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PMS_Akali

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Theory and Analysis: What Is Canon?

Post by PMS_Akali on Sat Apr 18, 2015 12:57 pm

Actually, you know what? I'm just gonna delete my post. I honestly don't care enough. Through editing and replying, and watching videos to make sure I'm not miss-remembering something, these post are taking stupidly long to make. Sorry, Devil Hunter for making you write all that out for nothing. But the whole reason I didn't want to explain in the first place is evident in our debate. It just goes into circles eventually. It's easier for me to say I didn't like Downpour and you did. I don't have time to write a novel of replies. And I'm sure you're busy as well, lol.

jam6i wrote:Holy shit the quote function was just used a mind numbingly 56 times in a single post. That's outta control.

If I could banish a function of this site, it'd be the quote button. Some people abuse it and it makes reading conversations damn near impossible.


That was my bad, I was trying to make it so that the posts were not 10 pages long so I just didn't even quote everything. I'll be more considerate in the future.
 
 
 
 
 
 

jam6i

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Theory and Analysis: What Is Canon?

Post by jam6i on Sat Apr 18, 2015 1:31 pm

^It's okay. You aren't the one who habitually does it over and over.

One day I'm gonna murder the quote button. "Justifiable homicide".

I mean, I wish there were a way that posts could be limited to the number of times the quote function can be used. That way, an argument could be made more concisely and cleanly, getting the point across more clearly, eliminating the utter mess that endless quoting results in.

It gets old fast seeing entire blocks of text quoted and requoted for the only response to be one or two words like "so?" or "your point?" Breaking down an entire post line by line with quotes is just really messy and makes it hard to follow a conversation.

^It's okay. You aren't the one who habitually does it over and over.


Here's an example.

One day I'm gonna murder the quote button. "Justifiable homicide".


When you break up a post like this.

I mean, I wish there were a way that posts could be limited to the number of times the quote function can be used.


It's really sloppy and makes it hard to follow a conversation.

That way, an argument could be made more concisely and cleanly, getting the point across more clearly, eliminating the utter mess that endless quoting results in.


And it's especially useless when your response is one or two words long like

It gets old fast seeing entire blocks of text quoted and requoted for the only response to be one or two words like "so?" or "your point?"


"Your point?"

I'm bitching I know, but it just makes it hard to follow a conversation when everything is being broken up line by line in quotes and requotes, over and over. Meaning gets lost, intentions get lost, and in the end, nothing is resolved.

Back on topic

So, are the mobile Orphan games canon? I'm not that familiar with the plots of those mobile games. And what about the iOS game "The Escape", is that canon?
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Borg

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Theory and Analysis: What Is Canon?

Post by Borg on Sat Apr 18, 2015 1:33 pm

To be fair, it would be a lot worse if the quote function wasn't used. It's just messier without it. This way it's easier to follow and tidier. Nobody likes messy people.

@PMS_Akali no need to apologize, I was kind of a jerk, it was a good conversation though imo.
 
 
 
 
 
 

Otherside

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Theory and Analysis: What Is Canon?

Post by Otherside on Sat Apr 18, 2015 1:46 pm

jam6i wrote:And what about the iOS game "The Escape", is that canon?


The Escape has no plot IIRC.
 
 
 
 
 
 

PMS_Akali

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Theory and Analysis: What Is Canon?

Post by PMS_Akali on Sat Apr 18, 2015 1:47 pm

devil hunter wrote:To be fair, it would be a lot worse if the quote function wasn't used. It's just messier without it. This way it's easier to follow and tidier. Nobody likes messy people.

@PMS_Akali no need to apologize, I was kind of a jerk, it was a good conversation though imo.


It's cool, man.
 
 
 
 
 
 

jam6i

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Theory and Analysis: What Is Canon?

Post by jam6i on Sat Apr 18, 2015 2:23 pm

Yes, the escape is a paper thin product with no plot. But it does have a game-plot of "you are someone stuck in random hallways having to find keys and shoot SH enemies for some reason."

So...does that scenario possibly exist in the SH-verse? I'm curious about that. I mean, I know the escape was totally nothing but a cash grab iOS title...but still, I wonder.
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PMS_Akali

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Theory and Analysis: What Is Canon?

Post by PMS_Akali on Mon Apr 20, 2015 8:31 am

I assume just like the SH Arcade, it wasn't really made with story in mind. Though, I guess it wouldn't matter one way or the other since it doesn't add anything.
 
 
 
 
 
 

Lain

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Theory and Analysis: What Is Canon?

Post by Lain on Mon Apr 20, 2015 1:17 pm

On the topic of canonicity... there is perhaps another way of looking at Silent Hill, that honestly I think I prefer.

Silent Hill 2 was my first SH game and, even though I'd never played or even heard of the first game, it was clear as day to me that SH2 was a standalone experience that had no strong connection to the events in the previous title. It seems silly in retrospect, but at the time I honestly wondered if there even was an original "Silent Hill 1" or whether they just decided to arbitrarily put a "2" at the end of their game's title.

