him kill himself multiple times.

PMS_Akali wrote:Thanks to bad writing, Murphy is the only who gets a chance to escape while everyone is stuck in purgatory forever. Unless they don't do their chores. Then they die.


What is Sater's chore? Also, Anne escapes too.

PMS_Akali wrote:] That's not why she doesn't make sense. Her conversation with Murphy doesn't make any sense.


OK, what confuses you? I'll explain it to you.

PMS_Akali wrote:What were they trying to tell?


That there's more to the town than "person's mental problems etc. turn into monsters".

PMS_Akali wrote:Why would being a bad person make him commit suicide? He kills himself so he can be with Mary.


Seems to me that you can't keep things you say straight. You said that the writing "You might be going to a different place James" is what James created, that he knows he's a bad person, therefore he knows he won't be in the same place as Mary, therefore it doesn't make sense for him to say that they'll be together.

PMS_Akali wrote: Which is why it was written very well. Maria doesn't feel like going into the bowling alley because she's not real.


Yeah, that sure doesn't sound stupid, but it makes sense when SH2 does it I guess. What else, she has magic powers that let her know someone is in a certain building or something? Too bad that power is useless when it comes to PH.

What you wrote there is the same thing as the creator trying to explain a certain weird thing in his story with "a wizard did it". It's a total cop out.

Someone wrote an explanation that's not idiotic. Maria shows signs that she can be nagging. The person also used the basement cutscene as an example. It's like a reminder of bad days in James' life.



[quote=PMS_Akali"]
Exactly. Laura never notices her. When you play the game, you also notice never once does anyone at any point in time notice Maria. Maria never ever comes into contact with anyone except James. Because she only exists to James. Anytime James interacts with anyone, Maria is conveniently not around.[/quote]

Which doesn't mean she can't come in contact with other characters. That cutscene proves she can exist in the same place and in the same time as other characters.

But Lost Memories said that Laura can't see her so I'm wrong there, it doesn't mean that Eddie and Angela can't see her though. Laura is an exception.

PMS_Akali wrote:And we know this because? She doesn't meet anyone ever.


It's an assumption, you know, like what you're saying. Maria somehow interacted with Ernest or whatever his name was and he doesn't seem to be a construct of James, James has no idea who that is.

[quote=PMS_Akali"]
Which makes it all the more interesting because this never happens. Ever. With every character. Because they wouldn't see her.[/quote]

You've got no proof that Eddie and Angela couldn't see her. I have no proof that they could. Both statements are therefore correct and wrong.

PMS_Akali wrote: Just like they never see Pyramid Head.


No proof.

PMS_Akali wrote: Because they are products of James' mind.


James can see products of other people's minds.

PMS_Akali wrote: And that would spoil it for the player.


No it wouldn't, there's nothing saying Eddie and Angela couldn't see her. It can be easily done, really easily.

PMS_Akali wrote:The entire game misleads us into thinking James is perfectly saneso that the giant plot twist can punch us right in the face.


Some people saw the twist coming a mile away though, but what you wrote doesn't have much to do with anything.

PMS_Akali wrote: Are you by chance familiar with a movie called Sixth Sense?


Yeah and it's a really bad example. Are you familiar with the game Shadow of the Colossus?


PMS_Akali wrote:You're missing the point completely. We know for a fact that the town is telling Ricks that monsters are coming to kill him. I don't care if Pyramid head tells him this. Or Nurse. Or even a little bunny rabbit. That is still the town calling him.


The town wanted to punish James for his sins but realized that wasn't needed in the end so it made PH commit suicide.

PMS_Akali wrote:If Maria told James that Laura has a an uncle name Ron, that would still be the town itself telling James.


Mhmm...so the town is telling James that he deserves to die. And you have a problem with Downpour?

PMS_Akali wrote:No, I'd complain if the game game pulls a deus ex and magically gives characters knowledge instead of organically flowing it into the narrative like DP did. This is bad writing.


