Sexuality, homo... [spoilers] [xxx]

[gustavopi]

I was thinking about Cheryl's sexual development when this question came into my mind: - is she homosexual?

That's depends how the player see the game. I'm from the group that think she, at list in some point, lost her self identity to fill with Harry (a construction of her). At the beginning, it seams to me that she got an early puberty playing near the lake, but I'm not sure. Also there is the hot Cybil, witch means that this aspect will change every game.

According with our doc, in school the real bad things will occur. He already put some terms to test her. So she get in the school without a father and a week mother (later we know that the problems begun before but no problem can be bad as death). She can't have a "normal" relationship with boys, there is the sex game, etc., and the bulling to complete the work. Her "friend" finally give up and there is the Michele's performance of "You are always on my mind" that make the man came out of her at last! The scene is, to me, a symbol of the desire came in slowly (starts in the shop?).

From the school, she realizes that didn't have her time yet and Dahlia (with Sid and Nancy) in on the stage now! Dahlia sends a SMS in the School but there is no much sense, and now she take control. Yes, it's Harrys "avatar" with her, but is still the same person, and it's all about memories, there is some true behind. It's a confusing situation, that reflects her when out of school now, with no known references. There is also Lisa that is in this context to but also reveals more troubles as responsibility and guilt, to be developed in Toluca's Mall.

Now our doc will approach to sex and marriage, since she is a formed person. There is two enigmatic encounters after: Old Dahlia in the apartment and Young Dahlia in the boat. In the first one, Cheryl presents herself as Harry and Old Dahlia like it - is this a problem? In the second, she not only presents as he but go trough deeply! (WOW ) Is the perfect dream: Harry is alive and love is in the air! But also this situation make me think if Cheryl really desires a woman or the "lesbian" behavior is all part of her's delusions? Shattered memories bring together to picture something that make sense?

That's enough! Says the doc: you got to live your live! And how is it? That's the question...

[Axiomatic]

I was thinking about Cheryl's sexual development when this question came into my mind: - is she homosexual?

That's depends how the player see the game. I'm from the group that think she, at list in some point, lost her self identity to fill with Harry (a construction of her). At the beginning, it seams to me that she got an early puberty playing near the lake, but I'm not sure. Also there is the hot Cybil, witch means that this aspect will change every game.

According with our doc, in school the real bad things will occur. He already put some terms to test her. So she get in the school without a father and a week mother (later we know that the problems begun before but no problem can be bad as death). She can't have a "normal" relationship with boys, there is the sex game, etc., and the bulling to complete the work. Her "friend" finally give up and there is the Michele's performance of "You are always on my mind" that make the man came out of her at last! The scene is, to me, a symbol of the desire came in slowly (starts in the shop?).

I suppose you could view things this way, but that is if you view Cheryl trying to remember her father in an idealized light is the same as her sharing those desires she thinks her father might hold. There's a difference between Cheryl thinking, "This is what my father SHOULD and WOULD have liked" and, Harry simply being an avatar of Cheryl. I do not think Harry is an avatar in the sense that Harry is really just Cheryl walking through the game.

From the school, she realizes that didn't have her time yet and Dahlia (with Sid and Nancy) in on the stage now! Dahlia sends a SMS in the School but there is no much sense, and now she take control. Yes, it's Harrys "avatar" with her, but is still the same person, and it's all about memories, there is some true behind. It's a confusing situation, that reflects her when out of school now, with no known references. There is also Lisa that is in this context to but also reveals more troubles as responsibility and guilt, to be developed in Toluca's Mall.

Cheryl's view of her mother and father's relationship shows a couple things to me: (1) how she views her mother as a monster and less than ideal, (2) how her mother was problematic in the relationship, and (3) how Harry was ever the shining knight.

Now our doc will approach to sex and marriage, since she is a formed person. There is two enigmatic encounters after: Old Dahlia in the apartment and Young Dahlia in the boat. In the first one, Cheryl presents herself as Harry and Old Dahlia like it - is this a problem? In the second, she not only presents as he but go trough deeply! (WOW ) Is the perfect dream: Harry is alive and love is in the air! But also this situation make me think if
Cheryl really desires a woman or the "lesbian" behavior is all part of her's delusions? Shattered memories bring together to picture something that make sense?

That's enough! Says the doc: you got to live your live! And how is it? That's the question...

