Silenthill4life

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The real antagonist in SH4

Post by Silenthill4life on Sun Jan 04, 2015 10:21 pm

Hi, new here. First time posting a new topic :)

In my opinion I think the true antagonist of SH4 is Walter's dad.

Towards the end of the 2nd run of the apartment world, we have Henry experiencing child Walter's flashbacks/memories of his abusive father with very poignant music playing in the background. This was also right before the final boss battle with Walter.
We get quotes from his father stating things such as "I told you we shouldn't of had a baby!"

I feel like this was done intentionally to draw sympathy to Walter, to show how he was a product of misfortune and bad luck from the onset of his life with the initial cause being his father whom refused to accept responsibility as a parent (for reasons unknown, albeit implied in Frank Sunderland's diary to be potentially from some form of trouble they were in).

Furthermore the fact that his mother wasn't given a voice might symbolise how (at least in Walter's perception) she was oppressed by his father.

In the end if it weren't for his father failing to give Walter the perfect familial life he heavily desired none of the events leading to and including the events of SH4 would have transpired.

What do you guys think?
 
 
 
 
 

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The real antagonist in SH4

Post by Princess Kenny on Mon Jan 05, 2015 12:32 am

i think the abusive dad was implemented because a lot of other serial killers have abusive dads. You could argue his mother is more of a antagonist as he is doing it all in the name to get to what he thinks is his mother.
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Silenthill4life

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The real antagonist in SH4

Post by Silenthill4life on Mon Jan 05, 2015 12:40 am

Princess Kenny wrote:i think the abusive dad was implemented because a lot of other serial killers have abusive dads. You could argue his mother is more of a antagonist as he is doing it all in the name to get to what he thinks is his mother.


Hey thanks for responding Princess Kenny.

Walter was deceived by Dahlia Gillepsie into thinking that the 21 sacrament ritual would resurrect his mother. In fact she was the one who told him that room 302 was where his mother was, prompting his weekly bus trips to South Ashfield from the Wish House Orphanage in an attempt to see his mother.

So yeah using this logic you could also argue too that Dahlia Gillepsie was an antagonist in SH4 lol.

I would have loved it if there was a dlc or even a new game where you could play as Walter's mother or father with them perhaps being punished in the town of SH for leaving their child behind. (Sounds like something you would get called into the town for)
 
 
 
 
 

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The real antagonist in SH4

Post by Princess Kenny on Mon Jan 05, 2015 12:55 am

Also Room 302 is a villain as well as the centerpiece of the game.
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The real antagonist in SH4

Post by Parvatii on Mon Jan 05, 2015 5:48 am

Hm. I don't agree with the real antagonists being Dahlia or his dad. I think it was the people around him and the lack of love that was the real factor in his descent into madness.

All Dahlia told him was if he read the sacrament he'd see his mother. The sacrament is for the sect opposite hers so I doubt she was using him to birth God considering her sect believes it descends the devil not God.
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Silenthill4life

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The real antagonist in SH4

Post by Silenthill4life on Mon Jan 05, 2015 8:11 am

Hey Purramid_Head, thanks for responding.

Could you possibly reference where the members of the sect of the Holy Woman believe that the 21 sacraments would birth the devil?

Is it from a collectible in SH4?

Thanks again for responding!
 
 
 
 
 

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The real antagonist in SH4

Post by jam6i on Mon Jan 05, 2015 10:52 am

Eh, I dunno. I mean a lot of people seem to understand now that Henry was the antagonist to Walter, and "The Room" was Walter's tragic tale.

If the antagonist were someone besides Henry or Walter, then what barrel roles do Henry and Walter fill? Both characters are working against the other, each fulfilling their own end-goals. It's the classic protagonist/antagonist relationship.

If you throw the antagonist label on another person besides these two, it seems like it's nullifying their brotherly struggle.
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The real antagonist in SH4

Post by Marluxia on Mon Jan 05, 2015 11:45 am

Silenthill4life wrote:Hi, new here. First time posting a new topic :)

In my opinion I think the true antagonist of SH4 is Walter's dad.

Towards the end of the 2nd run of the apartment world, we have Henry experiencing child Walter's flashbacks/memories of his abusive father with very poignant music playing in the background. This was also right before the final boss battle with Walter.
We get quotes from his father stating things such as "I told you we shouldn't of had a baby!"

I feel like this was done intentionally to draw sympathy to Walter, to show how he was a product of misfortune and bad luck from the onset of his life with the initial cause being his father whom refused to accept responsibility as a parent (for reasons unknown, albeit implied in Frank Sunderland's diary to be potentially from some form of trouble they were in).

