Otherworld

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James and the otherworld's construction

Post by Otherworld on Wed Dec 21, 2016 4:47 pm

Obsidiot wrote:I know that it was brought up in the conversations that happen during the endings, I was more referring to some actual pillow-over-face action, which doesn't happen. Mary just kicketh the bucketh. So why doesn't the act itself go down during the ending cutscenes? Having Mary die 'naturally' just changes everything, like him making it to the finish line has somehow made him deserving of having it cleared off his record, so to speak. At least go full-circle, James! :D
If his journey is to learn and accept the truth about what he did, then what's up with the alternate endings? He knows the truth in all of them, and if that was what he was called to Silent Hill to accomplish, then it doesn't make much sense to me that he can still potentially fail.


James' journey is about the type of person he is. James' actions throughout his journey tells him more about himself. It's not about what he did. He was called so we know he sinned. It's about why he did it. The different iterations at the end of the game paint quite a different picture of who he is and what his motivations were when we killed Mary.

Obsidiot wrote:As for Laura opening James' eyes to the truth; how is that evidence of her being real? Maria also assists James in that same way, in fact, she is the one encouraging James to go after Laura. And if truth is such an important part of James' journey, how about telling Laura that he killed Eddie? James has now killed two of Laura's friends, I really think she should be informed of that.


James killed Eddie in self-defence and maybe that's not something you want to tell an 8 year old ....

James thinks Mary died 3 years ago, that is not the case, Laura letting James know that his timelines are wack helps James realise the truth. His search is not for Mary, it's for himself.

Plus the BoLM specifically mentions that Laura ( a real person ) is unable to see Maria ( James delusion )

BoLM quote:

Laura: To her the town appears to be normal; she does not see any monsters, nor does she see Maria.


Obsidiot wrote:
Otherworld wrote: The endings only reflect the truth he unravels about himself during his metaphysical journey through Silent Hill.
Is he a cold blooded killer?
Image


Eddie? No. James? Yes.


The only reason Eddie does not actually kill another person is because James has to defend himself. Eddie tries to kill James and he thinks he has killed countless others during his journey.

Obsidiot wrote:
Otherworld wrote:
Is he a disturbed victim?
Image


No. He is the one that torments the victim. Definitely not a victim himself.


James endured 3 years of abuse at the hands of Mary. He has been victimized as well.

Obsidiot wrote:
Otherworld wrote:
Remember they are all called together at the same time.


That's making the assumption that they are were called. They could just have easily have manifested the same way Maria did. But suppose they were indeed called at the same time, why? So James could trample them in the process of using them as his own personal stepping stones? Since when did Silent Hill become co-op?


They are called, they are in Silent Hill at the same time. So we can say that they are all called at the same time. Eddie and Angelas' fate is sealed after their calling as there is no grey area in what they have done (or will do) Silent Hills history ensures that it punishes sinners. James has sinned as well. But James has way more "grey area" in what he has done. The Town ensures he follows a metaphysical path so James ( and the Town ) find out what type of person he is. That's how it works in self contained stories like SH2 and DP.

Obsidiot wrote:
Otherworld wrote:
There are no definite answers, we must remember

BoLM quote:

The complex story of the second game attracts attention with its shocking conclusion and various possible interpretations. If one plays with a deeper understanding of the elaborately integrated scenarios and the backgrounds of the characters that appear in the game, one should be able to gain a deeper appreciation for the story.


^This is what the developers wanted, us to discuss this exactly like we are doing right now.


And I love every minute of it! :D


Yes ..... so do I !!! :D

Obsidiot wrote:Thanks for the picture of Maria, by the way. Whatever happened to her? I mean, when James bumped her out of there to make room for the manifestation of Maria?


No idea what happened to her. Who knows why she was used by James and the Town......

Obsidiot wrote:
Otherworld wrote:But the BoLM is pointing out why both were called...
BoLM quote:

Calling
Those who have guilt are summoned
Due to the appearance of the otherworld on a massive scale in the first game, the town has come to be a place that calls those who hold a profound darkness in their hearts. It seems that people with afflicted minds are easily drawn to the otherworld. The town calls to those who bear the weight of some crime and shows them what is in their hearts.


What exactly does 'afflicted minds' and 'profound darkness in their hearts' referring to here? I don't see why Angela is there at all; She is the victim of systematic sexual abuse, and killing her own father was an act of pure self-defense. And Laura is described as without darkness, yet she is a little bully! Is it because she gets to play the 'I'm a child!' free-card? And who are exempt from these rules? Heather, for example, is called there for an entirely different reason;


Darkness refers to sin. No matter what Angela went through, in Silent Hill what she did is still a sin. Afflicted minds refers to pain, suffering or trouble "affliction" of the mind. Mental turmoil maybe the best way to describe it. Laura has no darkness but she is in the otherworld. She is an innocent.

Heather cannot be looked at in the same light. Heather sees what she sees because of Claudia and her power. She is not called to town like the characters from Silent Hill 2.

