captain crowbar

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Silent Hill 3: Feminist Perspective

Post by captain crowbar on Sat Aug 17, 2013 2:18 am

And to think, I just thought I was using random stuff I found to progress through the game to the end.
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Silent Hill 3: Feminist Perspective

Post by Xuchilbara on Sat Aug 17, 2013 2:59 am

^ This is silent Hill were talking about.
fromelmstreet wrote:I think the moonstone comparison might be onto something as well.
Yes it does. The moon have to do with the cycles of nature and women. I'll get more in depth into it when I'm not at work.
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Silent Hill 3: Feminist Perspective

Post by devil hunter on Sat Aug 17, 2013 3:10 am

Anigav wrote:^ This is silent Hill were talking about.


Indeed, some puzzles in the games are symbolic.

Lucifer wrote:So what about Murphy being kept in Silent Hill against his will? Can this be attributed to false imprisonment.


Well, you are kind of right. Downpour does have prison symbolism, not sure if there's necessarily "false imprisonment" symbolism, don't remember.
 
 
 
 
 
 

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Silent Hill 3: Feminist Perspective

Post by Xuchilbara on Sat Aug 17, 2013 9:15 am

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Menstrual_ ... d_the_moon

While the moon is connected to menstruation, it's also connected to fertility.
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Silent Hill 3: Feminist Perspective

Post by Lucifer on Sat Aug 17, 2013 9:36 am

Where is the evidence for a Marxist analysis of Silent Hill 4? Where is there an exploration of means of production? Where is there a discussion of an oppressor-oppressed dichotomy? Your comparison is disanalogous: There is evidence for abortion themes and subtext.
Really? You don't see it? Walter is the capitalist. In order for Walter to make capital (profit) he needs to exploit the workers (the sacrifices). The proletariat in return are exploited and suffer. In SH4's case they pay the ultimate sacrifice in order for Walter to make capital(in this case returning to his mother and creating paradise). Capitalists consider more than money in what they believe is profit. And the fact that Henry is trapped in Walter's world is a clear allusion to how many proletariat are consider "trapped" because they have to play along with what the capitalist tells them to do, even if it is detrimental to their health. If they don't then they starve or as with Henry, if he had just stayed in his room he most likely would have died either way. After playing SH4 it was clear to me that the game meant to show us that we don't have to follow what the capitalist(Walter) desires out of us and we can fight it(revolution), ultimately leading us to our freedom (communism).

Makes perfect sense to me.

Yes, because getting a coat hanger, stretching it out, and using it to grab a ladder in a game whose themes largely deal with pregnancy is all just a fanciable coincidence. :lol: Seriously though, I would rather go with occam's razor and the best explanation since the game relies on symbolism is that it is alluding to back alley abortions.
To me I thought it was a very sexist part of the game. Despite there being another table in the room in which Heather can just stack them up to get to the ladder, she for some reason does not do that. What do women stereo-typically do when they are stressed out over something? They go shopping. The fact that the solution to the problem lay in a clothing store alludes to how women can't solve problems on their own with what is presented and so have to rely on "shopping." Very sexist. Don't you find it offensive that the game starts with Heather at of all places the mall?

The coat hanger puzzle leads to the 300th door and moonstone which is confirmed to be about pregnancy and childbirth.
What is your source on this?
 
 
 
 
 
 

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Silent Hill 3: Feminist Perspective

Post by gothlolilunatic on Sat Aug 17, 2013 10:00 am

So now it's sexist for Heather to be doing something a normal teenage girl would be doing? There's a difference between following harmful stereotypes and someone doing something a normal person of their age would do.
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Post by Xuchilbara on Sat Aug 17, 2013 10:11 am

Lucifer wrote:Really? You don't see it? Walter is the capitalist. In order for Walter to make capital (profit) he needs to exploit the workers (the sacrifices). The proletariat in return are exploited and suffer. In SH4's case they pay the ultimate sacrifice in order for Walter to make capital(in this case returning to his mother and creating paradise). Capitalists consider more than money in what they believe is profit. And the fact that Henry is trapped in Walter's world is a clear allusion to how many proletariat are consider "trapped" because they have to play along with what the capitalist tells them to do, even if it is detrimental to their health. If they don't then they starve or as with Henry, if he had just stayed in his room he most likely would have died either way. After playing SH4 it was clear to me that the game meant to show us that we don't have to follow what the capitalist(Walter) desires out of us and we can fight it(revolution), ultimately leading us to our freedom (communism).

