5leve

User avatar

Posts: 9

Joined: Jun 04, 2013

That Descent of Holy Mother business

Post by 5leve on Tue Jun 18, 2013 12:48 am

After some awkwardly extensive thinking on the matter, I think I may or may not have an explanation that describes what the Holy Mother ritual does. I'm not sure if there was a topic on this already; I don't think I saw one.
I might just be repeating what everybody already knows already haha...so I might look pretty dumb.
But could it have been possible that the ritual (gdi that name is too long) would essentially make another (probably more fucked up) Mother to birth God?
I mean, I thought about it, and it makes sense that way.. Dahlia taught this ritual to the children most likely after or during the period of time where Alessa separated into Cheryl and Alessa. So she probably thought the plan might not go down so well (the plan to birth god), and relied on this as a last resort. However, this method was looked down upon by most of the cult because it was probably not a natural way to go about making a Mother. It might have corrupted Mother in some way, or God.
Not only that, but Eileen is dubbed "Mother Reborn". She would probably have been reincarnated into a someone like Heather or Alessa.

Uh, any thoughts?? I feel like Im just spouting information people already know.
Gosh, I'm so nervous. I've not made a topic much less been active on any forum in years. >ㅁ< ;
 
 
 
 
 
 

CrazyCatLady

Member

User avatar

Queen of Alien Relations

Posts: 5074

Joined: Sep 05, 2011

Location: United States

That Descent of Holy Mother business

Post by CrazyCatLady on Tue Jun 18, 2013 3:06 am

Im pretty sure its just another ritual to bring forth God herself. It's called Holy Mother because, as told in the scriptures we read in SH3, they believed God to be female. It's just as Christians call God "Father", here they would call God "Mother". Thus the name Holy Mother or 21 Sacraments of the Holy Mother. :)
Image
 
 
 
 
 

ÆNEMA

Member

User avatar

Posts: 978

Joined: Sep 29, 2011

That Descent of Holy Mother business

Post by ÆNEMA on Tue Jun 18, 2013 4:17 am

Hey, welcome back.

WhiteClaudia wrote:Im pretty sure its just another ritual to bring forth God herself. It's called Holy Mother because, as told in the scriptures we read in SH3, they believed God to be female. It's just as Christians call God "Father", here they would call God "Mother". Thus the name Holy Mother or 21 Sacraments of the Holy Mother. :)
The text seems to make a distinction between the "Mother" and "God," though.

The Last Sign
and God said, separate from the flesh too, she who is the Mother Reborn and
he who is the Receiver of Wisdom.
If this be done, by the Mystery of the 21 Sacraments, the Mother shall be
reborn and the Nation of Sin shall be redeemed.
It seems like the god is referring to an entity other than herself.
Image PRAY YOUR LIFE WAS JUST A DREAM Ω THE CUT THAT NEVER HEALS
 
 
 
 
 

CrazyCatLady

Member

User avatar

Queen of Alien Relations

Posts: 5074

Joined: Sep 05, 2011

Location: United States

That Descent of Holy Mother business

Post by CrazyCatLady on Tue Jun 18, 2013 11:48 am

And that is referring to Eileen as the Mother, not the God. What? Does this ritual somehow bring Eileen back life after she's been chopped into a million pieces, and to only have her pregnant with the God? That just doesn't make sense to me. I think it being a ritual to rebirth the God herself is more likely. It's the whole reason Dahlia turned to Walter after the business with Alessa, and the Order brainwashed Walter into doing it.

That scripture also makes a distinction between the Holy Mother and the Mother Reborn.
Image
 
 
 
 
 

ÆNEMA

Member

User avatar

Posts: 978

Joined: Sep 29, 2011

That Descent of Holy Mother business

Post by ÆNEMA on Tue Jun 18, 2013 1:18 pm

The aggressive tone is unnecessary. I think that this is a different entity than the one Alessa/Heather is pregnant with, and is different from the god depicted in the church in Silent Hill 3, is all. The text referring to the spears hints at that, but seen with Dahlia's deception in the first game, it's difficult to understand the nature of what these "gods" being summoned actually are.
Image PRAY YOUR LIFE WAS JUST A DREAM Ω THE CUT THAT NEVER HEALS
 
 
 
 
 

DarkVoid

Member

Posts: 168

Joined: Jul 31, 2012

That Descent of Holy Mother business

Post by DarkVoid on Tue Jun 18, 2013 1:29 pm

Don't you, guys, see that all these has nothing to do with Alessa or God's rebirth? Walter just misinterpreted the original purpose of that ritual. All he wanted is to be with his mother, so he found it a convenient way to accomplish his own plans. That's all. Also, he doesn't treat Eileen as usually a man treats a woman (you know what i mean), so, I'll make a guess, Walter wanted either her to become his mommy, or Eileen to give a birth to her. I just can't figure out how this fits with his conception of room 302 being his mother? Any ideas?
Hatter: "Do you know why raven is like a writing desk?"
Alice: "Because I'm a child of The Order!"
 
