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James and the otherworld's construction

Post by PinentidHead on Wed Apr 27, 2016 10:02 am

What leads a person or a entire society to commit murder? I think mankind has been thinking about this since we taken this world with our civilizations. The fifth commandment of "Ten Commandments" prohibits murder. The christian version I knew says "must not kill". It is not not to kill if... it is just not to kill. But even so clear, the commandment can be relativized and, at the end, it is not followed at all.

So James love his wife and must protect her until the death... maybe. After months living in a hell with she in borderline of sanity and with ambiguous confusing thoughts, he starts to build a new logic construction of life. Inside this otherworld everything seams to make sense, seams real.

This make me think about what happens today. So a guy lives in Paris, France (the Elysium of the world), than he go to Syria to fight in a war and finally come back to Paris to kill maybe his own parents! Is he in an otherworld? The same can be said to entire societies that has strong reliable arguments to spent a fortune to cross the world and put an entire city in the ground with everybody inside. A MMORPGs otherworld!

Will be hard to win this game. Just zero tolerance commandments never worked. I think we need to better understand the word's mechanics, our constructed universe. Also, probably the developers was not thinking about it when building SH2 universe, consciously...
 
 
 
 
 
 

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Post by Otherworld on Fri Oct 07, 2016 6:39 pm

This just leads me back to a point I have made before about perception and point of view.

Someone's "Otherworld" in a sense of building a different perception of the world because of their plight can change their reality.

Just ask someone with PTSD.
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Post by Xuchilbara on Fri Oct 07, 2016 8:44 pm

James didn't experience the otherworld until he went to Silent Hill, the last time.
WHY NOT ZOIDBERG? (V)(;,,,;)(V)
 
 
 
 
 

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Post by Otherworld on Fri Oct 07, 2016 9:55 pm

Xuchilbara wrote:James didn't experience the otherworld until he went to Silent Hill, the last time.


Agreed.

I wasn't clear. My remark about the otherworld had to do with PinentidHead's example where a man goes to war and comes home a different person. As I believe in his example, it had nothing to do with the otherworld of Silent Hill. Just a different perception of reality.

That's why I put the "Otherworld" in quotes.

I hope that makes sense.
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James and the otherworld's construction

Post by Xuchilbara on Fri Oct 07, 2016 11:46 pm

Otherworld wrote:
Xuchilbara wrote:James didn't experience the otherworld until he went to Silent Hill, the last time.


Agreed.

I wasn't clear. My remark about the otherworld had to do with PinentidHead's example where a man goes to war and comes home a different person. As I believe in his example, it had nothing to do with the otherworld of Silent Hill. Just a different perception of reality.

That's why I put the "Otherworld" in quotes.

I hope that makes sense.


If we compare such to that, then one would think this "war" would be Mary's debilitating illness in which happiness died for them.
WHY NOT ZOIDBERG? (V)(;,,,;)(V)
 
 
 
 
 

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James and the otherworld's construction

Post by PinentidHead on Sun Oct 09, 2016 11:37 pm

Otherworld wrote:
Xuchilbara wrote:James didn't experience the otherworld until he went to Silent Hill, the last time.


Agreed.

I wasn't clear. My remark about the otherworld had to do with PinentidHead's example where a man goes to war and comes home a different person. As I believe in his example, it had nothing to do with the otherworld of Silent Hill. Just a different perception of reality.

That's why I put the "Otherworld" in quotes.

I hope that makes sense.


The problem is reality is a construction of the mind, not a perception. So, yes, the man will experience the otherworld as he go to the war, that can be at home already. But before that, he starts to define the basic rules, twisting the existing ones that suppose to make a pacific happy society for all of us. These people got so different rules that they can't even talk to us anymore - there is no dialog because the paradigms means parallel speeches. Maybe they are in the otherworld and we are monsters trough their eyes.

However, observing a war like Syrian - Iraqi war, I think societies make easy for this people to go to otherworld. Plus, nations are spending billions of dollars there but the peace seems more far away every day. Maybe more like Dante's definition of Hell!
 
 
 
 
 
 

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Post by Otherworld on Tue Oct 11, 2016 12:04 pm

PinentidHead wrote:
Otherworld wrote:
Xuchilbara wrote:James didn't experience the otherworld until he went to Silent Hill, the last time.


Agreed.

I wasn't clear. My remark about the otherworld had to do with PinentidHead's example where a man goes to war and comes home a different person. As I believe in his example, it had nothing to do with the otherworld of Silent Hill. Just a different perception of reality.

That's why I put the "Otherworld" in quotes.

I hope that makes sense.


The problem is reality is a construction of the mind, not a perception. So, yes, the man will experience the otherworld as he go to the war, that can be at home already. But before that, he starts to define the basic rules, twisting the existing ones that suppose to make a pacific happy society for all of us. These people got so different rules that they can't even talk to us anymore - there is no dialog because the paradigms means parallel speeches. Maybe they are in the otherworld and we are monsters trough their eyes.