See this thread of mine if you would like further explanation. http://www.silenthillcommunity.com/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=437183

Obsidiot wrote:"Heather, who is Alessa's reincarnation, is finally drawn to the town of Silent Hill when her body has matured enough for her to take on the role of the mother."

I don't know.. It just seems to me that there's no system to it, or purpose; you get sucked in, and either you manage to claw yourself back out, or you're doomed. And all because of self-righteous cult leaders deciding to do shit they shouldn't do, then end up pissing in the cereal of the old gods.

Oh and... If truth is so very important for James to complete his journey, he should really own up to being instrumental to the death of both Eddie and Angela.


Heather is drawn to Silent Hill because of Claudia as she has matured enough to be able "give birth"

James kills Eddie in self defense and Angela kills herself.
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Obsidiot

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James and the otherworld's construction

Post by Obsidiot on Thu Dec 22, 2016 12:30 am

First off, thanks for taking your time getting into this with me, I know I can get exhausting at times and you're definitely giving me some additional clarity on things. :)

Otherworld wrote:James killed Eddie in self-defence and maybe that's not something you want to tell an 8 year old ....


Why not? He told her that he had killed Mary, so why not talk about Eddie?

As for self-defense; James deliberately triggered Eddie into attacking him, he wanted him to attack! So in order to refer to that as self-defense, one has a lot of special pleading to do.

Otherworld wrote:James thinks Mary died 3 years ago, that is not the case, Laura letting James know that his timelines are wack helps James realise the truth. His search is not for Mary, it's for himself.


I'm aware that James is searching for himself(without knowing it), I wonder though.. Is it really only about truth? Correct me if I'm wrong about this, but from what I understand, there are four endings that qualify in terms of being canonical, and in every single one of them he knows the truth, but something else is getting in the way;

'Rebirth' - He knows the truth but refuses to accept it.
'In Water' - He knows the truth, accepts it but is unable to cope with it.
'Maria' - ...Umm, James? What the actual fuck?
'Leave' - He knows the truth, accepts it and assuming Laura is real, is able to cope.

Funny enough, the 'Leave' ending is the one I have the hardest time making a case for due to that thing Henry says in SH4.

Otherworld wrote:Plus the BoLM specifically mentions that Laura ( a real person ) is unable to see Maria ( James delusion )


Is it at all possible that they might be bluffing in order to deliberately mislead? Not for malicious reasons, but for the sake of obscuring things even further? I mean, the scrapped name ideas for Harry and Cheryl were way out there and beyond, so I'm hoping they were joking around.

Otherworld wrote:James endured 3 years of abuse at the hands of Mary. He has been victimized as well.


Am I missing something? How did Mary abuse him?

Otherworld wrote:They are called, they are in Silent Hill at the same time. So we can say that they are all called at the same time. Eddie and Angelas' fate is sealed after their calling as there is no grey area in what they have done (or will do) Silent Hills history ensures that it punishes sinners. James has sinned as well. But James has way more "grey area" in what he has done. The Town ensures he follows a metaphysical path so James ( and the Town ) find out what type of person he is. That's how it works in self contained stories like SH2 and DP.


I'd argue that Angela and Eddie's fates were sealed when James shoehorned himself into their business, making them out to be something they were not. In my opinion, if I had to pick an 'unforgivable sinner', it would be James all the way; Remember the metal plaques?

Gluttonous Pig - Eddie likes pizza, so what?

The Seductress - How beyond repair damaged in the head would you have to be to label a sexual abuse victim a seductress?

Otherworld wrote:Darkness refers to sin. No matter what Angela went through, in Silent Hill what she did is still a sin.


Am I missing something crucial here? Angela hasn't sinned! How has she sinned?
 
 
 
 
 
 

Otherworld

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James and the otherworld's construction

Post by Otherworld on Thu Dec 22, 2016 10:03 am

Obsidiot wrote:First off, thanks for taking your time getting into this with me, I know I can get exhausting at times and you're definitely giving me some additional clarity on things. :)


I always enjoy a Silent Hill discussion. It is my pleasure.

Obsidiot wrote:
Otherworld wrote:James killed Eddie in self-defence and maybe that's not something you want to tell an 8 year old ....


Why not? He told her that he had killed Mary, so why not talk about Eddie?


Laura is in town looking for Mary. And again, James explains what he has done to Mary to Laura because it's the truth, and at the same time he is finally realising the truth for himself in that moment. The only reason Laura is there is to find Mary. Since she is able to move around as easily as she can, would it be fair not to tell her and have her continue her search? No it wouldn't.

Obsidiot wrote:As for self-defense; James deliberately triggered Eddie into attacking him, he wanted him to attack! So in order to refer to that as self-defense, one has a lot of special pleading to do.


As seen countless times, James is a little slow, and a little bizarre. James not realising that Eddie would pop off is just James being James. Plus, what James said is no excuse for Eddie to try and kill him .... unless that's exactly what Eddie wanted to do.

Obsidiot wrote:
Otherworld wrote:James thinks Mary died 3 years ago, that is not the case, Laura letting James know that his timelines are wack helps James realise the truth. His search is not for Mary, it's for himself.


