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Lobsel Vith

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Post by Lobsel Vith on Sun Apr 06, 2008 11:18 pm

Sorry, but common sense still wins here. You can flash all the fancy BS translation mumble jumble Chivcoobidu (sarcasm) to English translation BS you want, but it doesn't it work, because it defies common sense!

Now let me spell it out, since you don't seem to be getting it.

1. The settlers come to Silent Hill. They hear natives speak. Natives talk about the Gods they worship.

2. Settlers write down teh names of the Gods, spelling them how they sound. They hear THREE names. "Joo-jee-pa-ba" becomes Xuchilpaba, "Joo-jee-ba-ra" becomes Xuchilbara, and "Lob-sal Veeth" becomes Lobsel Vith.

3. Three names. Three Gods.

You however seem to think that the following happened.

1. 1. The settlers come to Silent Hill. They hear natives speak. Natives talk about the Gods they worship.

2. Settlers write down teh names of the Gods, spelling them how they sound. They hear three names. "Joo-jee-pa-ba", "Joo-jee-ba-ra" and "Lob-sal Veeth". However, becoming utterly confused by Xuchilbara and Xuchilpaba they decide that the natives call the red God by these two names. This of course makes logical sense, because in every religion there are Gods that can have a variation of the spellings. But amazingly main deities are never given names.

3. Three names. Three Gods. One god has two names, the main deity doesn't.

Oh yes! That is so logical, and makes so much sense!

Oh wait! Option 2.

1. The settlers come to Silent Hill. They hear natives speak. Natives talk about the Gods they worship.

2. Settlers write down teh names of the Gods, spelling them how they sound. They hear THREE names. "Joo-jee-pa-ba" becomes Xuchilpaba, "Joo-jee-ba-ra" becomes Xuchilbara, and "Lob-sal Veeth" becomes Lobsel Vith.

3. These settlers disappear, but leave documents behind.

4. Second group comes in, they find the documents, and see "Crimson one is Xuchilpaba, Red God is Xuchilbara, Yellow God is Lobsel Vith." They decide that even though there are three Gods, it's obvious that one of the gods has two names, but amazingly the main deity doesn't have one.


But you know why your theory doesn't work? Because the names Xuchilbara and Xuchilpaba were heard and written at the same time.

No, I doubt the natives would be using two names for one deity, but absolutely no name for another one.
 
 
 
 
 
 

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Post by NightFlutter on Mon Apr 07, 2008 1:29 am

I always thought it was the same one, and that the spelling got messed up in translation. What you say makes sense, but I don't understand why they would make them so similar. But, Xuchilpaba and Xuchilbara both have the color red involved with them, so that could be where the Xuchil prefix comes from...and if that's the case, then that would make sense.
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Lobsel Vith

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Post by Lobsel Vith on Mon Apr 07, 2008 2:16 am

NightFlutter wrote:I always thought it was the same one, and that the spelling got messed up in translation. What you say makes sense, but I don't understand why they would make them so similar. But, Xuchilpaba and Xuchilbara both have the color red involved with them, so that could be where the Xuchil prefix comes from...and if that's the case, then that would make sense.


I believe Moeru also mentioned somewhere that the Japanese versions of the names are different, with different meanings. If they were the same name they would have the same meaning, regardless of the spelling.

If I recall, according to Moeru

Bara = Born from
Paba = Old woman
 
 
 
 
 
 

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Post by Purramid_Head on Mon Apr 07, 2008 4:53 am

Hm. So the fact that Xuchilpaba has a red book and crimson ceremony is a mere "concidence" to Xuchilbara being the red god. Yep. No relation there, even remotely. I get it.

Lobsel, Xuchil is a word that has already been tampered with even more so than the names there. Xochitl is the original word, now see how different that is to Xuchil? Yet, they mean the same thing in different dialects. In fact Xuchil is a post conquest word. To you the original Natives spoke a language that was the same all the time and so did the settlers. Languages never changed it based on two letters being swapped they must simply be different gods because of "common sense", even though the vowels are even the same!

'And its still pronouced 'sh' not 'z', Nahuatl doesn't have 'z' or English
j' sounds. Actually you should know this! Because Nahuatl is spelt how its pronouced in Spanish! SO the english 'j' sound doesn't even exist!