Yeah, you'd complain. Again, no, it's not bad writing since those are not ordinary people and it's not an ordinary situation.


PMS_Akali wrote:Two characters do. Angela, who thinks all men are abusive. And Laura, who actually spent time with Mary. Not a single one was magically told that James kills his wife. So no, they don't know at all.


What's Eddie's excuse? When every single character you meet does the same thing it's intentionally done like that by the developers. It's foreshadowing etc.


PMS_Akali wrote:You've missed the point completely again. I'm saying, whether James knows a detail about Angela has no baring on the plot. James magically learning Laura's favorite color is green does not cheapen the plot in any way. Characters learning the entire plot of DP magically does cheapen the plot.


Where did Sater learn the entire plot of Downpour, same for Ricks?

Also, yes, James knowing
details about Angela has baring to the plot since the game is constructed around those certain details, plot wise and symbolism wise.

PMS_Akali wrote:How does everyone in DP know what Murphy is and why he's there make the plot stronger in anyway. They have this info but can't actually reveal it because Silent Hill will kill them for it, even though Silent Hill gave it to them in the first place. Why do they need to know this?


Murphy has no problem saying all the personal info to Sater, does he play against the rules? Sater has no problem continuing to talk about that stuff. How does Murphy know who Sater is and what he did?

PMS_Akali wrote: It's because the writer wanted people to be vague and mysterious. So they all cryptically release little things to Murphy.


Welcome to the SH series.

PMS_Akali wrote: The writer realizing that it makes no sense why they don't just reveal this now has to come up with a reason as to why they can't just blurt it out to Murphy.


You sure to love to put words into people's mouths.

A mouse can think he's a lion, but in the end, he's still a mouse.


PMS_Akali wrote:By reading an article about about him right next to him. Sater knows of Murphy before they even meet.


When did that happen?

PMS_Akali wrote: Would love to know how he knows about Napier and Frank. Would love to know how everyone in Silent hill just happens to know.


It's your assumption that he knows everything.

Possessed Eileen is one example of that indeed happening.


PMS_Akali wrote:I don't see anyone possessed in DP.


You don't see why I wrote that too.

As for the tape, he can still assume it's something weird because he remembers what the tape was, he knows there's no aditional info on the tape.

PMS_Akali wrote: Does the hotel completely transforming after the video tape not tell you something?


It shows what exactly happened and the real state of the hotel. The normal hotel is as real as the destroyed one.

Also, don't act like your posts are worth my time, I can say the same thing.

PMS_Akali wrote:
Ummm....yes it is. This is the first time a videotape does that in the series.


There's a video tape in SH1.


PMS_Akali wrote:You just got through telling me that the Nun is a manifestation. You also said that Ricks talks to one on the phone. I know it's not stated in the game. That's why I have a problem with it.


Yeah, because SH games usually spell everything out to you and don't leave certain things mysterious.

Seems to me that you have a problem with that.


PMS_Akali wrote:There is nothing convenient about Sater, Blackwood, Ricks, the Nun, etc revealing plot details. That's a deus ex.


Sater, Blackwood, Ricks don't reveal anything the player doesn't already know. Give me an example of them giving important plot details.

As for the Nun, she does that because she's Murphy's manifestation which appears in a place where bunch of his memories are, it's all about Murphy facing his demons there.

PMS_Akali wrote:And this is actually given in game. With an explanation. This was not gotten outside of the narrative. Do you see why this is not the same as DP?


Now tell me, why does that need to happen? I can say that the writer wrote himself in the corner like you did earlier too.

PMS_Akali wrote:
James never once uses this info. If he even knows it at all. Which is a pretty big leap considering it was bloody and James has no knowledge of Angela's dad or her last name.


Neither does the player then.

PMS_Akali wrote:
No, I said SH gives him knowledge. Silent Hill doesn't tell him to say anything.


Following your logic SH told him what to say and what he shouldn't say.