I think the young Dahlia scenario is a romanticized, distorted view of how a good couple would consummate. For Cheryl, her parents needed to make love on a boat. For her, it's important that they were a loving couple.
I think the Old Dahlia could function as a slip up in the game.

Most importantly, by the time we see Old and Young Dahlia near the latter part of the game, Cheryl's facade is becoming shattered. They are revelations about what she thinks of her mother as well as her mother and father's relationship. Seeing Old Dahlia and then Young Dahlia afterwards is, I think, a reflection of Cheryl more than it is an endorsement of Cheryl being homosexual.

[gustavopi]

I don't think Harry is just an avatar and this is hard to explain... What did happens to her is a process, she didn't wake in a morning thinking is Harry (as in most of cliché movies), this sort of deviant behavior begins with fantasies that came true inside of the mind. I think when she get out of school, she finally "incarnates" Harry .

But I agree with your ideas. I tend to think that she is homosexual and she needs to vanish with the idealized father to realize that (we say here: get out of the closet). I'm just not sure because this is not my area, I'm a hetero and my female side is lesbian!

[Axiomatic]

I am just having trouble understanding how Cheryl could be homosexual (I could see that perhaps she experimented in high school or something, but that's a stretch for me without evidence). In order for me to believe that, I would need to see that Harry is merely Cheryl's avatar in her navigation of memories. If this is true, then this dramatically changes how we should view the game: we should think that the fantasies that Cheryl experiences are what she wants to happen, that she wants to have sex with her mother.

But if Harry isn't an avatar or only an avatar, then it's tough for me to believe that because other explanations seem to fit better for me. By Harry not being an avatar, I think it seems like Cheryl is really just trying to preserve this idealized portrait of her father.

[WhiteClaudia]

But if Harry isn't an avatar or only an avatar, then it's tough for me to believe that because other explanations seem to fit better for me. By Harry not being an avatar, I think it seems like Cheryl is really just trying to preserve this idealized portrait of her father.

This. It's basically a way of "filling in the gaps", but everything that happens isn't "directly" from her. If you can understand what I'm trying to say.... I also don't believe that she is homosexual for this reason.

[Axiomatic]

But if Harry isn't an avatar or only an avatar, then it's tough for me to believe that because other explanations seem to fit better for me. By Harry not being an avatar, I think it seems like Cheryl is really just trying to preserve this idealized portrait of her father.

This. It's basically a way of "filling in the gaps", but everything that happens isn't "directly" from her. If you can understand what I'm trying to say.... I also don't believe that she is homosexual for this reason.

I think filling in the gaps is a perfect way of putting it. Empirical studies show that we don't remember things as accurately as we think we do, and when we recount an event, we fill in the gaps - sometimes drastically dramatizing or undercutting what actually happened. We see that this is happening to Cheryl.

[gustavopi]

I am just having trouble understanding how Cheryl could be homosexual (I could see that perhaps she experimented in high school or something, but that's a stretch for me without evidence). In order for me to believe that, I would need to see that Harry is merely Cheryl's avatar in her navigation of memories. If this is true, then this dramatically changes how we should view the game: we should think that the fantasies that Cheryl experiences are what she wants to happen, that she wants to have sex with her mother.

But if Harry isn't an avatar or only an avatar, then it's tough for me to believe that because other explanations seem to fit better for me. By Harry not being an avatar, I think it seems like Cheryl is really just trying to preserve this idealized portrait of her father.

I think I got your point. If she is trying to preserve Harry's portrait by been him (and not just an avatar), than the feelings are fakes, she is just pretending. Maybe I'm just blocking this possibility! However, she only have sex before Dahlia in one time (and not always you play) with the guy that dies strangled while she does... you know... =D but she didn't realize herself. Looking at all her past, I'm still in doubt of what is pretending and what is real.

[Axiomatic]

Well, my point is that in order for the homosexuality interpretation to hold, Harry would need to be only an avatar, that is, Cheryl's way of exploring the memories. But I happen to think that Harry is a real manifestation brought about by Silent Hill and Cheryl's desires. Silent Hill brings this about.

I wouldn't say she is just pretending.

Instead of Harry being an avatar, we could interpret Harry as if he were real - as if all the events were real - and we could then interpret the whole scenario as a way of Cheryl creating or trying to preserve an idealized picture of her dad. It's essential for Cheryl to preserve this picture because her world has been based around how bad her mother is and how her father was this white shining knight who is or was on his way to save but was deterred by amazing events.