And honestly... I kind of like that idea. Each game (with the exception of 3 an Origins since they're direct continuations of SH1) being its own canon, much like how each main Final Fantasy game is essentially its own canon even if it might share similar themes, plotlines, settings and aesthetics with other FF titles.

It might be due to SH2 being my first game, but to me Silent Hill is a setting best used to tell many different tales rather than to continue one plotline through multiple entries. And with some entries taking the horror beyond the borders of Silent Hill and into neigboring towns... maybe it'd be best if we weren't just tied to one town called Silent Hill either?

By that I don't mean to continue to push the horror further out from the borders of Silent Hill, but rather to take the Final Fantasy approach. Much like how each FF has Sid, but it's a new Sid... what if each SH game had a town called Silent Hill, but it was a completely different Silent Hill?
 
 
 
 
 
 

Otherworld

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Theory and Analysis: What Is Canon?

Post by Otherworld on Mon Apr 20, 2015 3:30 pm

Lain wrote:On the topic of canonicity... there is perhaps another way of looking at Silent Hill, that honestly I think I prefer.

Silent Hill 2 was my first SH game and, even though I'd never played or even heard of the first game, it was clear as day to me that SH2 was a standalone experience that had no strong connection to the events in the previous title. It seems silly in retrospect, but at the time I honestly wondered if there even was an original "Silent Hill 1" or whether they just decided to arbitrarily put a "2" at the end of their game's title.

And honestly... I kind of like that idea. Each game (with the exception of 3 an Origins since they're direct continuations of SH1) being its own canon, much like how each main Final Fantasy game is essentially its own canon even if it might share similar themes, plotlines, settings and aesthetics with other FF titles.

It might be due to SH2 being my first game, but to me Silent Hill is a setting best used to tell many different tales rather than to continue one plotline through multiple entries. And with some entries taking the horror beyond the borders of Silent Hill and into neigboring towns... maybe it'd be best if we weren't just tied to one town called Silent Hill either?

By that I don't mean to continue to push the horror further out from the borders of Silent Hill, but rather to take the Final Fantasy approach. Much like how each FF has Sid, but it's a new Sid... what if each SH game had a town called Silent Hill, but it was a completely different Silent Hill?



I am not too keen on the concept of "completely different Silent Hills"

Regardless of that, going forward I really do not see the origin story being touched on again....

That said, I still think that each can be it's own canon because we will probably get a standalone experience in every future entry. But it should be done in a way to add to the existing lore and expand on it. I do not want to see new lore contradict existing lore.

There is more than enough room to expand things without walking all over the past ........
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Theory and Analysis: What Is Canon?

Post by Xuchilbara on Mon Apr 20, 2015 7:58 pm

Silent Hill Shattered Memories is the only game that has done that so far. I don't really care for that in terms of SH, but I love SHSM. Maybe even more than 2.
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Theory and Analysis: What Is Canon?

Post by clips7 on Mon Apr 20, 2015 8:23 pm

Otherworld wrote:
Lain wrote:On the topic of canonicity... there is perhaps another way of looking at Silent Hill, that honestly I think I prefer.

Silent Hill 2 was my first SH game and, even though I'd never played or even heard of the first game, it was clear as day to me that SH2 was a standalone experience that had no strong connection to the events in the previous title. It seems silly in retrospect, but at the time I honestly wondered if there even was an original "Silent Hill 1" or whether they just decided to arbitrarily put a "2" at the end of their game's title.

And honestly... I kind of like that idea. Each game (with the exception of 3 an Origins since they're direct continuations of SH1) being its own canon, much like how each main Final Fantasy game is essentially its own canon even if it might share similar themes, plotlines, settings and aesthetics with other FF titles.

It might be due to SH2 being my first game, but to me Silent Hill is a setting best used to tell many different tales rather than to continue one plotline through multiple entries. And with some entries taking the horror beyond the borders of Silent Hill and into neigboring towns... maybe it'd be best if we weren't just tied to one town called Silent Hill either?

By that I don't mean to continue to push the horror further out from the borders of Silent Hill, but rather to take the Final Fantasy approach. Much like how each FF has Sid, but it's a new Sid... what if each SH game had a town called Silent Hill, but it was a completely different Silent Hill?



I am not too keen on the concept of "completely different Silent Hills"

Regardless of that, going forward I really do not see the origin story being touched on again....

That said, I still think that each can be it's own canon because we will probably get a standalone experience in every future entry. But it should be done in a way to add to the existing lore and expand on it. I do not want to see new lore contradict existing lore.

There is more than enough room to expand things without walking all over the past ........



This is where I've always been with Silent Hill. Each entry can be a stand-alone concept with different storylines and characters keeping the series fresh. While there are absolutes within the series itself such as the fog world and Otherworld levels, SH can still be a place of the unknown in terms of being creative with their otherworld locations and the creative designs of the creatures themselves which have been known to already have an obscure and disturbing look compared to other creatures in other horror games.

So I agree there is no need to re-invent the wheel if dev's just create new storylines with interesting characters and impressive creature designs/animations and mannerisms.
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Theory and Analysis: What Is Canon?

