Insert_Void

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21 Sacraments ending: ¿The end of the world?

Post by Insert_Void on Mon Oct 05, 2015 7:46 pm

I post this to open a discussion about the possible canonicity of this ending. Usually, people disregard the notion of HH and DP happening in a timeline where Henry wasn't able to stop Walter's murderous spree. Thus far, the main point (in fact, the only one) used to validate this claim is the, in my opinion, mistaken concept that 21 sacraments ending inevitably signifies Doomsday happening.

Frankly, i don't understand this, since nothing that we hear or see during its cinematic cutscene suggest to us the idea that the world has ended.
REVEAL SPOILER
Quite the contrary, the newscast we hear seems to imply that the world remains oblivious of the true nature of the events that have taken place at South Ashfield Heights (it says that Eileen dies at St. Jerome from her injuries and that the bodies of Frank Sunderland, Henry and five cops have been found inside the building) and that ,maybe, the apartment is now the epicenter of a new curse that will slowly make The Town quite similar to the titular town.


Just because a religious zealot wrote on a scroll that god will bring paradise if you kill yourself in order to become a murderous poltergeist, and some the things he wrote about were not just a bunch mumbo jumbo it does not means that he was right. After all, if this were true, man, that's means that someone has to been able to complete said ritual succesfully. Big kudos to our society, for being more resilient than a space Cockroach and not changing in spite of the whims of a bunch of apocalyptic entities.

To the people that is so against this possibility: i can understand that the prospect of the last entry in the main series ending with a (quite literal) glorified Game Over is the most disappointing and depressing thing since the Phantom Menace, but still, you don't need to act like James Sunderland. Seriously, asseverating opinions based on subjective reasoning while, at the same time, disregarding evidence that point to the contrary is not a valid claim
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Otherworld

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21 Sacraments ending: ¿The end of the world?

Post by Otherworld on Tue Oct 06, 2015 12:02 pm

The Holy Mother sec within the Order believes this ritual will create "Paradise". When Paradise does come, the world will be cleansed by fire deeming some to be "unnecessary"

Maybe the cleansing has yet to begin .....
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21 Sacraments ending: ¿The end of the world?

Post by Naroon on Tue Oct 06, 2015 12:13 pm

Your post seems to have ended on a cliffhanger there, m8.

I don't think we have to assume that if the 21 Sacraments ritual succeeded, that the world would just instantaneously end in an excessively rapid manner. The ending's tone and atmosphere just seems to imply that shit is immediately fucked up and it will continue to become more fucked up. The mention of the five cops somehow being dead seem to point to that, although it doesn't mention other tenants being magically deceased or killed by paranormal means, so that's a bit odd, but was probably written that way to imply the gradual spread of the ritual's effects.

But yes, were SH4 to for whatever reason actually have a canon ending, it's possible that this could be it. I'm glad later devs never decided to claim what was and wasn't canon in regards to previous games because that would've just been hella contrived for no good reason. HC and DP could very well take place in a world where another town was slowly becoming really supernaturally fucked up. Shepard's Glen itself is proof that there already were other places that contained supernatural properties, at least overtly, anyway.
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21 Sacraments ending: ¿The end of the world?

Post by Lilith on Tue Oct 06, 2015 12:41 pm

Otherworld wrote:The Holy Mother sec within the Order believes this ritual will create "Paradise". When Paradise does come, the world will be cleansed by fire deeming some to be "unnecessary"

Maybe the cleansing has yet to begin .....

The 21 sacraments has God saying "cleanse the world with my rage". But it is during the actual rites. Not sure if they believe the world will end like the woman's sect.
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21 Sacraments ending: ¿The end of the world?

Post by Otherworld on Tue Oct 06, 2015 12:58 pm

Purramid_Head wrote:
Otherworld wrote:The Holy Mother sec within the Order believes this ritual will create "Paradise". When Paradise does come, the world will be cleansed by fire deeming some to be "unnecessary"

Maybe the cleansing has yet to begin .....

The 21 sacraments has God saying "cleanse the world with my rage". But it is during the actual rites. Not sure if they believe the world will end like the woman's sect.


Regardless of the sect, wouldn't the Orders idea of Paradise be wide spread among all of them?