Check it out: http://members.aol.com/maroic/xiumol.wav

Also, I remember Godzilla. A translater thought that the people were calling it "Godzilla" when they were in fact calling him Gojira. The name has stuck ever since in English. So yes, different people can hear different things.
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Post by ERROR on Tue Apr 08, 2008 1:46 pm

Do you know for a fact that "Xuchil-" is the derivitive of "Xochitl-" or is that just an assumption on your part?

Because I'm pretty much positive that it's an assumption and is also totally irrelevant.
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Post by Purramid_Head on Tue Apr 08, 2008 2:55 pm

Actually its not a assumption.

This is true and the word Xuchil is still popular in Mexico as a word.

http://www.lizgallego.com/aztec_vocabulary.htm

Shows the difference.

I could probaly get a book reference or two as well.

My friend probaly knows more than I about it, since hes betters at Nahuatl. I believe I have a convo about it somewhere, but its not on this forum and it doesn't nesscerly have to do with SH.


I'm not sure how I would just make this stuff up or assume it. If you ask someone from Mexico, they'd have a better clue to what I am talking about.

I know you don't know me so well, but Lobsel does. And I will ask for sources to be cited.

Also, the Xuchil and Xochitl both have unvoiced <l> there.

Heres a actual scholarly source:
http://www.ciesas.edu.mx/jaff/1%20the%2 ... ieties.pdf

Page 8, note 11.
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Lobsel Vith

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Post by Lobsel Vith on Tue Apr 08, 2008 7:18 pm

So as not to derail this thread anymore, I've written a theory about how and why Xuchilbara and Xuchilpaba are different entities.

And yeah, I know Xul quite well. Unfortunately Xul, you have this horrible habit of thinking that every theory has to follow your own preconceived notions of the real world, and the religion contained within. To make it slightly worse you're so obsessed with the Meso religion that it's almost as if the spiritual aspects of Silent Hill have to follow your guidelines.

Which isn't true. They don't have to follow any guidelines, but the creators.
 
 
 
 
 
 

ERROR

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Post by ERROR on Tue Apr 08, 2008 7:37 pm

Exactly. Neither the natives' religion nor The Order's are officially influenced by anything but Judeo-Christianity (and, in The Order's case, the natives'). The application of other influences onto The Order's is necessary because it rarely holds weight. Flauros/Haurus the demon of angelology bears little resemblance to that of the creature in Silent Hill: Origins; the traits of Metatron also bear little the Metatron of Silent Hill's mythology.

They're just not interchangeable like you want them to be.
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Lobsel Vith

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Post by Lobsel Vith on Tue Apr 08, 2008 7:57 pm

Although I thought I read that it went something like this.

Native religion - This fictional religion created by Owaka, was inspired in the real world by certain various religions (Japanese Shinto, Mesoamerican, and Native Beliefs.) In the Silent Hill world, the only influence is the Native religion.

The Order - In the game, influenced by the Natives beliefs and Judeo Christianity. (Actually, I'd like to say Gnostic Christianity.)


But, no, I think I get what you're saying. The religion of Silent Hill has a habit of using the same name and ideas from other religions (namely Christianity) but the appearance differs.
 
 
 
 
 
 

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Post by Purramid_Head on Wed Apr 09, 2008 11:40 am

It defenately is not just influenced by Christianity.

Actually I think with what Lobsel said about Vincent upping its popularity, more Christianity was added to it to make it "safe" and "nice" feeling. Especially more Catholism. Its similar to what Neopagans and Wiccan often do to appeal to the mainstream and outsiders more.


I think theres alot of influence to the SH religion and it isn't limited to only Mesoamerica, SHintoism, and etc. Theres also Celt, Babylonian, Buddhism, & Norse for example. Well all of it might not influence the cult, but the going ons in SH more so.

>To make it slightly worse you're so obsessed with the Meso religion that it's almost as if the spiritual aspects of Silent Hill have to follow your guidelines.

Likewise you focus on Christianity to much, but I don't complain too much about that. To me the SH religion is polytheistic and very "pagan", with Christian infleunces. I think the problem here it that we have two seperate view points and judging by what you said in the other thread your ideas of the religion is very Western (which is not a bad thing.) and influenced by your Christianity and Gnosticism. As is your views on science. So its all a arguement on us personally, and our opinions/viewpoints which appear to be drastically different.

I thik Moeru agreed with me that the Mesoamerican stuff was added to supplement the Native beliefs, and there are some similarities like animism.
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Post by ERROR on Wed Apr 09, 2008 12:33 pm

You're missing the point. Again, from what I remember.

Ito and Owaku may have used those religions and beliefs as influences for the religion created for the game, but they are officially not influences for either the natives' beliefs nor The Order's. There is, in fact, a difference and they are not interchangeable.

If you don't understand that I'm not sure how else to explain it succinctly w/out the use of an elaborate diagram.
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Post by Purramid_Head on Wed Apr 09, 2008 12:36 pm

I don't recall saying anything about what you're accusing me of. I was simply listing influences. I did say I think Owaku and the staff were using Mesoamerican religion to supplement the Native's beliefs in the game.

Do you understand what I am saying here? Its like the memo in SH3 about burning at the stake and piercing the victim's heart, this got insipration from Mesoamerican rituals. Therefore we can conclude that the Natives most likely had human sacrifice.

I think you're only saying here "Christianity is the only influence with in the game that counts." (Other than the Native religion.) and you're mistaking that I am saying all these other religions are counting within the game, and I am not.
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Post by ERROR on Wed Apr 09, 2008 12:39 pm

>Do you understand what I am saying here?
Yes. Do you? Because I still don't think you do.
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Post by Purramid_Head on Wed Apr 09, 2008 12:41 pm

*sigh* I think you're arguing for the sake of arguing.


I also think Judaism and the occult count as influences in the game as well. Samael is not a Christian name.
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Post by ERROR on Wed Apr 09, 2008 12:59 pm

Definitely not "arguing for the sake of" it. That would be dumb.

I also said Judeo-Christianity.

But no, they are not influences for the natives or The Order. For the writers of the game, yes, but not in the context w/in the game.
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Post by Purramid_Head on Wed Apr 09, 2008 1:06 pm

Are you sure? Because the Order has been using black magic for awhile & it goes onto say that the Order's beliefs are influenced by demonology as well. (Of course its Judeo-Christian I'm assuming that its referring too.) I'm talking about the occult beliefs here, I'm not sure if you would consider that "Judeo-Christian" or just something else alltogather.

SH1 guide book:
Dahlia and the others were using
it to mean something that impedes the malevolent deity (what they call God). This is because they
consider the roots of demons, as they are called in conventional religions, to be not far removed
from those of the god of the land in which they believe.
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Lobsel Vith

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Post by Lobsel Vith on Wed Apr 09, 2008 9:00 pm

Samael is not a Christian name.


Tell that to the Gnostic Christians.

But it's a Jewish name, and Christianity is ultimately derived from Judaism.

Image

A chart

on the left side are all of the religions that probably influenced Owaka in creating the religion of SH.

On the right are the two religions that make up the Order.

As you can see there's a huge difference, and only two from the list on the left can go into the list on the right.
 
 
 
 
 
 

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Post by Purramid_Head on Wed Apr 09, 2008 9:03 pm

Doh I forgot about Gnostic. But I don't know much about them so...


Wait you only labeled Gnostic Christianity on SH influence in the game, but Catholism is clearly present.

Actually a more accurate one would go like this...

SH Native religion is influenced by Shintoism, Mesocamerican(Aztec & Mayan), Judeo-Christian, (Maybe some Mesopotamian as well. As the SH2 memo on Acacia.) angelology and demonology. If you want to get technaical, well it has more so to do with the gameplay, the ideas, and the town itself rather than the cult. Then what influences the otherworld idea is Celtic, Japanese, Norse, Buddhist, Mesoamerican and etc

Then we have the Order, that would be infleunced by Christianity and Judaism both in game and out game besides the original Native religion.

The demonology thing is part of the in game religion, I think i quoted the SH1 guide book on that. The fact that Dahlia doesn't want the red liquid to come in contact with Alessa proves this. But of course we can also label this simply "Judeo-Christian"
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Lobsel Vith

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Post by Lobsel Vith on Wed Apr 09, 2008 9:15 pm

I was being general in that chart.

I also didn't include Catholicism because I put it under the umbrella of Christianity. I mean, I could have also listed all of the sects of Christianity, but that'd just be overbearing.

Also I feel that angelology/demonology falls under that category of "Christianity"
 
 
 
 
 
 

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Post by Purramid_Head on Wed Apr 09, 2008 10:24 pm

Yeah I agree with you.
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