 
 
 
 

CrazyCatLady

Member

User avatar

Queen of Alien Relations

Posts: 5074

Joined: Sep 05, 2011

Location: United States

That Descent of Holy Mother business

Post by CrazyCatLady on Tue Jun 18, 2013 1:54 pm

Uhm, I wasn't being aggressive... At least I wasn't trying to be. If I came as such, I'm sorry, but that wasn't my intention. I'm actually quite fine.

DarkVoid: you do realize that Walter was taught this ritual by the Order right? Dahlia actually talked with Walter when he.was younger and implanted the notion of his mother being the Room, into his mind. It was also Dahlia that made him believe the ritual was about his mom, but the ritual IS actually to rebirth the God (or A God. Whatever God you think it is or isn't). Which.is why the Order had him do it in the first place. They just made him believe otherwise because they knew he wouldnt do it if it had nothing to do with his mother. They actually exploited his love for his mother for their own goals. George Rosten, (a priest in the Order) was Walter's mentor in teaching him the ritual.

The 21 Sacraments didn't actually have anything to do with Walters mom, that's only what he believed. It was actuallconnected to the God. Dahlias involvement is where Alessa has her connection to it. Indirectly. It can be assumed that after the ritual with Alessa, Dahlia moved onto Walter with the 21 Sacraments because the one with Alessa didn't work as planned.
Image
 
 
 
 
 

mikefile

User avatar

Posts: 42

Joined: Jun 09, 2013

That Descent of Holy Mother business

Post by mikefile on Tue Jun 18, 2013 3:22 pm

WhiteClaudia wrote: It can be assumed that after the ritual with Alessa, Dahlia moved onto Walter with the 21 Sacraments because the one with Alessa didn't work as planned.

That's actually untrue. The mommy thing was never Dahlia's backup plan. That's a common mistake. Dahlia's intentions were to screw up Walter's plans because she didn't want anyone to bring God except for her daughter.
Image
 
 
 
 
 

DarkVoid

Member

Posts: 168

Joined: Jul 31, 2012

That Descent of Holy Mother business

Post by DarkVoid on Tue Jun 18, 2013 3:49 pm

Whatever they planned about this little boy - it doesn't matter: he wanted to reunite with his mom. He believed that this ritual will help this to happen. Walter built a world for two of them, which he can fully control. So an issue of the ritual depends solely on his wishes, not on someone else's intentions.
Hatter: "Do you know why raven is like a writing desk?"
Alice: "Because I'm a child of The Order!"
 
 
 
 
 

Xuchilbara

Moderator

User avatar

The Red God

Posts: 8734

Joined: Feb 21, 2006

Location: United States

That Descent of Holy Mother business

Post by Xuchilbara on Tue Jun 18, 2013 3:51 pm

TL;DR

There are 2 main warring sects: Holy Woman and Holy Mother. They disagree on how to birth God, by proxy their rituals of that nature also differ. As the name implies Holy Woman believes that God will be descended into a woman, the people who belong to this sect seem the more extremist and we've encountered more of them than anyone else; Claudia, Vincent, Alessa, Dahlia, and so forth. On the other hand, the Mother sect believes God to be descended from a rock or an object. (I think it's that rock Nakeehona. The differences are illustrated somewhat in the canon part of the memo in the Play Novel which mentions descending God in an object, it's also an idea closer to Shintoism [Some other religions, too.] and probably the Native religion.)The Mothers sect has been rarely seen, but Walter was a part of that group. There's a third group that's somewhat newer; the Valtiel sect whom worship Valtiel as the closest to God, they act as intermediaries between the other two.


Basically, Walter used the 21 Sacraments to descend his "Mother" which is supposed to be God. It's apparent he probably misinterpreted some of the text and seeing the room as his mother he attempted to "give it life" through this ritual. Whether he knew this ritual was intended to descend God or not is unknown. All you need to know is that was the intention of the authors of the text and not of Walter.
WHY NOT ZOIDBERG? (V)(;,,,;)(V)
 
 
 
 
 

CrazyCatLady

Member

User avatar

Queen of Alien Relations

Posts: 5074

Joined: Sep 05, 2011

Location: United States

That Descent of Holy Mother business

Post by CrazyCatLady on Tue Jun 18, 2013 3:53 pm

mikefile wrote:That's actually untrue. The mommy thing was never Dahlia's backup plan. That's a common mistake. Dahlia's intentions were to screw up Walter's plans because she didn't want anyone to bring God except for her daughter.