Furthermore the fact that his mother wasn't given a voice might symbolise how (at least in Walter's perception) she was oppressed by his father.

In the end if it weren't for his father failing to give Walter the perfect familial life he heavily desired none of the events leading to and including the events of SH4 would have transpired.

What do you guys think?


Well, not enough of the father is actually put inside the game to justify as the real antagonist. Just that he's a piece of crap, like most of the villains in the series. The father simply was to show prob why Walter is the way he is.. I would think a main antagonist would be in the game for you to actually encounter, not in flashbacks and no longer exists.

It was walter who took his past and turned it into hatred, killing others for his own benefits.

I remember a post long ago on here, putting the idea that Walter was the main protagonist AND antagonist. That the story revolves around Walter and his past, but at the same time, you have to use Henry to tell walters story, as well as end walter as you see he's gone too far. Thread was something along those lines, but it got me thinkin' .. cause Henry has no real emotions and no real past being told within the game.. it's ALL about Walter. Henry is basically just a shadow that you navigate through this world to discover more about this man Walter, and his involvement with the cult.

Prob why they turned the game into a Silent Hill title, because without Walter and the Cult, I see no trace of Silent Hill within the Room.

Makes you wonder.
 
 
 
 
 
 

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The real antagonist in SH4

Post by CrazyCatLady on Mon Jan 05, 2015 1:04 pm

^That is actually false and a common misconception. Silent Hill 4 was always a Silent Hill title.
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The real antagonist in SH4

Post by Parvatii on Mon Jan 05, 2015 2:42 pm

Silenthill4life wrote:Hey Purramid_Head, thanks for responding.

Could you possibly reference where the members of the sect of the Holy Woman believe that the 21 sacraments would birth the devil?

Is it from a collectible in SH4?

Thanks again for responding!

It's a memo at the beginning of the game. The Holy Woman sect believes God will descend from a woman, the opposite sect, the Holy Mother's believes it'll be in an object. THis was the source of major conflict. That's why that rock Nakeehona is referenced, too; the 21 Sacraments is the ritual to put God in an object.
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The real antagonist in SH4

Post by Otherworld on Mon Jan 05, 2015 3:23 pm

Shouldn't Wish House be mentioned as well ?
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Silenthill4life

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The real antagonist in SH4

Post by Silenthill4life on Tue Jan 06, 2015 4:34 am

Purramid_Head wrote:
Silenthill4life wrote:Hey Purramid_Head, thanks for responding.

Could you possibly reference where the members of the sect of the Holy Woman believe that the 21 sacraments would birth the devil?

Is it from a collectible in SH4?

Thanks again for responding!

It's a memo at the beginning of the game. The Holy Woman sect believes God will descend from a woman, the opposite sect, the Holy Mother's believes it'll be in an object. THis was the source of major conflict. That's why that rock Nakeehona is referenced, too; the 21 Sacraments is the ritual to put God in an object.


Hey man thanks for providing the reference.
Just a quick question

Why do you think Dahlia, being a member of the sect of the Holy Woman prompted Walter to partake in the 21 sacraments if it was a ritual worshipped by an opposing sect, the sect of the Holy Mother because there are memos in the game you can collect mentioning Dahlia monitoring Walter's progress.
I think this strongly implies she wants him to be the conjurer for the Holy Mother, but if she believes it brings the devil rather than the god why would she do this?.

Do you think there may have been political motivation because in Walter's conducting of the 21 sacraments he does kill 2 members of the Valtiel sect? Or perhaps Dahlia genuinely wanted to conjure the Holy Mother?

I always thought Walter was Dahlia's back-up plan in case Alessa's return failed.
 
 
 
 
 

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The real antagonist in SH4

Post by Leonard Wolf on Tue Jan 06, 2015 6:22 am

I think the main villain of the game is Walter himself.
His parents, the room 302 and Dahlia were only people/things which made him become what he is, the people featured when the game presented his backstory and his past.

A similar case is John Kramer from Saw, when the movies showed us his backstory about how he became the jigsaw killer, it was shown that the reasons which led him to became Jigsaw were when he was diagnosed as a cancer patient (caused by Dr. Gordon), when the health insurance company denied the coverage he request to seek a treatment (caused by William Easton) and when Jill miscarried their child (caused by Cecil), oh, and of course, after he tried to commit suicide.
But not even for that these people who made him become a killer are the main villains of the movies.
Because if that were the case, his victims would be the villains (as he thinks his subjects are bad people who deserve to be tested, and that he is doing a good thing by testing their will to live) and he would be the protagonist of the movies, not the villain.
But... each case is different.