However, observing a war like Syrian - Iraqi war, I think societies make easy for this people to go to otherworld. Plus, nations are spending billions of dollars there but the peace seems more far away every day. Maybe more like Dante's definition of Hell!


Reality is both the construction in the mind via our senses of things that actually exist in the real world as well as our own individual perception and/or our own individual reality. Perception is defined as "a way of regarding, understanding, or interpreting something; a mental impression" It is the neurophysiological processes, including memory, by which an organism becomes aware of and interprets external stimuli.

Our interpretation of things will change with real life experiences.

So your reality shifts and changes dependant upon your perception.
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Post by PinentidHead on Tue Oct 11, 2016 10:59 pm

^Good contribution! By this approach, there is some reality in perception. In fact, some perceptions as visual pass trough a so complex process that is not reliable as touch because is "too real" (the famous your eyes can blame you)!

The cosmos is only chaotic material that make no sense by itself - live beings add meaning. So a cup is just another perturbation in space, but we know we can pick it and fill of coffee because the idea is in mind: the real world. That's the basics, than we start to construct a social organization based on rules, ethics, moral, all concepts that got no direct perception in the cosmos, but is real as well. It's easy to the mind to build a consistent reality to drink coffee, but not to have a healthy relationship with society - the James problem! So his world is inconsistent but we will take all the game time to fix it, after many many indirect interactions.

I see the Islamic State as an otherworld, and will not be easy to fix it because got a lot of projections from our own inconsistent societies... how do we suppose to fight it?
 
 
 
 
 
 

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Post by Otherworld on Tue Oct 18, 2016 10:40 am

I believe that is a fight that no one can win. But that does not mean that it should not be fought .....
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Post by PinentidHead on Tue Nov 08, 2016 2:53 pm

^ You mean, can't win but should not admit the lost, so why to fight for? Just to keep fighting?
 
 
 
 
 
 

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Post by Otherworld on Tue Nov 08, 2016 4:12 pm

PinentidHead wrote:^ You mean, can't win but should not admit the lost, so why to fight for? Just to keep fighting?


You cannot let groups like ISIS think they can do whatever they want whenever they want.
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Post by PinentidHead on Wed Nov 09, 2016 10:32 pm

^ You know, I am becoming skeptical about this kind of sentence. Actually, they can. They might lost this battle but they will be back, probably worst than ever... again! It has been like this since the end of WW2. The reasons are complex and deep, and I am now more convinced that a big issue is they are not from this world, so they will not follow our logic.

The name keep changing but the basics is always the same: a distorted version of a religion. Is different from fundamentalism (you know, like Israel), it's a charming call for this otherworld where, for some reason, people feel better than our world, and they are ready to pay high price, as life. We see them as monsters! But we can't defeat them in a battle, history has proved. Besides, are YOU ready to die for the mission of extinction of ISIS and all of it kind? Are you ready to sacrifice your son?

We barely understand those phenomena, we need to go deep on this an maybe the next generation can terminate it.

Of course, until there, we will fight with wooden plank, do our job. But it's better not heaving illusions of a glorious war where the evil will be defeated for good, I doubt will be that simple.
 
 
 
 
 
 

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Post by Otherworld on Thu Nov 10, 2016 9:53 am

^ There are a ton of grey areas as to who is evil is a battle such as this.... Kinda of like James' journey ....

Nobody wants to send their son to die to fight this war. At the same time, how many sons and daughter of the helpless or innocent will die if there is no one to oppose such groups ...
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Post by Obsidiot on Tue Dec 20, 2016 6:51 am

PinentidHead wrote:What leads a person or a entire society to commit murder? I think mankind has been thinking about this since we taken this world with our civilizations. The fifth commandment of "Ten Commandments" prohibits murder. The christian version I knew says "must not kill". It is not not to kill if... it is just not to kill. But even so clear, the commandment can be relativized and, at the end, it is not followed at all.

So James love his wife and must protect her until the death... maybe. After months living in a hell with she in borderline of sanity and with ambiguous confusing thoughts, he starts to build a new logic construction of life. Inside this otherworld everything seams to make sense, seams real.

This make me think about what happens today. So a guy lives in Paris, France (the Elysium of the world), than he go to Syria to fight in a war and finally come back to Paris to kill maybe his own parents! Is he in an otherworld? The same can be said to entire societies that has strong reliable arguments to spent a fortune to cross the world and put an entire city in the ground with everybody inside. A MMORPGs otherworld!

Will be hard to win this game. Just zero tolerance commandments never worked. I think we need to better understand the word's mechanics, our constructed universe. Also, probably the developers was not thinking about it when building SH2 universe, consciously...


You put forth a very thought-provoking question, one that I like it a lot so I'll share my thoughts on it. The simplest answer I can contribute with is; Evolution by natural selection.

We're a social species, and social species depend on other members of their respective in-group for survival, so the act of malicious killing of another is not only detrimental to the victim, but to the entire group as well. And in that same scenario, it would be beneficial for the survival of the group to come together and dispose of the detrimental individual.