Post by Otherworld on Tue Apr 21, 2015 8:36 am

Purramid_Head wrote:Silent Hill Shattered Memories is the only game that has done that so far. I don't really care for that in terms of SH, but I love SHSM. Maybe even more than 2.


Yup, but it was created like that on purpose. The creators ensured it was known to be a reimagining. And it worked great.

clips7 wrote:This is where I've always been with Silent Hill. Each entry can be a stand-alone concept with different storylines and characters keeping the series fresh. While there are absolutes within the series itself such as the fog world and Otherworld levels, SH can still be a place of the unknown in terms of being creative with their otherworld locations and the creative designs of the creatures themselves which have been known to already have an obscure and disturbing look compared to other creatures in other horror games.

So I agree there is no need to re-invent the wheel if dev's just create new storylines with interesting characters and impressive creature designs/animations and mannerisms.


Downpour had the right idea. It was just lacking in execution.

I had posted in another thread that just because there are absolutes in the series does not mean that it has to be tied down creatively.

For instance, the dark heart "rule". jam6i had posted that the rule takes away from the mystery of the story. But IMO that rule can have a plethora of different meanings and interpretations.

It really all comes down to the right people thinking creatively, and then being able to execute well.

I mean Downpour's story is a good example. Especially Anne. Did any of us have a idea of why Anne would be in the otherworld in the beginning of DP ? Her reasons for being called were very original IMO.

Imagine DP created on the Fox Engine. Imagine DP given the right amount of time to be refined correctly. Imagine DP with awesome monster design. Imagine DP with 2 separate walkthroughs. 1 for Murphy and 1 for Anne. Imagine DP with the old school look of the otherworld. Imagine DP without the void chase sequences. The list can go on and on.

^ This is the potential a good stand alone story can bring to the table. A just because there are vague rules in place does not mean it takes away from the creativity. All it does is lay a solid foundation.
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Post by Xuchilbara on Tue Apr 21, 2015 10:51 am

I would be ok with a reboot where we get a new series of games in an alternative universe though.
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Theory and Analysis: What Is Canon?

Post by Otherworld on Tue Apr 21, 2015 11:14 am

Purramid_Head wrote:I would be ok with a reboot where we get a new series of games in an alternative universe though.


As long as it is stated before hand. Sounds good. I mean we got SHSM that way.
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Theory and Analysis: What Is Canon?

Post by clips7 on Tue Apr 21, 2015 3:44 pm

I'd be oppose to a reboot quite honestly, because there really isn't a need for one. The series isn't like Tomb Raider where that series desperately needed a reboot.

Square Enix and Crystal Dynamics got it right which was surprising because Square's FF series has been lacking, but that is most likely because Square was only the producer where Crystal Dynamics was the developer....and if it isn't Metal Gear, Konami will offer the game to the lowest bidder....I don't trust them to make wise decisions when it comes to SH. SH can pretty much re-invent itself with some talent that can be creative in their concepts/story and design for each outing.

SM was a one-shot entity, because I cannot see how you can create an alternate universe for SH when you can pretty much do something different in the original universe anyway. I'm not even sure you can do more with SM's universe simple because of the way it's set up...it's really a one trick pony.

The newer games already feel like an alternative universe.."cough*..."BOM"...*cough*.. ....:D :pirate: ....
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Theory and Analysis: What Is Canon?

Post by Otherworld on Tue Apr 21, 2015 6:13 pm

^ Ya, even though I am not totally against the idea of a reboot. I have agree clips7.

The franchise is positioned to reboot itself with each entry. As long as these entries don't go against established lore.

That being said, it seems like every entry from now on is a one trick pony.

So there could be room for both.....

I don't know, SM was a decent entry IMO so I wouldn't mind something else coming along.... Along the same lines....

Ya, I know... Clear as mud... :lol:
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Theory and Analysis: What Is Canon?

Post by Pyramid_Heart on Sun Jun 14, 2015 4:55 pm

Canon is that thing fans have no say in.
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Theory and Analysis: What Is Canon?

Post by Rodox_Head on Sun Jun 14, 2015 5:17 pm

Pyramid_Heart wrote:Canon is that thing fans have no say in.


Something a lot of fans are too deluded to understand. (not you guys here though, at least you guys are sane)
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Post by clips7 on Tue Jun 16, 2015 3:41 pm

I think as far as canon goes, the franchise has stayed pretty much grounded.....nothing like the RE series that has jumped the shark, killed it and topped it off with chicken wings and hot sauce.

Even tho I felt the later games in the SH franchise were a bit watered down, they are still good games that hold on to the roots of the series....BOM tho....I would have to say...jumped the shark....I believe that game is supposedly canon when it just should have been a stand-alone entity not connected to any of the games at all....just a MP based SH game period...:coffee:
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Theory and Analysis: What Is Canon?

Post by MisterY on Fri May 13, 2016 6:21 pm

Maybe a stupid question, but do somebody knows where i can find analysis
in Dutch Language?
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