Using Alessa from the first movie as an example, she may have done gruesome things in the movie (by killing Cristabella and her followers) but she was not a villain, she was a victim, and if did what she did it was because what Cristabella did to her before, therefore Alessa was not evil, she was only seeking her revenge against Cristabella who caused her to be a deformed freak and for that Cristabella was the true villain of the movie.

Another example is Johnny Lawrence from the movie The Karate Kid, he's featured as the main villain, but the TRUE villain of the movie is his master, John Kreese, because if he were a bad guy in the movie, it was because of his master who taught him to be like that.
And another case is Pamela Voorhees from the movie Friday the 13th, because as shown in the movie, she lost her mind and became a serial killer because her son drowned and died after a couple of counselors neglected him, so despite she is the killer/villain of the movie, as she had a good reason to become a killer the true villains of the movie are the couple who caused the death of her son and not her?

Anyway, there are many different cases, the conception of who is actually the villain is very relative, but I think Walter's case is more similar to Jigsaw's case.
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The real antagonist in SH4

Post by CrazyCatLady on Tue Jan 06, 2015 12:09 pm

Walter is the antagonist because Henry is the protagonist. By the definition of a protagonist, Henry is that. The whole game is from his perspective, his point of view. This is the story as told by him. Not to mention, we play him. He's the main character. In order for Walter to be the protag, we'd need to be seeing the story from his point of view, but we're not. The game itself is Henry's story.

Taking from that, Walter would be the antagonist as described by the dictionary definition of an antagonist. He's not only trying to kill the protag (Henry), but trying to prevent the protag from achieving his goal (getting out of this mess alive).

All of the other characters are simply secondary/minor characters, whether villainous or not. Simply being villainous does not make one the main antagonist.
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The real antagonist in SH4

Post by jam6i on Tue Jan 06, 2015 12:39 pm

I think we all know the true antagonist of SH4.

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The real antagonist in SH4

Post by Marluxia on Tue Jan 06, 2015 3:04 pm

Nutmeg wrote:^That is actually false and a common misconception. Silent Hill 4 was always a Silent Hill title.


Is that based solely on the fact that you find the article of him in SH2? or did Team Silent actually say that from the start of developing the room, that it was in fact a SH IP?

Nutmeg wrote:Walter is the antagonist because Henry is the protagonist. By the definition of a protagonist, Henry is that. The whole game is from his perspective, his point of view. This is the story as told by him. Not to mention, we play him. He's the main character. In order for Walter to be the protag, we'd need to be seeing the story from his point of view, but we're not. The game itself is Henry's story.

Taking from that, Walter would be the antagonist as described by the dictionary definition of an antagonist. He's not only trying to kill the protag (Henry), but trying to prevent the protag from achieving his goal (getting out of this mess alive).

All of the other characters are simply secondary/minor characters, whether villainous or not. Simply being villainous does not make one the main antagonist.


Well that's true, it is from Henry's point of view, but he is hardly telling the story. More like some random scared guy on another mans trip, which would be Walters.

By definition, Henry would be the protagonist, but in my eyes, he's merely a window into walters world.

No real backstory of Henry, no real story about him at all. He isn't treated with the same importance as the other protagonists of the series. He has little emotion to anything, very little lines for being the main protagonist, and half the game is in first person view, not allowing you to even see Henry, lessening his importance in the game other than to tell the story of Walter/view the hauntings, imho.

Also, and this is just my thoughts.. Henry and Heather are the only Protagonists FORCED into Silent Hill.. However, we have the first game giving a huge backstory of Heather, as well as the third game clearing more things up. Henry just wakes up, is locked in his room, and has to crawl through different dimensions.. why? Why is he even locked in the room, why was he chosen? The room itself has history, but only that of Walter himself.. Not arguing the fact that Henry is protagonist by definition, but with SH's past, we can accept the fact that they aren't as straight forward as saying "This is the main bad guy, and this is the main good guy", they let you unfold his dark past and the other secrets/theories within the game. Even in past iterations, the antagonists were never focused on to that degree. There were plenty of other villains and characters to wave the player away from encounters of dahlia for example. Now James is what I see as a true protagonist, as the game really revolves all around james, and his past, and he too turns out to be a "monster", except what's different in SH4, is that we just don't directly play as Walter Sullivan, but instead, another victim in walters ritual. This victim is just able to survive long enough to find out more about Walter and his past and why these events are happening.. eileen plays just as big a role in the story as henry.. and really, if they didn't die so quickly, the other victims are the same as well.. another thing supporting my theory that Henry is just the players window into walters world. I also don't remember any real bosses in SH4, except for Walter.. not to mention Walter would eventually stalk you around the entire game.. so, even if not protagonist, the game and it's story still revolves around Walter the most.