I'm aware that James is searching for himself(without knowing it), I wonder though.. Is it really only about truth? Correct me if I'm wrong about this, but from what I understand, there are four endings that qualify in terms of being canonical, and in every single one of them he knows the truth, but something else is getting in the way;

'Rebirth' - He knows the truth but refuses to accept it.
'In Water' - He knows the truth, accepts it but is unable to cope with it.
'Maria' - ...Umm, James? What the actual fuck?
'Leave' - He knows the truth, accepts it and assuming Laura is real, is able to cope.

Funny enough, the 'Leave' ending is the one I have the hardest time making a case for due to that thing Henry says in SH4.


Refresh my memory about what Henry says about leave please.

In the Maria and Rebirth ending James slips deeper into his own delusion. Choosing Maria seems to doom James into living with a Mary like doppelganger that he will have to nurse while sick again and again and watch die only to respawn again and again. Over and over.

Rebirth has James so deep into his delusion that he thinks bringing Mary back from the dead will somehow be better than the Mary alternative that has already been offered.... I am pretty sure that won't work out for James as well.

The endings show what type of person James really is.

Obsidiot wrote:
Otherworld wrote:Plus the BoLM specifically mentions that Laura ( a real person ) is unable to see Maria ( James delusion )


Is it at all possible that they might be bluffing in order to deliberately mislead? Not for malicious reasons, but for the sake of obscuring things even further? I mean, the scrapped name ideas for Harry and Cheryl were way out there and beyond, so I'm hoping they were joking around.


Possible .... yes ..... Probable ... I really do not think so. I really don't think they would have sunk as much as they did into this story/game for it all to be a ruse.

Obsidiot wrote:
Otherworld wrote:James endured 3 years of abuse at the hands of Mary. He has been victimized as well.


Am I missing something? How did Mary abuse him?


When James visits Mary in the hospital all she does is lash out at him. James went through three years of that. When you listen to the full conversation when James walks down this hallway \/ you get a better idea of things.

Image

Obsidiot wrote:
Otherworld wrote:They are called, they are in Silent Hill at the same time. So we can say that they are all called at the same time. Eddie and Angelas' fate is sealed after their calling as there is no grey area in what they have done (or will do) Silent Hills history ensures that it punishes sinners. James has sinned as well. But James has way more "grey area" in what he has done. The Town ensures he follows a metaphysical path so James ( and the Town ) find out what type of person he is. That's how it works in self contained stories like SH2 and DP.


I'd argue that Angela and Eddie's fates were sealed when James shoehorned himself into their business, making them out to be something they were not. In my opinion, if I had to pick an 'unforgivable sinner', it would be James all the way; Remember the metal plaques?

Gluttonous Pig - Eddie likes pizza, so what?

The Seductress - How beyond repair damaged in the head would you have to be to label a sexual abuse victim a seductress?


I understand the argument, but...

BoLM quote:

The town calls to those who bear the weight of some crime and shows them what is in their hearts.


The town already knows who you are when you are called. And as seen above, it makes sure it shows you who you are. Angela and Eddies' journeys are set once called.

BoLM quote:

Originally Silent Hill was a holy place to the area's former inhabitants. It would seem that although the power of the town was not evil in nature, due to a number of factors including the spread of an epidemic and executions at the prison, the power that this place held was greatly distorted. Furthermore, due to the large-scale shift to the otherworld that occurred in the first game, the town has become a great catalyst for the manifestation of peoples' unconscious minds. It appears to have become a place that beckons to those who hold darkness in their hearts.


After the events of the 1st game, mixed with the cults rituals as far as punishing sinners, the town has a malevolent nature about it.

Obsidiot wrote:
Otherworld wrote:Darkness refers to sin. No matter what Angela went through, in Silent Hill what she did is still a sin.


Am I missing something crucial here? Angela hasn't sinned! How has she sinned?


Angela committed murder. Silent Hill has a hard and fast view on such things. I sympathise with her too, but Silent Hill does not .....
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Obsidiot

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James and the otherworld's construction

Post by Obsidiot on Thu Dec 22, 2016 10:10 pm

Otherworld wrote:Angela committed murder. Silent Hill has a hard and fast view on such things. I sympathise with her too, but Silent Hill does not .....


Angela did not commit murder, she committed an act of self-defense. It is also extremely likely that in doing so, she also prevented her father from preying on others as well. She has committed no sin, the only thing she did 'wrong' was to not stab the fucker to death sooner!

The body of a man later
identified as Thomas Orosco (Lumberjack,
age 39) was discovered in the
middle of his room lying face up.

The probable cause of death was
multiple stab wounds to the front
of the neck and the left side of
the torso by a sharp-edged
weapon. The estimated time of
death was somewhere between
11:00 p.m. and 12:30 midnight.

Due to signs of struggle in the
room and the lack of a murder
weapon, police are considering
this a homicide and have
opened a murder investigation.