So it has a lot more to do with our evolutionary history as a social species than the establishment of complex societies. We implement laws in an attempt to deter unlawful behavior, yet crimes still occur every day in great numbers. In fact, with regards to conflict avoidance and preventing violence, we're not even the most successful species; Bonobo apes outclass us on that one.

As for your mention of the fifth of the Ten Commandments;

It does not prohibit the killing of others, it is the belief that it does that is the revised version. In fact, if it was as clear cut as the modern reinterpretation, then it would be in direct conflict with the obligations on what to do with those who did not worship the god of the Israelites, and/or those who were in violation of the Mosaic Laws. Two examples for you;

Deuteronomy 20:17 "Completely destroy them—the Hittites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites—as the Lord your God has commanded you."

Exodus 31: 15 "For six days work is to be done, but the seventh day is a day of sabbath rest, holy to the Lord. Whoever does any work on the Sabbath day is to be put to death."

As societies evolve, so does morality; By today's standards, would it be considered a moral act to slaughter an entire people, including infants, because they worshiped the 'wrong' god? Or because someone was out gathering firewood on the Sabbath day? Hell no! But that's because we're looking at it from the moral principles of today. Like Otherworld mentioned early on in the thread; Perception and point of view.

As for James and Silent Hill. To me he comes off as a ridiculously unreliable narrator, and it makes me question every single part of his narrative. So my first of MANY questions would be:

Did James' journey to Silent Hill in the game actually happen? If yes, what evidence do we have in support of this?
 
 
 
 
 
 

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Post by Otherworld on Tue Dec 20, 2016 9:56 am

Obsidiot wrote:Did James' journey to Silent Hill in the game actually happen? If yes, what evidence do we have in support of this?


Probably the best evidence is from his father.

Pulled from the Silent Hill Wiki:

In some moments in the game, the player can find letters mentioning a character named Rachel, including a bloody nurse uniform with her name on it. In Silent Hill 2, Rachel was the name of Mary Shepherd-Sunderland's nurse. Frank Sunderland may have had some connection to her because of the letters in his apartment. Frank mistakenly thought that Mike was Rachel's boyfriend.
The person that resembles the woman from the photo with Frank Sunderland in room 301 can be seen in room 106. This is possibly Rachel.
If the player examines the picture above Henry's couch at one point in the game, Henry states that Frank's son and daughter-in-law disappeared in Silent Hill ("I got this photo from Sunderland, the superintendent. I heard his son and daughter-in-law disappeared in Silent Hill a few years back..."). This alludes to James and the story of Silent Hill 2.
Frank is the one of the few characters in the game that is not involved in the 21 Sacraments directly.
Frank, like his son, has some questionable actions, such as keeping an umbilical cord from a stranger in his room for 34 years. Likewise, his son is willing to grab a wallet inside a filthy toilet and not wash his hands.
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Post by Obsidiot on Tue Dec 20, 2016 12:31 pm

Otherworld wrote:
Obsidiot wrote:Did James' journey to Silent Hill in the game actually happen? If yes, what evidence do we have in support of this?


Probably the best evidence is from his father.

Pulled from the Silent Hill Wiki:

In some moments in the game, the player can find letters mentioning a character named Rachel, including a bloody nurse uniform with her name on it. In Silent Hill 2, Rachel was the name of Mary Shepherd-Sunderland's nurse. Frank Sunderland may have had some connection to her because of the letters in his apartment. Frank mistakenly thought that Mike was Rachel's boyfriend.
The person that resembles the woman from the photo with Frank Sunderland in room 301 can be seen in room 106. This is possibly Rachel.
If the player examines the picture above Henry's couch at one point in the game, Henry states that Frank's son and daughter-in-law disappeared in Silent Hill ("I got this photo from Sunderland, the superintendent. I heard his son and daughter-in-law disappeared in Silent Hill a few years back..."). This alludes to James and the story of Silent Hill 2.
Frank is the one of the few characters in the game that is not involved in the 21 Sacraments directly.
Frank, like his son, has some questionable actions, such as keeping an umbilical cord from a stranger in his room for 34 years. Likewise, his son is willing to grab a wallet inside a filthy toilet and not wash his hands.



Let's start with Rachel;

The name that appears in SH4 game files and on the nurse's uniform isn't 'Rachel', it's 'Rachael'. The author and the poster of these memos have take the liberty of changing the name into Rachel, on the assumption that 'Rachael' is a typo. Which it may very well be, but then again, maybe not?

Then there's Mary's letter to James, the one that gradually disappears as you progress through the end-stage of the game. In the 'In Water' and 'Leave' ending, Mary hands over the letter herself and then croaks without no pillow-assistance from James. Then said letter is narrated by Mary, and one line reads: "I told the nurse to give this to you after I'm gone.". Which letter would that be? The one she just handed over, or the one that is in your inventory from the start that gradually disappears? And in the Maria ending, it is Maria who hands the letter over. So apparently, everyone gets to give James a letter, except for the nurse who the letter clearly states James would receive the letter from.

Then there's Laura's letter, that Laura tells James she swiped from Rachel's locker prompting James to ask her who Rachel is. So not only does James not know who Laura is, he doesn't know who Rachel is either. Two people he would've encountered several times during Mary's hospitalization.

When James gets to read Laura's letter and has another one of his epic logic fails, Laura suddenly 'remembers' that Mary wrote her yet another letter;

Laura: "Me and Mary talked a lot about Silent Hill. She even showed me all her pictures. She really wanted to come back. That's why I'm here. Maybe you'll get it if you see the other letter... The one Mary... huh... I must have dropped it!"

I gotta be honest here, I don't think anyone James encounters in the game are real, including Laura. This is the second time she uses the 'I have a letter but I left it somewhere else!' excuse. And let's not forget that this exchange takes place at Lakeview Hotel, which had been completely destroyed in a fire before the game begins. I wouldn't expect a turnip like James to notice, but Laura? Absolutely! If she was real, that is..

So in the end we have no good evidence that corroborates James' journey in SH2, what we do have is the quote by Henry from that Wiki article you posted, supporting the proposition that Mary and James went there once, and never returned: "I got this photo from Sunderland, the superintendent. I heard his son and daughter-in-law disappeared in Silent Hill a few years back..."
 
 
 
 
 
 

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Post by Otherworld on Tue Dec 20, 2016 1:33 pm

Obsidiot wrote:
Otherworld wrote:
Obsidiot wrote:Did James' journey to Silent Hill in the game actually happen? If yes, what evidence do we have in support of this?


Probably the best evidence is from his father.

Pulled from the Silent Hill Wiki:

In some moments in the game, the player can find letters mentioning a character named Rachel, including a bloody nurse uniform with her name on it. In Silent Hill 2, Rachel was the name of Mary Shepherd-Sunderland's nurse. Frank Sunderland may have had some connection to her because of the letters in his apartment. Frank mistakenly thought that Mike was Rachel's boyfriend.
The person that resembles the woman from the photo with Frank Sunderland in room 301 can be seen in room 106. This is possibly Rachel.
If the player examines the picture above Henry's couch at one point in the game, Henry states that Frank's son and daughter-in-law disappeared in Silent Hill ("I got this photo from Sunderland, the superintendent. I heard his son and daughter-in-law disappeared in Silent Hill a few years back..."). This alludes to James and the story of Silent Hill 2.
Frank is the one of the few characters in the game that is not involved in the 21 Sacraments directly.
Frank, like his son, has some questionable actions, such as keeping an umbilical cord from a stranger in his room for 34 years. Likewise, his son is willing to grab a wallet inside a filthy toilet and not wash his hands.



Let's start with Rachel;

The name that appears in SH4 game files and on the nurse's uniform isn't 'Rachel', it's 'Rachael'. The author and the poster of these memos have take the liberty of changing the name into Rachel, on the assumption that 'Rachael' is a typo. Which it may very well be, but then again, maybe not?

Then there's Mary's letter to James, the one that gradually disappears as you progress through the end-stage of the game. In the 'In Water' and 'Leave' ending, Mary hands over the letter herself and then croaks without no pillow-assistance from James. Then said letter is narrated by Mary, and one line reads: "I told the nurse to give this to you after I'm gone.". Which letter would that be? The one she just handed over, or the one that is in your inventory from the start that gradually disappears? And in the Maria ending, it is Maria who hands the letter over. So apparently, everyone gets to give James a letter, except for the nurse who the letter clearly states James would receive the letter from.

Then there's Laura's letter, that Laura tells James she swiped from Rachel's locker prompting James to ask her who Rachel is. So not only does James not know who Laura is, he doesn't know who Rachel is either. Two people he would've encountered several times during Mary's hospitalization.

When James gets to read Laura's letter and has another one of his epic logic fails, Laura suddenly 'remembers' that Mary wrote her yet another letter;

Laura: "Me and Mary talked a lot about Silent Hill. She even showed me all her pictures. She really wanted to come back. That's why I'm here. Maybe you'll get it if you see the other letter... The one Mary... huh... I must have dropped it!"

I gotta be honest here, I don't think anyone James encounters in the game are real, including Laura. This is the second time she uses the 'I have a letter but I left it somewhere else!' excuse. And let's not forget that this exchange takes place at Lakeview Hotel, which had been completely destroyed in a fire before the game begins. I wouldn't expect a turnip like James to notice, but Laura? Absolutely! If she was real, that is..

So in the end we have no good evidence that corroborates James' journey in SH2, what we do have is the quote by Henry from that Wiki article you posted, supporting the proposition that Mary and James went there once, and never returned: "I got this photo from Sunderland, the superintendent. I heard his son and daughter-in-law disappeared in Silent Hill a few years back..."