My theory, is that henry is just a randomly chosen man, chosen to take us through a story that revolves solely around Walter Sullivan, and the weird events surrounding this apartment, which guess what, also have to do with walter.

I always thought the message on the door from walter in the beginning was always a sign to show that at first, this walter man is trying to keep you safe, because, in the beginning, your room is indeed a safe haven for you to rest from the nightmares outside that door.. or through the bathroom hole lol, whichever.

But anyway, lost train of thought, or I just said everything i needed to say. Just my opinions and theories though.
 
 
 
 
 
 

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The real antagonist in SH4

Post by Lord Zachariah on Tue Jan 06, 2015 4:23 pm

Marluxia wrote:Henry and Heather are the only Protagonists FORCED into Silent Hill.


I wouldn't say Heather was forced into Silent Hill. Sure they killed her dad, but really, it was up to her whether to pursue Claudia or not and who's to say that if she decided not to that she would still see the Otherworld, since it's heavily implied Claudia was the one to bring her into it in the first place.
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The real antagonist in SH4

Post by Parvatii on Tue Jan 06, 2015 6:17 pm

Silenthill4life wrote:
Why do you think Dahlia, being a member of the sect of the Holy Woman prompted Walter to partake in the 21 sacraments if it was a ritual worshipped by an opposing sect, the sect of the Holy Mother because there are memos in the game you can collect mentioning Dahlia monitoring Walter's progress.
I think this strongly implies she wants him to be the conjurer for the Holy Mother, but if she believes it brings the devil rather than the god why would she do this?.


I actually have no opinion on it because I lack evidence. There may not have been an innate sinister motive.

Do you think there may have been political motivation because in Walter's conducting of the 21 sacraments he does kill 2 members of the Valtiel sect? Or perhaps Dahlia genuinely wanted to conjure the Holy Mother?

I always thought Walter was Dahlia's back-up plan in case Alessa's return failed.


Just to clarify it was Jimmy Stone of the V sect who put the Valtiel in his mind to perform the 21 sacraments so I don't think it has anything to do with that. The whole back up plan thing is an old internet hear say theory people like to state as fact but there's no evidence for it. In fact there's evidence against it because Walter was in the opposing sect who Dahlia didn't agree with.
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The real antagonist in SH4

Post by devil hunter on Tue Jan 06, 2015 6:57 pm

Walter is the antagonist of the story. It doesn't matter if his mom and dad abandoned him or not (besides, do we know much about why they did it? I didn't play it in a while so I dunno if the reason of the abandonement is detailed, it's a morally ambiguous situation, though, I guess it says something about them if they just left him alone in the room), sure, some people influenced him in a bad way and are the reason he turned out the way he is so I can understand why people feel sorry for him (I do feel sorry for him in a way too), his life sucks.

But he still kills people in cold blood in brutal ways. He's not entirely a victim. I mean, he beat up Eileen brutally and she's one of the few people who were kind to him, sure his good side made him stop, but he still went to finish the job.

That doesn't make him better.
 
 
 
 
 
 

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The real antagonist in SH4

Post by Silenthill4life on Tue Jan 06, 2015 10:44 pm

Marluxia wrote:Well that's true, it is from Henry's point of view, but he is hardly telling the story. More like some random scared guy on another mans trip, which would be Walters.

By definition, Henry would be the protagonist, but in my eyes, he's merely a window into walters world.

No real backstory of Henry, no real story about him at all. He isn't treated with the same importance as the other protagonists of the series. He has little emotion to anything, very little lines for being the main protagonist, and half the game is in first person view, not allowing you to even see Henry, lessening his importance in the game other than to tell the story of Walter/view the hauntings, imho.


I think Henry's significance as a character comes down to your own personal interpretation. For me Henry seems like the quiet, nice guy that will go through life largely unnoticed and insignificant, so for him to rescue Eileen, defeat Walter and ultimately end the 21 sacraments from being fulfilled ( thus preventing the Holy Mother from being conjured) felt like it was testament to how even the most insignificant and unimportant of people have the capacity to accomplish great, noble deeds.

For me this was very symbolic and I greatly appreciated his character under such an interpretation.

I also wouldn't say he was completely devoid of emotion. There were also some captivating, emotional scenes with Henry. For example when he is in the hospital otherworld examining Eileen's x-rays. This was very moving and showed his care for her. Besides the absence of an emotive personality, for me, just reiterated his shyness which is implied in the game (i.e. when you examine his high school graduation photo with him commentating on how it was uneventful or when you look through the door peephole, Eileen and Richard Braintree converse about how they hardly know the guy)
 
 
 
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