Furthermore, given the fact that
the cash in the room was
untouched and Mr. Orosco had
a history of drunkenness and
violence, the police suspect that
the motive was not robbery
but some sort of crime of passion.


She didn't even take anything with her! And see that last part there? Even the police declares her innocence! So if she was called to Silent Hill, it was for some other reason. If Silent Hill is a benign place, then she was called there for her own benefit, which James subsequently sabotaged through condemning her to death for a 'crime' she never even committed to begin with, and by also involving himself in her business, pretending to be a Knight in shining Armour by slaying her demon. Cause if Angela was called to town on the same premise as James; to find herself, the truth and learn how to cope, then defeating Abstract Daddy was a huge step in that direction for her. A step no longer there because James yanked the carpet away from under her.

Eddie is also innocent; He didn't kill anyone! He never killed another human being! His problem is the same one as Angela's; James shoehorning himself into situations he has nothing to do with. And as for James not being aware that Eddie would fly off the handle? Oh he knew! You can tell by observing him; Just listen to his voice and how it changes completely from before, and that pause before he delivers the line.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7sg2AFh1KS0

And no, I am absolutely not defending Eddie's actions here; Murder is unjustifiable, plain and simple. What I'm saying is that James is not as dumb and clueless as you believe him to be, he is actually quite calculated and manipulative. And Eddie had no reason for wanting James dead! If he wanted to kill James, he wouldn't have needed to have a reason anyway. And look! Eddie was on his way out the door. Just a couple more seconds of shut the fuck up from James, Eddie would've been elsewhere.

The one that actually DID commit murder is James, and you are defending him? I am puzzled by this...
 
 
 
 
 
 

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James and the otherworld's construction

Post by Kurosawa on Fri Dec 23, 2016 8:32 am

^ It wasn't considered self-defense by the police report, neither did they say that the perpetrator was innocent. They said in the report that it is a crime of passion, that qualifies for murder. It is a different thing to consider the events before, like the abuse Angela had to go through. But when you look at it from a legal/neutral standpoint as the law supposedly does, Angela did commit murder. Like Otherworld said, Silent Hill does not symphatize at all that she had to go through all the things in her life. It makes her character very interesting since unlike James, she wasn't selfish in her acts and tried to get away from all the abuse in her life. Silent Hill sees Angela as a wrongdoer just like her father.

Eddie was probably seen in the same way. It is like every sin weighs equal regardless of what has actually been committed.
 
 
 
 
 
 

Otherworld

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James and the otherworld's construction

Post by Otherworld on Fri Dec 23, 2016 2:25 pm

Obsidiot wrote:
Otherworld wrote:Angela committed murder. Silent Hill has a hard and fast view on such things. I sympathise with her too, but Silent Hill does not .....


Angela did not commit murder, she committed an act of self-defense. It is also extremely likely that in doing so, she also prevented her father from preying on others as well. She has committed no sin, the only thing she did 'wrong' was to not stab the fucker to death sooner!


That is your view, and that view is shared by many others, including myself. But that is not the case in Silent Hill I'm afraid. Angela is called because she did in fact commit murder. In our view it may have been justified, but in Silent Hill it obviously was not.

Obsidiot wrote:She didn't even take anything with her! And see that last part there? Even the police declares her innocence! So if she was called to Silent Hill, it was for some other reason. If Silent Hill is a benign place, then she was called there for her own benefit, which James subsequently sabotaged through condemning her to death for a 'crime' she never even committed to begin with, and by also involving himself in her business, pretending to be a Knight in shining Armour by slaying her demon. Cause if Angela was called to town on the same premise as James; to find herself, the truth and learn how to cope, then defeating Abstract Daddy was a huge step in that direction for her. A step no longer there because James yanked the carpet away from under her.


Silent Hill is not benign in it's nature. It has a malevolence about it ever since the events during the 1st game.

BoLM quote:

Originally Silent Hill was a holy place to the area's former inhabitants. It would seem that although the power of the town was not evil in nature, due to a number of factors including the spread of an epidemic and executions at the prison, the power that this place held was greatly distorted. Furthermore, due to the large-scale shift to the otherworld that occurred in the first game, the town has become a great catalyst for the manifestation of peoples' unconscious minds. It appears to have become a place that beckons to those who hold darkness in their hearts.


James has no power in Silent Hill. He is not able to condemn anyone for anything. The power of the town is the reason Angela ends up being called and ultimately dies in the end. Angela tells James early on "You're the same as me" so she is already very aware of why she is there as she has been in town longer than James and even tries to warn him about it in the cemetery. As I am sure the town wanted James to find Angela exactly when he did when Abstract Daddy attacked her. That may just mean the town already knew Angela would not be able to fend for her self during the battle. I mean James is packing some decent fire power and has to use it accordingly to win the battle.

The best part is Angela already knows James is no " Knight in shining Armour"

Angela: So what do you want then? Oh I see, you're trying to be nice to me,
right? I know what you're up to. It's always the same. You're
only after one thing.

James: No, that's not true at all.

Angela: You don't have to lie. Go ahead and say it. Or you could just
force me. Beat me up like he always did.

*Angela begins to kneel on the ground.*

Angela: You only care about yourself anyway.

*Angela is crying and begins having dry heaves.*

Angela: You disgusting pig.

James: Angela...

*James puts his hand on Angela's shoulder.*

Angela: Don't touch me!! You make me sick!

*Angela stands up and gains her composure once again.*

Angela: You said your wife Mary was dead, right'

James: Yes, she was ill...

Angela: Liar! I know about you.... You didn't want her around anymore.
You probably found someone else.


^This exchange confirms that Angela knows a lot more about James than James knows about himself at this point.

Obsidiot wrote:Eddie is also innocent; He didn't kill anyone! He never killed another human being! His problem is the same one as Angela's; James shoehorning himself into situations he has nothing to do with. And as for James not being aware that Eddie would fly off the handle? Oh he knew! You can tell by observing him; Just listen to his voice and how it changes completely from before, and that pause before he delivers the line.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7sg2AFh1KS0

And no, I am absolutely not defending Eddie's actions here; Murder is unjustifiable, plain and simple. What I'm saying is that James is not as dumb and clueless as you believe him to be, he is actually quite calculated and manipulative. And Eddie had no reason for wanting James dead! If he wanted to kill James, he wouldn't have needed to have a reason anyway. And look! Eddie was on his way out the door. Just a couple more seconds of shut the fuck up from James, Eddie would've been elsewhere.

The one that actually DID commit murder is James, and you are defending him? I am puzzled by this...


What I would like to point out is the atmosphere and music that is playing at the beginning of the cut scene. It sounds rather menacing. I'd use that description to describe Eddies eyes during that scene as well.

James finds Eddie when he finds him during both of their journeys because the town wants it to happen that way. It is part of both characters metaphysical journeys. James met a normal guy in the apartments he thought, and watched (unknowingly to James) him become a killer as Eddie admits multiple times he believes he has killed another person.

Eddie fires the 1st shot, so who is defending themselves ..... ??? James has no other choice but to return fire. Eddie has no reason to shoot James except the fact that, that is exactly what Eddie wants to do. The town offered him chance after chance to kill and Eddie indulged himself time and time again. With James, Eddie just bit off more than he can chew.

Eddie is called because Silent Hill saw that his darkness was his intent. And showed it to him time and time again.

Kurosawa wrote:^ It wasn't considered self-defense by the police report, neither did they say that the perpetrator was innocent. They said in the report that it is a crime of passion, that qualifies for murder. It is a different thing to consider the events before, like the abuse Angela had to go through. But when you look at it from a legal/neutral standpoint as the law supposedly does, Angela did commit murder. Like Otherworld said, Silent Hill does not symphatize at all that she had to go through all the things in her life. It makes her character very interesting since unlike James, she wasn't selfish in her acts and tried to get away from all the abuse in her life. Silent Hill sees Angela as a wrongdoer just like her father.

Eddie was probably seen in the same way. It is like every sin weighs equal regardless of what has actually been committed.


Agreed, it makes Angelas' character the most interesting one in the game IMO. James spends so much more time with her, and their interactions seem so much more meaningful.

Oh, and btw, she is on the cover of the game.

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James and the otherworld's construction

Post by mikefile on Sat Dec 24, 2016 12:00 pm

I notice people arguing about whether the town is benign or malevolent. It's none because the power of the town is not sentient, the effects depend on the subject.

As to why Angela is called to Silent Hill, it has nothing to do with whether it was self defense or not. Angela comes to town because she's in a turbulent state of mind. To me, it didn't even seem like a matter of guilt or grief as in James' case. Angela's no.1 problem is that she was scarred for life and couldn't let go even if the threat was eliminated. The town doesn't willingly keep her there because she's guilty of her father's death nor in my opinion because she wants to punish herself due to a sense of guilt. She's in Silent Hill because she experienced a trauma. Her father's violence didn't end when she killed him.. it continued in her head, over and over. Also because, thanks to her mother, she simply thinks it was something she deserved.

And if you think about it, James didn't really rescue her from the monster. We can find it later in the hotel and the "rescue" doesn't really help Angela in the long term, either.
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James and the otherworld's construction

Post by Obsidiot on Sat Dec 24, 2016 10:32 pm

Kurosawa wrote:It wasn't considered self-defense by the police report, neither did they say that the perpetrator was innocent. They said in the report that it is a crime of passion, that qualifies for murder.


You're absolutely right! I stand corrected on this, and I did realize it shortly after I posted it; I was mistakenly interpreting it by that outdated legal argument referred to as 'crime of passion'(as with Madame Caillaux) that was accepted as a legitimate criminal defense, which would've absolved Angela of any wrongdoing.

In response to Otherworld;

I've gone through the game again and picked up on some details that I either didn't notice in previous playthroughs, or didn't think too much about, so I've had quite the shift in how I view the different characters, situations and Silent Hill as a while. I'm gonna have to take some time to think about how to formulate things, but there was one thing I wanted to put out there right away;

I believed Eddie might have killed that dog as an act of self-defense, but the way he talks about it makes it seem much more like he tortured the dog to death. If that is the case, then I have zero sympathy for him and relieved that James took him out in the end.
 
 
 
 
 
 

Otherworld

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James and the otherworld's construction

Post by Otherworld on Sun Dec 25, 2016 12:02 pm

mikefile wrote:I notice people arguing about whether the town is benign or malevolent. It's none because the power of the town is not sentient, the effects depend on the subject.


The Book of lost memories really points out that the towns power was heavily influenced by what had transpired there. And that it was not originally evil, but after certain happenings it has become greatly distorted. By using evil in its description, what it is saying is that it is evil now.

BoLM quote.

Originally Silent Hill was a holy place to the area's former inhabitants. It would seem that although the power of the town was not evil in nature, due to a number of factors including the spread of an epidemic and executions at the prison, the power that this place held was greatly distorted


mikefile wrote:As to why Angela is called to Silent Hill, it has nothing to do with whether it was self defense or not. Angela comes to town because she's in a turbulent state of mind. To me, it didn't even seem like a matter of guilt or grief as in James' case. Angela's no.1 problem is that she was scarred for life and couldn't let go even if the threat was eliminated. The town doesn't willingly keep her there because she's guilty of her father's death nor in my opinion because she wants to punish herself due to a sense of guilt. She's in Silent Hill because she experienced a trauma. Her father's violence didn't end when she killed him.. it continued in her head, over and over. Also because, thanks to her mother, she simply thinks it was something she deserved.

And if you think about it, James didn't really rescue her from the monster. We can find it later in the hotel and the "rescue" doesn't really help Angela in the long term, either.


No James is unable to rescue Angela. And yes part of the reason she has been called is because of her mental turmoil. But make no mistake, Angela is called because of the darkness in her heart.

BoLM quote

Calling
Those who have guilt are summoned
Due to the appearance of the otherworld on a massive scale in the first game, the town has come to be a place that calls those who hold a profound darkness in their hearts. It seems that people with afflicted minds are easily drawn to the otherworld.

The town calls to those who bear the weight of some crime and shows them what is in their hearts.


Obsidiot wrote: In response to Otherworld;

I've gone through the game again and picked up on some details that I either didn't notice in previous playthroughs, or didn't think too much about, so I've had quite the shift in how I view the different characters, situations and Silent Hill as a while. I'm gonna have to take some time to think about how to formulate things, but there was one thing I wanted to put out there right away;

I believed Eddie might have killed that dog as an act of self-defense, but the way he talks about it makes it seem much more like he tortured the dog to death. If that is the case, then I have zero sympathy for him and relieved that James took him out in the end.


I am just about to do another walkthrough myself. I think it's time.

I empathize with the fact that Eddie was picked on because of his weight. But it seems that Silent Hill showed Eddie who he really was, as given the opportunity Eddie chose to kill. And when he says to James "let's party!" before the final battle, Eddie seemed to fully embrace what he was going to ultimately become.
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mikefile

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James and the otherworld's construction

Post by mikefile on Mon Dec 26, 2016 3:31 pm

Otherworld wrote:The Book of lost memories really points out that the towns power was heavily influenced by what had transpired there. And that it was not originally evil, but after certain happenings it has become greatly distorted. By using evil in its description, what it is saying is that it is evil now.

BoLM quote.
Originally Silent Hill was a holy place to the area's former inhabitants. It would seem that although the power of the town was not evil in nature, due to a number of factors including the spread of an epidemic and executions at the prison, the power that this place held was greatly distorted

I think there are a few ways to interpret this..

We know that before the war tragedies and Alessa's influence, the power of the town wasn't the same as the one we know from the series. Before, it was merely the Place of the Silenced Spirits. The power manifested itself in a more discrete fashion in contrast with the activity that we know from the series. But the specifics about how it exactly differed from the traditional Otherworld are a bit obscure. Whether there were only visions, or whether it just lacked the feature that enables the town to "call" its subjects that are physically outside the given range, or if it just lacked the ability to recycle/merge manifestations belonging to different individuals, we don't really know. The point is that the pre-Alessa activity was a rough version of the new Otherworld.

But after the epidemic and the war, as the Book of Lost Memories states, the power started to distort itself. And it is after the Alessa story that the town's power upgraded with some extra features, like the ability to actively call and draw those who hold darkness in their hearts. Essentially, it became a magnet. But that does not mean it became evil or at least not in the typical sense of the word. It became more powerful, it grew stronger. And of course, if people with a great deal of darkness in their hearts were called, the new, stronger power of the town would create a much more intense and twisted Otherworld that might be perceived as more evil.. more aggressive.

I believe that the quote was trying to refer to these two temporally separated versions of the Otherworld. But I personally think it's a bad choice of words.

Otherworld wrote:No James is unable to rescue Angela. And yes part of the reason she has been called is because of her mental turmoil. But make no mistake, Angela is called because of the darkness in her heart.

BoLM quote
Calling
Those who have guilt are summoned
Due to the appearance of the otherworld on a massive scale in the first game, the town has come to be a place that calls those who hold a profound darkness in their hearts. It seems that people with afflicted minds are easily drawn to the otherworld.

The town calls to those who bear the weight of some crime and shows them what is in their hearts.


So, it is important to bare in mind that 'darkness' in the broad sense doesn't strictly have to be something evil. It doesn't necessarily have to be hatred, pain or guilt. It could simply be loneliness, like in Laura's case. The whole matter is once again linked to the question of the town's sentience. The town is not capable of specifically picking those who did "bad" things and willingly punish them. The town responds to psychological imbalance, a mental turmoil. And whether that turmoil is hatred, guilt, desire for revenge or simply loneliness or longing, the town will resonate to it.
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Otherworld

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James and the otherworld's construction

Post by Otherworld on Wed Dec 28, 2016 10:52 am

mikefile wrote:
Otherworld wrote:The Book of lost memories really points out that the towns power was heavily influenced by what had transpired there. And that it was not originally evil, but after certain happenings it has become greatly distorted. By using evil in its description, what it is saying is that it is evil now.

BoLM quote.
Originally Silent Hill was a holy place to the area's former inhabitants. It would seem that although the power of the town was not evil in nature, due to a number of factors including the spread of an epidemic and executions at the prison, the power that this place held was greatly distorted

I think there are a few ways to interpret this..

We know that before the war tragedies and Alessa's influence, the power of the town wasn't the same as the one we know from the series. Before, it was merely the Place of the Silenced Spirits. The power manifested itself in a more discrete fashion in contrast with the activity that we know from the series. But the specifics about how it exactly differed from the traditional Otherworld are a bit obscure. Whether there were only visions, or whether it just lacked the feature that enables the town to "call" its subjects that are physically outside the given range, or if it just lacked the ability to recycle/merge manifestations belonging to different individuals, we don't really know. The point is that the pre-Alessa activity was a rough version of the new Otherworld.

But after the epidemic and the war, as the Book of Lost Memories states, the power started to distort itself. And it is after the Alessa story that the town's power upgraded with some extra features, like the ability to actively call and draw those who hold darkness in their hearts. Essentially, it became a magnet. But that does not mean it became evil or at least not in the typical sense of the word. It became more powerful, it grew stronger. And of course, if people with a great deal of darkness in their hearts were called, the new, stronger power of the town would create a much more intense and twisted Otherworld that might be perceived as more evil.. more aggressive.

I believe that the quote was trying to refer to these two temporally separated versions of the Otherworld. But I personally think it's a bad choice of words.


You really have to take what has been given to you in the BoLM.

BoLM quote:

Furthermore, due to the large-scale shift to the otherworld that occurred in the first game, the town has become a great catalyst for the manifestation of peoples' unconscious minds. It appears to have become a place that beckons to those who hold darkness in their hearts.


After the to profound amount of suffering Alessa went through the towns power has become twisted/distorted (Term for twisting, distorting, souring, tends to look for evil intent) and it has become a place that summons those who have sinned because of the history the town/cult has with punishing sinners.

Image

A place that calls to those with guilt for the sole purpose of punishment has a certain demeanour to it wouldn't you say?

This is why the town has a certain malevolence about it.

mikefile wrote:
Otherworld wrote:No James is unable to rescue Angela. And yes part of the reason she has been called is because of her mental turmoil. But make no mistake, Angela is called because of the darkness in her heart.

BoLM quote
Calling
Those who have guilt are summoned
Due to the appearance of the otherworld on a massive scale in the first game, the town has come to be a place that calls those who hold a profound darkness in their hearts. It seems that people with afflicted minds are easily drawn to the otherworld.

The town calls to those who bear the weight of some crime and shows them what is in their hearts.


So, it is important to bare in mind that 'darkness' in the broad sense doesn't strictly have to be something evil. It doesn't necessarily have to be hatred, pain or guilt. It could simply be loneliness, like in Laura's case. The whole matter is once again linked to the question of the town's sentience. The town is not capable of specifically picking those who did "bad" things and willingly punish them. The town responds to psychological imbalance, a mental turmoil. And whether that turmoil is hatred, guilt, desire for revenge or simply loneliness or longing, the town will resonate to it.


Laura is a good example, as Laura ends up in the otherwrold because of her afflicted mind, that affliction being loneliness as you pointed out.

afflicted: (of a problem or illness) cause pain or suffering to; affect or trouble.


BoLM quote:

It seems that people with afflicted minds are easily drawn to the otherworld.


But Laura does not encounter anything remotely dangerous and tells James there is no reason for her to be injured as there is nothing in her otherworld that can injure her. So she is drawn to the otherworld but is never called.

It seems like Lauras' mental turmoil (affliction) makes it very easy for her to be drawn to the otherworld.

And that is the difference. Laura is never called, she ends up in the otherworld because of her afflicted mind, not because of any darkness.
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PinentidHead

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James and the otherworld's construction

Post by PinentidHead on Thu Dec 29, 2016 12:30 pm

It seams to me that Laura is a myth of purity. As long she is afflicted by adult problems, she got no dark inside and no monsters can be created to harm she. It's a lack of source material for monsters! I doubt a kid that walks alone in the world, after all that happened, will be so pure. Unfortunately, kids can behave like adults if pushed to, with the mature dark side included. So I think Laura is kinda outside the canon.

Other way of explain Laura is that her mind is blocking evil with fantasies, might avoid creation of monsters, but this didn't work with Angela, so I still think the developers went to make a "immune character" that IMO did not work perfectly in a deep analysis.
 
 
 
 
 
 

Spiritis

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James and the otherworld's construction

Post by Spiritis on Thu Feb 02, 2017 12:04 pm

PinentidHead wrote:What leads a person or a entire society to commit murder? I think mankind has been thinking about this since we taken this world with our civilizations. The fifth commandment of "Ten Commandments" prohibits murder. The christian version I knew says "must not kill". It is not not to kill if... it is just not to kill. But even so clear, the commandment can be relativized and, at the end, it is not followed at all.

So James love his wife and must protect her until the death... maybe. After months living in a hell with she in borderline of sanity and with ambiguous confusing thoughts, he starts to build a new logic construction of life. Inside this otherworld everything seams to make sense, seams real.

This make me think about what happens today. So a guy lives in Paris, France (the Elysium of the world), than he go to Syria to fight in a war and finally come back to Paris to kill maybe his own parents! Is he in an otherworld? The same can be said to entire societies that has strong reliable arguments to spent a fortune to cross the world and put an entire city in the ground with everybody inside. A MMORPGs otherworld!

Will be hard to win this game. Just zero tolerance commandments never worked. I think we need to better understand the word's mechanics, our constructed universe. Also, probably the developers was not thinking about it when building SH2 universe, consciously...


Read the basic instructions befor leaving earth and you'll see whos behind it, or keep asking unanswerable questions otherwise.

God writes to those who pay attention, he expects you to read the bible, not just the commandments, this Is why youre told to study the bible, and never take gods word out of context.

god expects you to have read, god did not write to simple folk, he wrote to true followers whod actually read the entire book. when he said that murder in self defense is allowed, murder on accident,wont be put guilty, then you'd tie that in with the commandments, read the book of Solomon, David and goliath, when David had to fight goliath so the isrealites would become his slaves, David knocked goliath out, but goliath was still breathing, David didn't have a sword so he ran up and took goliath, then chopped his head off. Self defense, just like when the bible says you may kill a thiefwho enters your home at night, but not during the day, for in the day the thief will most likely run, because he can be seen, if he does not run, then it turns intob self defense, and you have the right to defend yourself and your property. God says all of this

If you don't follow the law of god, you are not a walker with god, period. Humanity has already shown it doesn't care about gods law anymore, cause now that we have technology were perfect, and we need nobody, little grey people are the truth, not god? Lets not forget we only developed this naive mindset when the Roswell crash happened, and our technology took off, before then, for thousands of years people knew there were demons and they knew how to protect against them, now the devil just laughs, as the bible says, he's fooled the whole world, father of lies and accuser of the bretheren.

James was griefed by the burden of his wife, and coincidently i just posted what if James was possessed? As we know james claims to not remember anything until the video at the end.

It could be possible but like you said, i doubt the devs went that direction, or maybe they did. Angels and demons are different, its easier to getba demon to walk with you on life or multiple, rather than an angel of god, the true god. Demons are like fairly odd parents, they come to those who are hurt, and in need, and they offer this temp pleasure or solution to this problens, which in the end, only end up giving you more problems. Angels have to be delivered t order for god to deliver you an angel, you have to cry out for it, god will not waste time on those who never cared about him, when bad things happened in my life i cried out, and a week later all my problems were solved and I started a new life In a new state, going strong still, still praying.

God calls humans sheep, he compares us to sheep, all of us, not just his followers, but what is a sheep?

Only one of the dumbest animals god ever made, he calls us sheep because we wander off and follow whatever pleases our hearts, but the problen is, we dont know what pleases our hearts so we get lost in the process, just like a sheep who strays from it's pen. This is why it says I walk through the valley of the shadow of death and fear no evil, for thy ROD and thy STAFF are with me. Rod and staff, both tools for sheeps, valkey of death is the earth, god doesnt run earth fully atm, devil has mpre control atm, but god is still here, thats why the world hasnt gone completely to shit. Rod used to beating sheep, or even breaking their legs cause they so dumb they won't stop running to a random true and starting a it. And the stag being the big stick used to reel the sheep back in.

so, As I walk through this earth, i fear no evil, for thy ROD will punish me If i stray, and thy staff will pull me back to the father, and guide me.

Sorry, my point was, many peoppe are walking with either demons, or themselves, because people will always want the easy way out, so when the devil, or some other falls shephard comes, we follow him, because they offer something easier and more pleasing to us, than. Our creator, and that will be our downfall. James would've been possessed if that wrre the case, he was weak and desperate at that time, but so was Mary.
 
 
 
 
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