Makes perfect sense to me.


I guess you didn't read the article because your assertions to equate what I have said don't make sense. Feminism has a long history and it's very outside of Communism and Marxism. The other thing that makes me think you didn't read it is because you ignore the very happenings in the game, which allude to fears that women experience and not men. I guess the giant fetuses that cry when you stun them don't do it for you.

To me I thought it was a very sexist part of the game. Despite there being another table in the room in which Heather can just stack them up to get to the ladder, she for some reason does not do that. What do women stereo-typically do when they are stressed out over something? They go shopping. The fact that the solution to the problem lay in a clothing store alludes to how women can't solve problems on their own with what is presented and so have to rely on "shopping." Very sexist. Don't you find it offensive that the game starts with Heather at of all places the mall?


As Goth said, how is this sexist? Nothing in there says only men shop or women shop, in fact she wasn't even shopping for herself! She was shopping for Harry, is he sexist for sending his daughter to run shopping errands for him now?

What is your source on this?


You could have just googled it, but Lost Memories and SH wiki both have infomation about it.
Read it and weep:
From "Silent Hill 3:" The moon door

The message on the door that reads "piling up the 300th day and night"
followed by "cries of pain are heard" is a metaphor for the sequence of
events from conception to childbirth. It suggests the harsh fate that
awaits Heather, who has become pregnant with God.

IMAGE: Heather in the shopping mall
Since it's the "moon door," a moonstone was chosen as the item that opens it.
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Silent Hill 3: Feminist Perspective

Post by Mercury on Sat Sep 07, 2013 7:11 pm

Lucifer wrote:And my post is that it was not possible to make Heather oversexualized because the situation she was in didn't allow it.
REVEAL SPOILER


Miss T wrote:Not everything in these games has to be deep and symbolic.
No, but that doesn't mean we have to overlook and easily dismiss things either. In the past, the smallest things have been proven to have a significant impact. Something as small as a date in a diary or a flyer on the ground gave us the ability to establish a timeline.

I'm surprised no one has mentioned the walnut being being cracked with the vise. I always viewed it as the "nuts in a vise" expression, especially considering that the texture of a walnut resembles that of a scrotum and the moonstone resembled a testicle. The penis itself was waiting in the basement! :P This was also in a torture room as well. Either idea works though as they both tie into the constant theme of genital mutilation seen in the game.
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Post by nur_ein_tier on Sat Sep 07, 2013 8:19 pm

And my post is that it was not possible to make Heather oversexualized because the situation she was in didn't allow it.

Plenty of games have women wearing next to nothing in dangerous situations. I would posit that the danger in the situation is not the only reason. That, and the developers themselves said so and have talked about arguing over the matter, eventually compromising by giving her a skirt and curly hair to make her appear more feminine (but not oversexualized).

To me I thought it was a very sexist part of the game. Despite there being another table in the room in which Heather can just stack them up to get to the ladder,

I would suggest that stacking two small tables on each other would be a lot more dangerous than just climbing on one and using a found object to reach the ladder.
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Silent Hill 3: Feminist Perspective

Post by Xuchilbara on Mon Sep 09, 2013 5:04 am

I like it when people try to debunk the feminist perspective of 3, since it's insanely hard to. It deals with issues only a biological woman can face and as well, the idea of leftist socialist marxism being the origins of feminism is ridculous. The French Revolution was the starting point of feminism carried into the modern era. As seen in the 1700's Women's Petition to the National Assembly. I also remember Empress Wu quoted as saying she believed the genders were equal.



I made another version, this time about Shattered Memories.
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Post by nur_ein_tier on Tue Sep 10, 2013 5:36 am

Reminds me of someone calling me a damn fool for suggesting that the coat hanger in sh3 could be related to abortion. Apparently, it was a young person who had no idea of the symbolism.

While it's true that sometimes, people go overboard on the analysis, I think in SH3 these things were all put here for a definite reason. The sexual/birth/abortion imagery is everywhere. And when I say "sexual" imagery, I am mainly referring to great big purple penis in the subway. It's the opposite of a vagina dentata.
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Post by Xuchilbara on Sat Sep 14, 2013 6:21 am

The imagery is from beginning to end, literally, with Claudia being swallowed up to make a birth canal. (unbirthing?) Now on SH wiki, someone is trying to tell me her fears are a result of the situation. Including that she was forced. Ok, but that doesn't detract from the feminist perspective because forced pregnancy via raped is still a female issue and worrying about it is again a female issue. Even birthing a demon and the pain it brings, she's thinking of the pain during childbirth. How does pointing any of this out detract from my statements? In fact a lot of it still reinforces my ideas.

My favorite was the dolls in the room mean she has a motherly aspect. So what? She could still fear childbirth/pregnancy.
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Silent Hill 3: Feminist Perspective

Post by PEACETALKER on Sat Sep 14, 2013 1:40 pm

captain crowbar wrote:And to think, I just thought I was using random stuff I found to progress through the game to the end.


Hah


Normally I would argue that it's just sort of dumb to be putting that much thought into the coat hanger stuff but I mean as it was stated before it was put there for a reason. There could have been a billion ways to figure out how Heather could have pulled that ladder down but instead they went with a coat hanger found in a women's clothing store. I think there was definitely thought put into that.

Now as for Heather being a ground breaking example of feminism...I think that warrants a deeper discussion. Not saying I necessarily disagree.

It should be noted that Heather doesn't really have any agency until midway through the game when she decides to go to Silent Hill and even then she is mostly directed around by Vincent and his directions. Also, Heather's struggle for independence from the god fetus isn't really her goal until later in the game, mostly she is trying to get home to her father and then seeks to avenge his death. Harry's death I think is very important to note when discussing Heather as a feminist example because his death really is the catalyst for her trip to Silent Hill.
From what I recall, had Alessa successfully spread the crest throughout the town, the God would've been obliterated, or warded off. Instead Harry stepped in post-God-birth and murderized the shit out of the God. - NarooN
 
 
 
 
 

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Silent Hill 3: Feminist Perspective

Post by Venithil on Sat Sep 28, 2013 5:15 pm

It always kind of baffled me that Heather gets overlooked as far as female personas and role models go. Sure, she may be a little tomboyish, but she's also sensitive and caring. Yet, despite those positive and generally female-associated characteristics, Heather is by far the character that handles the horrors of Silent Hill best from all the protagonists. At a point through the game, she learns to take things in their stride and make grim, dark-humored jokes about the other characters. Once everything is done, the first thing she does is cry for her father, then the second thing... scaring Douglas shitless with a joke.



Silent Hill 3 undeniably also touches on a lot of female-related problems, such as pregnancy, birth, "control over their own body", maturity as a woman and female approach to (potential fear of) sex. (Slurpers are faceless, short/boxer-wearing males that try to push Heather down and crawl over her...)

Should we however overread this or see only one side of the puzzle when it comes to it?

As she develops, she is fighting against the role of a mother. This is very positive and important because Heather is, albeit unintentionally, fighting against the fact that she is to be used only to reproduce. (Even if that role is the “Mother of God”.) She is more than the role of the “Mother of God”. She seeks to empower herself and to maintain her independence. But most of all, she seeks happiness and life, rather than her counterpart Alessa, who seeks an escape from suffering through death. She isn’t afraid of suffering, she is ready to confront it.


Is Silent Hill 2 sexist towards males or females by making it a crucial part of the game to protect a female character from other (mostly) feminine monsters (associated with the main character's WIFE, no less) and then lead her through a long passageway where a masculine being constantly attempts to stab/thrust into her only to ultimately fail at this purpose at the very end?


She refuses to be forced to be a “mother”, while some of that may have to do with being scared of pregnancy, she isn’t willing to sacrifice her independence at this point in her life or sacrifice her life at all. most of all though, she survives through her own skills and abilities.


This isn't the only view on parenthood presented by Silent Hill 3, though.
If we read it in that way, Harry's personal doubts about Heather's re-birth can also be read as fear of fatherhood (especially lone fatherhood), and yet coming through for their child and generally becoming a very positive and loved figure in the life of a daughter.

Also, the baby that Heather is so eager to get rid of (abortion symbolism?), Claudia, who originally started off younger than Alessa, but eventually gained more "life experience", is willing to sacrifice her own life (or, earlier, the life of her best friend from childhood) to bring into the world. Essentially, an *older and more mature female character than Heather* is eager for motherhood, as opposed to a younger female character being unwilling to give up their independence/life to bring another life into the world.
It's more about a person growing up enough to become a parent (or realizing their own capability to do such is limited, then desperately craving it), rather than being completely adverse to giving a woman a role as a mother. It's worth noting that Alessa had a bad relationship with her mother, her reincarnations both loved their parents, and yet they're both adverse to birthing the God. Claudia, who has a horrible relation with her own father is, on the other hand, eager to take the burden from Alessa's hands when the opportunity presents itself.


Then of course you have to count all the other stuff in. Such as religious undertones. And the fact that Heather having a baby at that point would be the end of the world. (Which... may be an inside feminist joke, actually.)
 
 
 
 
 
 

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Silent Hill 3: Feminist Perspective

Post by Otherworld on Tue Nov 17, 2015 1:30 pm

This is a great thread. Reading this over really puts the games symbolism in perspective. I completely agree with the meaning of the coat hanger and I wanted to post this here as well.

BoLM Quote:

The moon door

The message on the door that reads "piling up the 300th day and night" followed by "cries of pain are heard" is a metaphor for the sequence of events from conception to childbirth. It suggests the harsh fate that awaits Heather, who has become pregnant with God.
Image
 
 
 
 
 

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Silent Hill 3: Feminist Perspective

Post by smoke on Wed Dec 23, 2015 5:06 am

OP link doesn't work. Anyway I don't think we should worry about whether Silent Hill is feminist or not since developers could never make feminists happy no matter what they do. Better to just ignore em and not give em the attention they want. Anyway I would say Heather is actually anti feminist because if she were a feminist instead of fighting the monsters she would find a computer and complain on the internet about how oppressive they are. :lol:

Hey I just thought of something funny. Every Silent Hill game and the old Resident Evil games had a message when you turned it on letting you know the game had disturbing and violent images. They had trigger warnings! lol
 
 
 
 
 
 

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Silent Hill 3: Feminist Perspective

Post by Xuchilbara on Thu Dec 24, 2015 2:19 am

smoke wrote:OP link doesn't work. Anyway I don't think we should worry about whether Silent Hill is feminist or not since developers could never make feminists happy no matter what they do. Better to just ignore em and not give em the attention they want. Anyway I would say Heather is actually anti feminist because if she were a feminist instead of fighting the monsters she would find a computer and complain on the internet about how oppressive they are. :lol:

Hey I just thought of something funny. Every Silent Hill game and the old Resident Evil games had a message when you turned it on letting you know the game had disturbing and violent images. They had trigger warnings! lol

This is my bad. I updated my url and never put it here. The post is actually not negative.
http://chaoticbleu.tumblr.com/post/5823 ... ng-game-in.
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Silent Hill 3: Feminist Perspective

Post by smoke on Sat Jan 02, 2016 7:39 pm

Ah, sorry. At first I thought it was an article from some feminist complaining that the game is sexist or something. Anyway I still stand by what I said. It doesn't matter if Silent Hill 3 is feminist or not. We don't need to defend our games to them and the truth is there are plenty of strong female characters out there if they actually bothered to look. Instead they assume games like Call of Duty and Gears of War represent all video games.
 
 
 
 
 
 

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Silent Hill 3: Feminist Perspective

Post by Xuchilbara on Sat Jan 02, 2016 8:47 pm

I was not defending the game. Just expressing my opinion and pointing out how these things are overlooked. I think everything is unintentional on the part of the devs.
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Silent Hill 3: Feminist Perspective

Post by firecrest on Sun Feb 14, 2016 2:19 am

I didn't realize that the link was updated, so was able to read it only now. The article is surprisingly well thought-out and to the point. Makes a lot of sense when you also consider that Heather's potential "knights in shining armor" are either dead or severely crippled.
 
 
 
 
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