I understand your point of view, but the fact remains that the Book of Lost Memories specifically mentions who is real and who is not in the character commentary of Silent Hill 2.

http://www.silenthillmemories.net/lost_memories/guide/046-047_en.htm

BoLM quote:

М а r i a
Name: Maria
Age: 25
Sex: F
Job: Dancer
Profile: A woman who bears an uncanny resemblance to Mary, although her personality and taste in clothing are completely opposite. For some reason, she tags along with James.

creator's comment
In the original scenario, the heroine also had an existence characterized by a double personality. The first personality is "Mary," so for the other, the name "Maria" is derived from that.

R a i s o n d ' e t r e

Maria was produced by James' delusions as a result of his inability to bear the weight of the crime of killing his wife. It is established in the third game that her model was a dancer at the club Heaven's Night.


It is specifically mentioned above that Maria is produced by James' delusions. No other character is described in such a way.

L a u r а
Name: Laura
Age: 8
Sex: F
Job: --
Profile: A young girl who was a patient in the same hospital as Mary. Having no mother of her own, Laura loved Mary as if she were her real mother.

creator's comment
Her name is taken from the nonfiction work No Language But a Cry by Richard D'Ambrosio, the story of a young girl's search for happiness while struggling to overcome the scars of abuse

R a i s o n d ' e t r e

Of all the characters, she is the only one who does not hold any darknessin her heart. It may be that she came to Silent Hill looking for Mary. To her the town appears to be normal; she does not see any monsters, nor does she see Maria..
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Post by Obsidiot on Tue Dec 20, 2016 2:22 pm

Otherworld wrote:
Obsidiot wrote:
Otherworld wrote:
Obsidiot wrote:Did James' journey to Silent Hill in the game actually happen? If yes, what evidence do we have in support of this?


Probably the best evidence is from his father.

Pulled from the Silent Hill Wiki:

In some moments in the game, the player can find letters mentioning a character named Rachel, including a bloody nurse uniform with her name on it. In Silent Hill 2, Rachel was the name of Mary Shepherd-Sunderland's nurse. Frank Sunderland may have had some connection to her because of the letters in his apartment. Frank mistakenly thought that Mike was Rachel's boyfriend.
The person that resembles the woman from the photo with Frank Sunderland in room 301 can be seen in room 106. This is possibly Rachel.
If the player examines the picture above Henry's couch at one point in the game, Henry states that Frank's son and daughter-in-law disappeared in Silent Hill ("I got this photo from Sunderland, the superintendent. I heard his son and daughter-in-law disappeared in Silent Hill a few years back..."). This alludes to James and the story of Silent Hill 2.
Frank is the one of the few characters in the game that is not involved in the 21 Sacraments directly.
Frank, like his son, has some questionable actions, such as keeping an umbilical cord from a stranger in his room for 34 years. Likewise, his son is willing to grab a wallet inside a filthy toilet and not wash his hands.



Let's start with Rachel;

The name that appears in SH4 game files and on the nurse's uniform isn't 'Rachel', it's 'Rachael'. The author and the poster of these memos have take the liberty of changing the name into Rachel, on the assumption that 'Rachael' is a typo. Which it may very well be, but then again, maybe not?

Then there's Mary's letter to James, the one that gradually disappears as you progress through the end-stage of the game. In the 'In Water' and 'Leave' ending, Mary hands over the letter herself and then croaks without no pillow-assistance from James. Then said letter is narrated by Mary, and one line reads: "I told the nurse to give this to you after I'm gone.". Which letter would that be? The one she just handed over, or the one that is in your inventory from the start that gradually disappears? And in the Maria ending, it is Maria who hands the letter over. So apparently, everyone gets to give James a letter, except for the nurse who the letter clearly states James would receive the letter from.

Then there's Laura's letter, that Laura tells James she swiped from Rachel's locker prompting James to ask her who Rachel is. So not only does James not know who Laura is, he doesn't know who Rachel is either. Two people he would've encountered several times during Mary's hospitalization.

When James gets to read Laura's letter and has another one of his epic logic fails, Laura suddenly 'remembers' that Mary wrote her yet another letter;

Laura: "Me and Mary talked a lot about Silent Hill. She even showed me all her pictures. She really wanted to come back. That's why I'm here. Maybe you'll get it if you see the other letter... The one Mary... huh... I must have dropped it!"

I gotta be honest here, I don't think anyone James encounters in the game are real, including Laura. This is the second time she uses the 'I have a letter but I left it somewhere else!' excuse. And let's not forget that this exchange takes place at Lakeview Hotel, which had been completely destroyed in a fire before the game begins. I wouldn't expect a turnip like James to notice, but Laura? Absolutely! If she was real, that is..

So in the end we have no good evidence that corroborates James' journey in SH2, what we do have is the quote by Henry from that Wiki article you posted, supporting the proposition that Mary and James went there once, and never returned: "I got this photo from Sunderland, the superintendent. I heard his son and daughter-in-law disappeared in Silent Hill a few years back..."


I understand your point of view, but the fact remains that the Book of Lost Memories specifically mentions who is real and who is not in the character commentary of Silent Hill 2.

http://www.silenthillmemories.net/lost_memories/guide/046-047_en.htm

BoLM quote:

М а r i a
Name: Maria
Age: 25
Sex: F
Job: Dancer
Profile: A woman who bears an uncanny resemblance to Mary, although her personality and taste in clothing are completely opposite. For some reason, she tags along with James.

creator's comment
In the original scenario, the heroine also had an existence characterized by a double personality. The first personality is "Mary," so for the other, the name "Maria" is derived from that.

R a i s o n d ' e t r e

Maria was produced by James' delusions as a result of his inability to bear the weight of the crime of killing his wife. It is established in the third game that her model was a dancer at the club Heaven's Night.


It is specifically mentioned above that Maria is produced by James' delusions. No other character is described in such a way.

L a u r а
Name: Laura
Age: 8
Sex: F
Job: --
Profile: A young girl who was a patient in the same hospital as Mary. Having no mother of her own, Laura loved Mary as if she were her real mother.

creator's comment
Her name is taken from the nonfiction work No Language But a Cry by Richard D'Ambrosio, the story of a young girl's search for happiness while struggling to overcome the scars of abuse

R a i s o n d ' e t r e

Of all the characters, she is the only one who does not hold any darknessin her heart. It may be that she came to Silent Hill looking for Mary. To her the town appears to be normal; she does not see any monsters, nor does she see Maria..


I've gone through BOLM several times, and I am aware of the information provided in regards to the different characters, but things don't add up for me still, which I will gladly admit could very well be a me-problem! :D

But there are several things that are off about it, blatant inaccuracies even! I'll start with that one seeing as I've been DYING to talk about it for a while now. :P

This first one is from the character commentary for the first game, by the way..

Harry: "When development first began on this project, because of his role as the doting, dutiful father he was given the name "Humbert Mason,[...]"

:S

Uuuuuh.. no.. nononono.. Humbert Humbert is NOT a doting and dutiful father, he is a manipulative sexual predator who targets a 13 year old girl. How can you even consider proposing that comparison, unless you're trolling hardcore?!

Cheryl: "Originally we wanted to call her Dolores for the same reasons as Harry's character, but this met with fierce opposition and was rejected."
Yeah, sure. Make it worse. What's next? Memos written in fancy prose style? No wonder that this caused an uproar. They had already gone way too far with the Humbert Humbert suggestion.

James:

"The letter James received from Mary was an illusion.[...] However, he was unable to withstand the weight of his crime, and, immersed in his own delusions, one can think that he was drawn to the town of Silent Hill."

There was no letter. That's why it started disappearing towards the end, until it ceased to exist. So the whole thing about her asking her nurse to deliver it didn't actually happen, did it? Nor did the sequences in the "In Water" and "Leave" endings either. It was due to this letter that he ended up in Silent Hill, so in the absense of said letter, why is he even there? The final bit leaves that one very much open as well..

Mary:
Profile: "James' wife, who supposedly died of an illness three years ago."

R a i s o n d ' e t r e: "Mary says various things in each ending to James, who has become aware of the crime he has committed. It is conceivable that her death three years ago is merely James' delusion. "

If it has become so apparent to him what his crime was, why is it not reflected in any of the endings?

Maria:
"Maria was produced by James' delusions[...] It is established in the third game that her model was a dancer at the club Heaven's Night."

Who is this dancer that is mentioned? What does that statement even mean?

For both Angela and Eddie, there's the same final statement: "[...]and one can think that he was called to Silent Hill."

One can think? So it's not a definite answer then?
 
 
 
 
 
 

Otherworld

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I'm going to town either way ...

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Joined: Oct 11, 2013

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James and the otherworld's construction

Post by Otherworld on Tue Dec 20, 2016 4:53 pm

Obsidiot wrote:James:

"The letter James received from Mary was an illusion.[...] However, he was unable to withstand the weight of his crime, and, immersed in his own delusions, one can think that he was drawn to the town of Silent Hill."

There was no letter. That's why it started disappearing towards the end, until it ceased to exist. So the whole thing about her asking her nurse to deliver it didn't actually happen, did it? Nor did the sequences in the "In Water" and "Leave" endings either. It was due to this letter that he ended up in Silent Hill, so in the absense of said letter, why is he even there? The final bit leaves that one very much open as well..


I will only be touching upon the Silent Hill 2 references here. The letter James has at the beginning of the game was sent to him (he believes) by Mary. That is why he says " a dead person cant write a letter'.

BoLM quote:

Letter
At the start of the game, James is in possession of "Mary's letter." As he awakens to the crime he has committed, the contents of the letter disappear. What this signifies is that the letter itself was James' delusion.




James: I got a letter.
The name on the envelope said 'Mary.'
My wife's name...
It's ridiculous, couldn't possibly be true...
That's what I keep telling myself...
A dead person can't write a letter.
Mary died of that damn disease three years ago.
So then why am I looking for her'
Our 'special place'...
What could she mean'
This whole town was our special place.
Does she mean the park on the lake'
We spent the whole day there.
Just the two of us, staring at the water.
Could Mary really be there'
Is she really alive... waiting for me'


Once we see James looking in the mirror at the start of the game he is already deep in his own delusions as he has been called to town.


Obsidiot wrote:Mary:
Profile: "James' wife, who supposedly died of an illness three years ago."

R a i s o n d ' e t r e: "Mary says various things in each ending to James, who has become aware of the crime he has committed. It is conceivable that her death three years ago is merely James' delusion. "

If it has become so apparent to him what his crime was, why is it not reflected in any of the endings?


James admits his crime to Laura after watching the video tape. It is only apparent to him then.

Image

He says as much in each ending I believe, except for Rebirth.

Leave: James: That's why I did it, honey. I just couldn't watch you suffer.
No! That's not true... You also said that you didn't want to die.
The truth is I hated you. I wanted you out of the way. I wanted my
life back....

Mary: James... if that were true, then why do you look so sad'


In Water: James: No, that's not the whole truth. You also said that you didn't want
to die. The truth is... part of me hated you. For taking away my
life...

Mary: You killed me and you're suffering for it. It's enough, James.

'Maria' Ending: James: Yes, I wanted to see you. Even an illusion of you.... That's why I
came here.

Mary: That's not true, is it? You killed me...

James: I couldn't watch you suffer.

Mary: Don't make excuses, James. I know I was a burden on you. You must
have hated me. That's why you got rid of me.

James: It's true... I may have had some of those feelings. It was a long
three years... I was... tired.

Mary: And that's why you needed this 'Maria' person'


What needs to be realised here is that during James' journey, he is really finding out what type of person he truly is. We know Mary had just died a couple of days ago. Laura clears that up for James. Another reason why Laura is a real person, to open James eyes to the truth.

The endings only reflect the truth James unravels about himself during his metaphysical journey through Silent Hill.

Is he a cold blooded killer?
Image
The main reason he meets Eddie


Is he a disturbed victim?
Image
The main reason he meets Angela


Remember they are all called together at the same time.

Obsidiot wrote:Maria:
"Maria was produced by James' delusions[...] It is established in the third game that her model was a dancer at the club Heaven's Night."

Who is this dancer that is mentioned? What does that statement even mean?


Below is the Lady Maria poster found in Silent Hill 3 in Heavens Night.

Image

Obsidiot wrote:For both Angela and Eddie, there's the same final statement: "[...]and one can think that he was called to Silent Hill."

One can think? So it's not a definite answer then?


There are no definite answers, we must remember

BoLM quote:

The complex story of the second game attracts attention with its shocking conclusion and various possible interpretations. If one plays with a deeper understanding of the elaborately integrated scenarios and the backgrounds of the characters that appear in the game, one should be able to gain a deeper appreciation for the story.


^This is what the developers wanted, us to discuss this exactly like we are doing right now.

But the BoLM is pointing out why both were called...

BoLM quote:

Calling
Those who have guilt are summoned
Due to the appearance of the otherworld on a massive scale in the first game, the town has come to be a place that calls those who hold a profound darkness in their hearts. It seems that people with afflicted minds are easily drawn to the otherworld. The town calls to those who bear the weight of some crime and shows them what is in their hearts.
Image
 
 
 
 
 

Obsidiot

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Posts: 12

Joined: Dec 19, 2016

James and the otherworld's construction

Post by Obsidiot on Tue Dec 20, 2016 9:13 pm

Otherworld wrote:
Obsidiot wrote:James:

"The letter James received from Mary was an illusion.[...] However, he was unable to withstand the weight of his crime, and, immersed in his own delusions, one can think that he was drawn to the town of Silent Hill."

There was no letter. That's why it started disappearing towards the end, until it ceased to exist. So the whole thing about her asking her nurse to deliver it didn't actually happen, did it? Nor did the sequences in the "In Water" and "Leave" endings either. It was due to this letter that he ended up in Silent Hill, so in the absense of said letter, why is he even there? The final bit leaves that one very much open as well..


I will only be touching upon the Silent Hill 2 references here. The letter James has at the beginning of the game was sent to him (he believes) by Mary. That is why he says " a dead person cant write a letter'.

BoLM quote:

Letter
At the start of the game, James is in possession of "Mary's letter." As he awakens to the crime he has committed, the contents of the letter disappear. What this signifies is that the letter itself was James' delusion.




James: I got a letter.
The name on the envelope said 'Mary.'
My wife's name...
It's ridiculous, couldn't possibly be true...
That's what I keep telling myself...
A dead person can't write a letter.
Mary died of that damn disease three years ago.
So then why am I looking for her'
Our 'special place'...
What could she mean'
This whole town was our special place.
Does she mean the park on the lake'
We spent the whole day there.
Just the two of us, staring at the water.
Could Mary really be there'
Is she really alive... waiting for me'


Once we see James looking in the mirror at the start of the game he is already deep in his own delusions as he has been called to town.


Obsidiot wrote:Mary:
Profile: "James' wife, who supposedly died of an illness three years ago."

R a i s o n d ' e t r e: "Mary says various things in each ending to James, who has become aware of the crime he has committed. It is conceivable that her death three years ago is merely James' delusion. "

If it has become so apparent to him what his crime was, why is it not reflected in any of the endings?


James admits his crime to Laura after watching the video tape. It is only apparent to him then.

Image

He says as much in each ending I believe, except for Rebirth.

Leave: James: That's why I did it, honey. I just couldn't watch you suffer.
No! That's not true... You also said that you didn't want to die.
The truth is I hated you. I wanted you out of the way. I wanted my
life back....

Mary: James... if that were true, then why do you look so sad'


In Water: James: No, that's not the whole truth. You also said that you didn't want
to die. The truth is... part of me hated you. For taking away my
life...

Mary: You killed me and you're suffering for it. It's enough, James.

'Maria' Ending: James: Yes, I wanted to see you. Even an illusion of you.... That's why I
came here.

Mary: That's not true, is it? You killed me...

James: I couldn't watch you suffer.

Mary: Don't make excuses, James. I know I was a burden on you. You must
have hated me. That's why you got rid of me.

James: It's true... I may have had some of those feelings. It was a long
three years... I was... tired.

Mary: And that's why you needed this 'Maria' person'


What needs to be realised here is that during James' journey, he is really finding out what type of person he truly is. We know Mary had just died a couple of days ago. Laura clears that up for James. Another reason why Laura is a real person, to open James eyes to the truth.

I know that it was brought up in the conversations that happen during the endings, I was more referring to some actual pillow-over-face action, which doesn't happen. Mary just kicketh the bucketh. So why doesn't the act itself go down during the ending cutscenes? Having Mary die 'naturally' just changes everything, like him making it to the finish line has somehow made him deserving of having it cleared off his record, so to speak. At least go full-circle, James! :D
If his journey is to learn and accept the truth about what he did, then what's up with the alternate endings? He knows the truth in all of them, and if that was what he was called to Silent Hill to accomplish, then it doesn't make much sense to me that he can still potentially fail.

As for Laura opening James' eyes to the truth; how is that evidence of her being real? Maria also assists James in that same way, in fact, she is the one encouraging James to go after Laura. And if truth is such an important part of James' journey, how about telling Laura that he killed Eddie? James has now killed two of Laura's friends, I really think she should be informed of that.

Otherworld wrote: The endings only reflect the truth he unravels about himself during his metaphysical journey through Silent Hill.
Is he a cold blooded killer?
Image


Eddie? No. James? Yes.


Otherworld wrote:
Is he a disturbed victim?
Image


No. He is the one that torments the victim. Definitely not a victim himself.

Otherworld wrote:
Remember they are all called together at the same time.


That's making the assumption that they are were called. They could just have easily have manifested the same way Maria did. But suppose they were indeed called at the same time, why? So James could trample them in the process of using them as his own personal stepping stones? Since when did Silent Hill become co-op?

Otherworld wrote:
There are no definite answers, we must remember

BoLM quote:

The complex story of the second game attracts attention with its shocking conclusion and various possible interpretations. If one plays with a deeper understanding of the elaborately integrated scenarios and the backgrounds of the characters that appear in the game, one should be able to gain a deeper appreciation for the story.


^This is what the developers wanted, us to discuss this exactly like we are doing right now.


And I love every minute of it! :D

Thanks for the picture of Maria, by the way. Whatever happened to her? I mean, when James bumped her out of there to make room for the manifestation of Maria?

Otherworld wrote:But the BoLM is pointing out why both were called...
BoLM quote:

Calling
Those who have guilt are summoned
Due to the appearance of the otherworld on a massive scale in the first game, the town has come to be a place that calls those who hold a profound darkness in their hearts. It seems that people with afflicted minds are easily drawn to the otherworld. The town calls to those who bear the weight of some crime and shows them what is in their hearts.
[/quote]

What exactly does 'afflicted minds' and 'profound darkness in their hearts' referring to here? I don't see why Angela is there at all; She is the victim of systematic sexual abuse, and killing her own father was an act of pure self-defense. And Laura is described as without darkness, yet she is a little bully! Is it because she gets to play the 'I'm a child!' free-card? And who are exempt from these rules? Heather, for example, is called there for an entirely different reason;

"Heather, who is Alessa's reincarnation, is finally drawn to the town of Silent Hill when her body has matured enough for her to take on the role of the mother."

I don't know.. It just seems to me that there's no system to it, or purpose; you get sucked in, and either you manage to claw yourself back out, or you're doomed. And all because of self-righteous cult leaders deciding to do shit they shouldn't do, then end up pissing in the cereal of the old gods.

Oh and... If truth is so very important for James to complete his journey, he should really own up to being instrumental to the death of both Eddie and Angela.
 
 
 
 
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