PMS_Akali wrote:Monsters come to get Ricks because he tells Murphy his plan to escape. His job is to play music. Silent Hill tries to kill him for conspiring to escape with Murphy. Him telling Murphy is his own doing. Not Silent Hill's.


Yeah, sure, where is stated that his job is to play music? Tell me, what is the meaning of that?


PMS_Akali wrote:
He already says why in the same cutscene.

"This town called you, too."


For what reason? Why did the town call him? What did he do? Town can call someone for a variety of things.

PMS_Akali wrote:
She spouts only what James has told her of Mary. She accuses James of also wanting sex from her and being a liar when he denies that as well.


He certainly didn't tell her that he doesn't think she died of disease etc.

[quote As he says so himself. He's stuck in purgatory delivering letters.[/quote]

It doesn't mean it applies to other characters.


PMS_Akali wrote:
Every character does this, though.


Give me an example.

PMS_Akali wrote:I'm not turning any characters into manifestations. The game never alludes to it in the first place. That's the problem.


The game needs to allude to the fact that certain people may not be real? Something that happened before in the series? It needs to state it?

PMS_Akali wrote:
And that's only a theory. For the sake of the argument we'll say she isn't real. That would explain away one character. The others still have to be accounted for. Ricks is not a manifestation. He doesn't get a "get out of bad plot" free card.


The things you write are only theories too, your point being? When does Ricks explain Murphy's entire history? Why does Ricks even wanna hang out with some criminal?

PMS_Akali wrote:
Nothing saying Sater is stuck in town either. Or the guy in the subway. Or 2 little kids.


Two little kids are manifestations, that guy in the subway makes no sense (I consider it to be a screw up) and there's evidence that Sater killed himself multiple times.

PMS_Akali wrote:
How so?


He has some personal history when it comes to the nuns etc. and one just happens to appear in SH?

PMS_Akali wrote:
There is no plot reason as to why the entire town of Silent Hill knows Murphy. We know Sater is a coward because he just read the article about him.


So, it's exuseable when the protagonist does it?


PMS_Akali wrote:Of course he gets info on Walter. Walter is the one who puts him in the chair. He doesn't magically get that info.


So Walter also told him that info while putting him into the electric chair?
 
 
 
 
 
 

Otherworld

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I'm going to town either way ...

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Theory and Analysis: What Is Canon?

Post by Otherworld on Sat Apr 18, 2015 8:34 am

Purramid_Head wrote:
Otherworld wrote:
This does nothing to explain how Angela actually knows this. This is the second time she displays the fact that she has gathered information about James. The entire staircase scene has no meaning at all unless both James and Angela have some understanding of each others plight. It is the only way to add real weight to the scene. And there is no other way for Angela to know the things she does unless the town provides her information just as it did for James in regards to Angela.


Projecting your insecurities on someone is not indicative of having secret knowledge about them from the town.

Why would that only happen for James? What makes him so special?


I never said it did. In fact I said the opposite.

We have had this discussion before, and we know the town provides information to James as the Thomas Orosco article could never exist where he finds it.


It would be easy to argue this. Another easy argument is that we know everyone has a subjective experience in town so there's no guarantee the town would provide information about James to Angela.


Funny though, as James body language suggests Angela hits the nail right on the head. Again. To chalk both instances up as "dumb luck" goes against the entire meaning of the staircase scene.

IMO to overlook the fact that Angela has hit the nail on the head on two separate occasions is overlooking the entire reason why James meets Angela in the first place.

Both times Angela asks James questions..... She already knows the answers. Calling him a liar when he is actually lying and ensuring that he knows that she knows he was unable to care for a loved one.

To me this is superb storytelling....... Not "dumb luck"
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jam6i

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Theory and Analysis: What Is Canon?

Post by jam6i on Sat Apr 18, 2015 11:42 am

Holy shit the quote function was just used a mind numbingly 56 times in a single post. That's outta control.

If I could banish a function of this site, it'd be the quote button. Some people abuse it and it makes reading conversations damn near impossible.
There was a SIGNATURE here. It's gone now.
 
 
 
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