Well, it's stated that Dahlia did go visit Walter, and told him that his mother was "asleep" in Room 302, but this doesn't really explain that she wanted to ruin his plans. The plan of the 21 Sacraments hadn't started yet at that time. It was this encounter with Dahlia that he started making his trips to the South Ashfield Apartments, and believed the room to actually be his mother. I'm not saying Dahlia started Walter on the 21 Sacraments, that itself is hinted at Walter reading the scriptures and taking an interest in it, but I'm just saying her first encounter with Walter on the topic of his mother and Room 302 is a little fishy. George Rosten, the Valtiel Sect Priest, was his mentor and raised him under the ritual. It is also stated that she watched Walter's progress throughout all this too. But, I guess her intentions are unknown.

DarkVoid wrote:Whatever they planned about this little boy - it doesn't matter: he wanted to reunite with his mom. He believed that this ritual will help this to happen. Walter built a world for two of them, which he can fully control. So an issue of the ritual depends solely on his wishes, not on someone else's intentions.


I don't think the ritual depends on the person practicing it. It is supposed to be a ritual to bring forth the God. It's not for his mother. That is only what Walter believed, but just because he believed that doesn't make it truth. He was wrong.
Image
 
 
 
 
 

Xuchilbara

Moderator

User avatar

The Red God

Posts: 8734

Joined: Feb 21, 2006

Location: United States

That Descent of Holy Mother business

Post by Xuchilbara on Tue Jun 18, 2013 4:06 pm

Page 1 (Close up of the dictionary of religious science)
"Depending on the region each have the characteristic of having
individual doctrines.
From ancient times the practice of offering a living sacrifice was the
only way to avoid disaster.

Page 2
Most believers are those who have chosen to renounce the world for the sake
of their beliefs, while those believers who can not yet give up their
material possessions need to deepen their knowledge of the sacred texts.
However, some believers have a tendency to strictly hide the fact
that they are believers from others.

Page 3
This is because they believed that if the fact that they are believers
becomes known then their effectiveness would become nothing.

Even with black magic, which is thought to have vanished in present times,
its magical spells are actively researched in such areas.

Page 4
In that process an altar set alight with a sacred flame and a symbolic seal
were required. Then by summoning an evil being and bringing it to contact with
a saint a new existence is said to be able to be created.

Page 5
In this case the saint is not limited to a priest, as an inanimate
object can also be used
.
"
WHY NOT ZOIDBERG? (V)(;,,,;)(V)
 
 
 
 
 

DarkVoid

Member

Posts: 168

Joined: Jul 31, 2012

That Descent of Holy Mother business

Post by DarkVoid on Tue Jun 18, 2013 4:50 pm

@Pyramid Head: But what's happening in sh4 is because of Walter's intentions, not those who wrote the book...
@WhiteClaudia: sorry, but you are wrong. Observer's expectations can affect the outcome of an experiment.
Hatter: "Do you know why raven is like a writing desk?"
Alice: "Because I'm a child of The Order!"
 
 
 
 
 

Xuchilbara

Moderator

User avatar

The Red God

Posts: 8734

Joined: Feb 21, 2006

Location: United States

That Descent of Holy Mother business

Post by Xuchilbara on Tue Jun 18, 2013 4:54 pm

^ that was my point, Walter isn't trying to descend god.
WHY NOT ZOIDBERG? (V)(;,,,;)(V)
 
 
 
 
 

CrazyCatLady

Member

User avatar

Queen of Alien Relations

Posts: 5074

Joined: Sep 05, 2011

Location: United States

That Descent of Holy Mother business

Post by CrazyCatLady on Tue Jun 18, 2013 5:02 pm

Okay, it seems you are really misunderstanding what I'm saying. Or things are starting to get confusing.

I'm saying that Walter is performing the 21 Sacraments for his mother. When in actuality it's a ritual to descend God. Walter does not know this because he believes it's specifically for his mother, when it's not. So, as Purr said, he's not performing the ritual under the intention to rebirth the God.

However, you cannot say that I'm wrong, because it's not stated what would happen if the 21 Sacraments were successful. You're making it seem like it's a FACT that the ritual would rebirth his mother, when I don't see this stated anywhere. And I've never heard any of the creators state this as well. He may be performing the ritual to rebirth his mother, but that doesn't mean that is exactly what would happen. I'd say if it's a ritual to rebirth the God (as it's stated it's supposed to), then it's going to be a ritual to rebirth the God.