I just look at it like all the different sects, in one way or another subscribe to the same type of idea of what Paradise is ...

Maybe I am wrong ....
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21 Sacraments ending: ¿The end of the world?

Post by Naroon on Tue Oct 06, 2015 1:09 pm

I thought there was already evidence that showed even in terms of paradise there were disagreements. E.g. with Claudia in SH3, she disagreed with her father's various ideals and there are documents showing other conflicting takes on the cult's religions and ideals.
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21 Sacraments ending: ¿The end of the world?

Post by Lilith on Tue Oct 06, 2015 1:16 pm

Each sect demonizes the others rites and says it is of the devil, so probably not. The HM sect believes God will descend via an object. You could be right tho, since they all have the same mythos.
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21 Sacraments ending: ¿The end of the world?

Post by Insert_Void on Tue Oct 06, 2015 1:48 pm

Otherworld wrote:The Holy Mother sec within the Order believes this ritual will create "Paradise". When Paradise does come, the world will be cleansed by fire deeming some to be "unnecessary"


Maybe the results of the ritual extent only to the inmediate surroundings of the place where it has taken place.


Otherworld wrote:Maybe the cleansing has yet to begin .....



While not exactly my thoughts, i believe that something like this could be also possible.


Naroon wrote:The ending's tone and atmosphere just seems to imply that shit is immediately fucked up and it will continue to become more fucked up. The mention of the five cops somehow being dead seem to point to that, although it doesn't mention other tenants being magically deceased or killed by paranormal means, so that's a bit odd, but was probably written that way to imply the gradual spread of the ritual's effects.



You know, said corpses are those of Frank, who is the superintendent of the building, and of five cops. I think that they are dead because they tried to enter the apartment. After all, the cops would like to interrogate the some neighbours of Eileen in order to advance the WS copycat case. Who better to start with than a man who lives next to the victim's home and who has not been heard or seen for quite a time, in a manner quite reminiscent to the disappearance of the previous tenant of the apartment? In order to enter the apartment, they would ask for the help of the superintendent, who is more than willing to colaborate (as we can see when he tries to enter Henry's apartment) and happens to have the keys.

Once the ritual was completed, it stopped acting like an isolated echosystem (Once Joseph was murdered, it was accessible for Henry) and became more similar to a haunted place or a dimensional portal of sorts, so it kills anyone who stays in there for too long (like in room 1408), hell maybe the forensic team who found the corpses will be found dead the next day. Perhaps the reason that the other tenants remain safe an sound is because they haven't tried to enter the apartment and investigate it.


Naroon wrote:HC and DP could very well take place in a world where another town was slowly becoming really supernaturally fucked up. Shepard's Glen itself is proof that there already were other places that contained supernatural properties, at least overtly, anyway.


I think this could be the case.


Purramid_Head wrote:The 21 sacraments has God saying "cleanse the world with my rage". But it is during the actual rites. Not sure if they believe the world will end like the woman's sect.


Naroon wrote:I thought there was already evidence that showed even in terms of paradise there were disagreements. E.g. with Claudia in SH3, she disagreed with her father's various ideals and there are documents showing other conflicting takes on the cult's religions and ideals.



Both of you bring something that's quite spot on to the table. The Women's sect always seemed more akin to those stereotypical cults who seek to summon a living god created from a human body who will bring salvation to the faithful and doom to the unworthy in order to purge the world of its unwanted elements. On the other hand, the Mother's sect Paradise, at least in Walter's case, seemed more like an isolationist reward where those who are deemed worthy can enter and enjoy eternal joy and those who are deemed sinful have their entrance forbidden and are instantly killed,

But i think that any secondary expansion on this subject (the Holy mother and Holy Woman theological conflict) is more appropiate for another topic, like God's true form or a new one created for that purpose, maybe titled "Holy woman and Holy mother's god differences".

PS:

Naroon wrote:Your post seems to have ended on a cliffhanger there, m8.



Ups, my bad. No more cliffhangers, buddy.

Please, notify me any kind of grammatical mistake or confusing expression that may make difficult to understand my comments.
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21 Sacraments ending: ¿The end of the world?

Post by Otherworld on Tue Oct 06, 2015 1:54 pm

In an overall, general sense of the orders beliefs I always thought that the vision of paradise would be somewhat the same between the sects ....
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21 Sacraments ending: ¿The end of the world?

Post by Naroon on Tue Oct 06, 2015 2:50 pm

Insert_Void wrote:You know, said corpses are those of Frank, who is the superintendent of the building, and of five cops. I think that they are dead because they tried to enter the apartment. After all, the cops would like to interrogate the some neighbours of Eileen in order to advance the WS copycat case. Who better to start with than a man who lives next to the victim's home and who has not been heard or seen for quite a time, in a manner quite reminiscent to the disappearance of the previous tenant of the apartment? In order to enter the apartment, they would ask for the help of the superintendent, who is more than willing to colaborate (as we can see when he tries to enter Henry's apartment) and happens to have the keys.


Yes that makes absolutely perfect sense, not sure why I didn't think of that, haha. A shame that Frank died, he was kinda likable, what with the whole "I don't have a problem keeping this severed umbilical cord inside a box for a very long period of time, besides it smelling funny" thing.

Ups, my bad. No more cliffhangers, buddy.


Heh, no problem. The way the sentence just abruptly ended with no punctuation or anything, I thought maybe you'd typed up a lot more but it didn't get sent through or something, as if the forum only accepted an auto-saved draft.
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21 Sacraments ending: ¿The end of the world?

Post by Insert_Void on Wed Oct 07, 2015 2:13 pm

Otherworld wrote:In an overall, general sense of the orders beliefs I always thought that the vision of paradise would be somewhat the same between the sects ....


I thought the same, but if we take into consideration the fact that HW and HM are two sepparate sects that share the same mythos, it seems weird that one of them would affirmate that the other's god is the devil just based on the rituals needed to bring paradise.

If it were a case of the HW followers thinking that the 21 sacraments are just a waste of time, there wouldn't be anything more to it. But the HW firmly believes that the 21 sacraments summon not god but a devil, so they don't doubt its magical effectiveness. Why vilify something that you believe is effective and theoretically could make you get what you want? And as we can see during the games in which each sect is involved, both rituals are effective, so the only logical reason for this kind of behaviour is that there must be some difference in their results.

Something like that wouldn't be too far of a stretch, since one procedure involves getting a chosen woman pregnant in order to birth god (or fuse with him) and the other involves a series of ritualistic murders in order to summon god into an object.


I know that this is silent hill, and trying to find any rational logic behind its lore (specially when it comes to the order and its various sects) is useless, but still... :ugeek: :ugeek: :cut:
 
 
 
 
 
 

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21 Sacraments ending: ¿The end of the world?

Post by Otherworld on Thu Oct 08, 2015 12:00 pm

Another logical reason for this behaviour is clear difference in their belief systems. Those systems are fundamental to how any religion works. It drills down to the core of the very elements that make up the system.

And, with any sect of the Order .... if you don't believe ... you'll never receive salvation.
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21 Sacraments ending: ¿The end of the world?

Post by Lilith on Thu Oct 08, 2015 7:38 pm

Otherworld wrote:Another logical reason for this behaviour is clear difference in their belief systems. Those systems are fundamental to how any religion works. It drills down to the core of the very elements that make up the system.

And, with any sect of the Order .... if you don't believe ... you'll never receive salvation.

Mostly they are divided by practice though, not belief. The two opposing sects seems more orthopraxic than orthodoxic. That is why they have different rituals to descend God.
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21 Sacraments ending: ¿The end of the world?

Post by Otherworld on Fri Oct 09, 2015 10:02 am

Purramid_Head wrote:
Otherworld wrote:Another logical reason for this behaviour is clear difference in their belief systems. Those systems are fundamental to how any religion works. It drills down to the core of the very elements that make up the system.

And, with any sect of the Order .... if you don't believe ... you'll never receive salvation.

Mostly they are divided by practice though, not belief. The two opposing sects seems more orthopraxic than orthodoxic. That is why they have different rituals to descend God.


The difference in sects being more orthopraxic than orthodoxic is something I was trying to convey but you have obviously done a much better job at it.

Thank you.

So in essence they are not that different ....
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