[gustavopi]

Tricky all this, uhn...

You know, the second time I play this game I became really disturbed in some points. When she meet Old Dahlia in the apartment, I put myself in Dahlia's skin for a second. He dies a long time ago, now Cheryl came in dressed and acting like him, with his ring, and his eyes... and then Dahlia plays a "closer" game... what from this is real? Freeze!!! Got to run, now, daddy...

[Axiomatic]

Part of what's important about that scene is that I think it represents how ugly and withered Cheryl thinks her mother is. I don't think Cheryl came in dressed as him. I think Harry and that Dahlia did meet.

What do you mean by a closer game?

In general, whenever the ice comes, it's to deter Harry.

[devil hunter]

I don't she's homosexual. The game is called "shattered memories" and it's about Cheryl who couldn't let go of her dad, she couldn't except he was gone. She went to Kauffman to help her deal with her issues.

Harry is not her avatar. You're exploring her memories, her thoughts about her father, mother etc. The reason Cybil may have big boobs etc. I see that as some hints how her father was, Kauffman tries to help her deal with what kind of a father Harry was. Was he an alcoholic, a ladies man? etc.

[gustavopi]

Part of what's important about that scene is that I think it represents how ugly and withered Cheryl thinks her mother is. I don't think Cheryl came in dressed as him. I think Harry and that Dahlia did meet.

What do you mean by a closer game?

In general, whenever the ice comes, it's to deter Harry.

I think the most important part is how Cheryl see his mother. Therefore this part is also important when analyzing only the sexual issue. Also when Dahlia freezes, Cheryl touch her face in an enigmatic scene of dualistic feeling - she got a bad view of mother, but not for sure.

Closer game I mean intimate game: - ok, you play as the father so I'll play as the mother. It's a dangerous and desperate attempt of brake the "status quo". Of course, Cheryl's mind block it at once.

By the way: what a cool sequence of down the stairs!

devil hunter: you may be right, but get off the surface. Harry will be a construction of shattered memories with parts that she put in fill the empty spaces. What is from the father, what is from herself, what came from outside?

[Axiomatic]

Part of what's important about that scene is that I think it represents how ugly and withered Cheryl thinks her mother is. I don't think Cheryl came in dressed as him. I think Harry and that Dahlia did meet.

What do you mean by a closer game?

In general, whenever the ice comes, it's to deter Harry.

I think the most important part is how Cheryl see his mother. Therefore this part is also important when analyzing only the sexual issue. Also when Dahlia freezes, Cheryl touch her face in an enigmatic scene of dualistic feeling - she got a bad view of mother, but not for sure.

Closer game I mean intimate game: - ok, you play as the father so I'll play as the mother. It's a dangerous and desperate attempt of brake the "status quo". Of course, Cheryl's mind block it at once.

By the way: what a cool sequence of down the stairs!

devil hunter: you may be right, but get off the surface. Harry will be a construction of shattered memories with parts that she put in fill the empty spaces. What is from the father, what is from herself, what came from outside?

The thing is, we don't think Harry is an avatar. If Harry is not an avatar, then I do not think it is Cheryl meeting Dahlia. in that scene you mention, gustavopi.

How Cheryl sees her mother is important, but only if Harry is an avatar, this rules out a sexual interpretation, that is, it rules out Cheryl having sexual feelings because the purpose of the sexual encounters between Harry and Dahlia represent Cheryl's attempt to preserve and make up this fairy tale.

Regarding your question (I know you asked devil hunter, but I'd like to try and answer), there's very little from the father since he died when she was so young (but that little bit of time she did have with her father is very important and matters a lot). There's likely more from the mother, but it seems like most of it comes from Cheryl herself.

[devil hunter]

I agree with Axio. I didn't played the game for some time, so don't remember some details and I'm not sure if this what I'm writing is 100% true, but I think she "constructs" her father, how he was like, how he acted. It's not about her father being her avatar but Harry being what she thought about her father etc. deep inside her mind.

[Axiomatic]

I agree with Axio. I didn't played the game for some time, so don't remember some details and I'm not sure if this what I'm writing is 100% true, but I think she "constructs" her father, how he was like, how he acted. It's not about her father being her avatar but Harry being what she thought about her father etc. deep inside her mind.

Even without all the details, you're right to say that she "constructs" her father to some degree.

When it comes to memory, we think we remember the event accurately. We do not. We fill in the gaps. This is an empirical finding in science (I can look for a source if people would like to see).

Based on this sort of empirical finding, I am making an inference that Cheryl is doing this exact thing: she is filling in the gaps of her shattered memories. A lot of the game is focused on her not confronting the fact that her father died in a car crash and that is it. There are no monsters, there is no ice world, and there weren't crazy, otherwordly circumstances which separated you and your father. The constant rewinding of the tape in the main screen is Cheryl reliving the best moments she has and can see of her father, and each ending (I guess the UFO ending being an exception) is the reveal of how Harry really was.

The same way Cheryl is avoiding viewing the ending of tape in the beginning is the same way Cheryl idealizes and avoids the fact of the matter: Harry Mason died in a crash, and that's it.

[nur_ein_tier]

Also there is the hot Cybil, witch means that this aspect will change every game.

You've mentioned Harry being an avatar for Cheryl, but I thought part of game's gimmick was also that Harry is an avatar for us, the players. Hot Cybil struck me as fanservice more than anything.

She can't have a "normal" relationship with boys, there is the sex game, etc., and the bulling to complete the work.

Lots of people have bad relationships and trouble with relationships, whether they're straight, gay, or whatever. While she may have relationship issues, I don't really see how this can be interpreted as beign gay. Lots of hetero people have relationship problems.

As someone else said, I don't see the encounters with young Dahlia as anything but projections of her views of relationships. I don't really see Harry getting with young Dahlia as the same thing as Cheryl herself getting with young Dahlia, in fact, I saw it as closer to Cheryl getting with Harry.

I suppose she could be a closeted lesbian or something (not sure I saw any behavior suggesting she was a lesbian), but I interpreted things as her using her Harry avatar and making him behave in ways she assumed a heterosexual male would behave.

I think another important aspect that's being ignored is the first-time playthrough illusion that you actually ARE playing as Harry. If Harry started making out with young boys in the game (or at least Cheryl's agemates), that might have struck us as weird.

[Axiomatic]

As someone else said, I don't see the encounters with young Dahlia as anything but projections of her views of relationships. I don't really see Harry getting with young Dahlia as the same thing as Cheryl herself getting with young Dahlia, in fact, I saw it as closer to Cheryl getting with Harry.

This is what people typically conclude. I just don't see the homosexual element, gustavopi.

[gustavopi]

Well, it's not some specific situation but the all story make me got the idea. But I must be seeing too much, so I asked!

However, even if all Harry's encounters are "pretending", if we assume calls and messages as real memories (distorted but real) there is Dahlia's messages to Cheryl/Harry's phone as an element. Maybe young Dahlia is lesbian and Cheryl just upset and confused, disillusioned with the last relationship. But I think you may be right, there is no elements enough of typical homosexual behavior in the game.

Dr. Kaufmann make a philosophic speech about sex, and give us a punch in stomach: "You know, people who are getting enough don't need analysis. You clearly are not getting enough." lol

[gustavopi]

She can't have a "normal" relationship with boys, there is the sex game, etc., and the bulling to complete the work.

Lots of people have bad relationships and trouble with relationships, whether they're straight, gay, or whatever. While she may have relationship issues, I don't really see how this can be interpreted as beign gay. Lots of hetero people have relationship problems.

We can almost say that is normal to have relationship issues in the school. But a hetero girl will desire another boys and will persist in this kind of sex. We don't choose the desire, we can only deny it. In Chery's case, denying hetero sex can be explain, but not Dahlia. There is some lesbian element here, even if not enough to mark Cheryl as lesbian.

[schlaufuchsMIKE]

Part of what's important about that scene is that I think it represents how ugly and withered Cheryl thinks her mother is. I don't think Cheryl came in dressed as him. I think Harry and that Dahlia did meet.

What do you mean by a closer game?

In general, whenever the ice comes, it's to deter Harry.

Wow, you made sense of that for me. She's keeping Harry's memory alive and blocking everything out with ice...

REVEAL SPOILER

until the end when he arrives at the end and she has been convinced to move on, when she blocks him out (and he freezes over).

I've been wondering about how the ice ties in. That totally blew my mind!