If you can show me where one of the creators explicitly stated that the ritual would rebirth this mother, then I'll believe you. But at this point, I'd say it's up to the person to interpret.
Image
 
 
 
 
 

DarkVoid

Member

Posts: 168

Joined: Jul 31, 2012

That Descent of Holy Mother business

Post by DarkVoid on Tue Jun 18, 2013 5:27 pm

@WhiteClaudia: please, calm down.
I'm saying that this is similar to the effect of placebo: if you really believe in something very much, it will work. Heather believed that aglaphotis can expell demon (god), so it did.
Hatter: "Do you know why raven is like a writing desk?"
Alice: "Because I'm a child of The Order!"
 
 
 
 
 

gothlolilunatic

Member

User avatar

Shadow Doll

Posts: 1699

Joined: Nov 12, 2012

Location: United Kingdom

That Descent of Holy Mother business

Post by gothlolilunatic on Tue Jun 18, 2013 5:29 pm

But aglaophotis did the same thing in the first game. Heather's belief didn't affect the outcome there.
http://inkedblue.tumblr.com/ <---- author blog
http://authonomy.com/writing-community/profile/c324c2b8-9b3e-4dd5-b7f6-6a896fb9e810/gothlolilunatic/ <----- Authonomy profile
I can believe 6 impossible things before breakfast
 
 
 
 
 

CrazyCatLady

Member

User avatar

Queen of Alien Relations

Posts: 5074

Joined: Sep 05, 2011

Location: United States

That Descent of Holy Mother business

Post by CrazyCatLady on Tue Jun 18, 2013 5:39 pm

I am calm. If I wasn't, you'd know. I think I'm being pretty civil. :lol: Do I have place smileys after all my sentences now?

And yeah, Aglaophatis did work because it was supposed to. :) You're assuming, again, that it wasn't supposed to, when it's never said that it wasn't supposed to. :)

There. :lol: Smileys.
Image
 
 
 
 
 

DarkVoid

Member

Posts: 168

Joined: Jul 31, 2012

That Descent of Holy Mother business

Post by DarkVoid on Tue Jun 18, 2013 11:16 pm

In the first game Aglaphotis worked because Alessa was taught that it would do. So the mark of Samael/seal of Metatron.
Faith is a strength. Didn't you watch the movie?
Besides, Walter already have proven that he is capable of fulfilling his desires (Holy Assumption), so why do you think the result of 21 Sacraments can be different from his expectations?
Also, you can not always rely only on what developers said or wrote in their guides. I remember one said that UFO ending is canon in SH3 (how silly).
Hatter: "Do you know why raven is like a writing desk?"
Alice: "Because I'm a child of The Order!"
 
 
 
 
 

gothlolilunatic

Member

User avatar

Shadow Doll

Posts: 1699

Joined: Nov 12, 2012

Location: United Kingdom

That Descent of Holy Mother business

Post by gothlolilunatic on Tue Jun 18, 2013 11:27 pm

How do you know that was the reason? How do you know that it was faith that made it work, and not the fact the substance had that function in the first place?

Harry used some of it to cure Cybil of the parasite, if I remember correctly. He couldn't have known what it was, or what Alessa was taught it would do, so how can it be that Alessa's belief influenced that? And later on, it was Kaufman using it, not Alessa, so what Alessa believed does not necessarily factor into it. If it's simply that Alessa believed it would work, why did the same substance work on Cybil, who was in no state to believe much of anything and probably wouldn't have believed it even if she'd known about the stuff?

Also, just because one developer made a joke about something doesn't nullify everything the developers say. They created the games, so they set the rules and the canon since it's their creation.

It can be different to Walter's expectation depending on the function of the ritual. Some rituals may be changed by what the person wants from it, but some rituals will have the same results regardless of what the user wanted from them. For example, when Heather read the words to banish the monster, she was simply reading what was on the page, but the monster still disappeared regardless of her expectations. She didn't read that story knowing it would correlate to the impassable monster in the corridor.

Walter was seemingly directed in some respects by the cult to do the ritual. If what he wanted from it was to bring his mother and that information would have changed the ritual, then why would the parts of the cult that wanted him to do it (if not Dahlia herself) allowed him to continue with this belief? I doubt he would've stayed quiet about it, surely it would've been noticed if Dahlia was feeding him misinformation to mess up the ritual.

Oh, and no, I haven't watched the movie. The movie has little to do with the canon of the games regardless. As far as I'm aware, it runs on a separate continuity.
http://inkedblue.tumblr.com/ <---- author blog
http://authonomy.com/writing-community/profile/c324c2b8-9b3e-4dd5-b7f6-6a896fb9e810/gothlolilunatic/ <----- Authonomy profile
I can believe 6 impossible things before breakfast
 
 
 
Next


Return to Silent Hill 4: The Room



Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest