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Mary's Disease

Post by Otherworld on Mon Mar 28, 2016 9:04 am

There are a plethora of diseases that we have very little to no knowledge about.

Paraneoplastic pemphigus

Look this one up.^ It seems to fit the bill.

The point is we really do not need to know what the disease is as we have all the important information. Which does not include the rape of one the most important characters in the game.
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Post by Panko1 on Tue Mar 29, 2016 7:13 am

After every disease I've heard, Paraneoplastic pemphigus is the one most related with Mary's in almost everyway except for one thing, it has a mortality rate of near 90%. And Mary's doctor told James she would sooner or later die, stating a time period of 6 months to 3 years for her to live. Meaning she had a rate of 0% survival.

Since we have all the information and still can't tell what it is. Maybe because there's no possible scientific diagnosis for that mysterious disease. It could only be a supernatural condition caused by the Otherworld. This explains why Mary felt ill right after her vacation on Silent Hill.
silenthill.wikia.com/wiki/Doctor's_Journal wrote:The Doctor's Journal is found in the document room on the first floor of Brookhaven Hospital in Silent Hill 2. The journal makes reference to the Otherworld from an outsider's perspective. For the doctor, the Otherworld is nothing more than an illness which has the potential to reside in all people.Image"The potential for this illness exists in all people and, under the right circumstances, any man or woman would be driven, like him, to the 'other side'."
silenthill.wikia.com/wiki/Rosewater_Memorial wrote:The Rosewater Memorial is found on the promenade in Rosewater Park, just after meeting Maria for the first time in Silent Hill 2. It is a memorial for sixty-seven people who died of a mysterious illness in Silent Hill's past.Image"In memory of the sixty seven who died of illness and now sleep beneath the lake."
Mary: Well I'm alone there now... In our "special place"... Waiting for you...
James: Our "special place"... What could she mean? Does she mean the park on the lake? We spent the whole day there. Just the two of us, starring at the water. Could Mary really be there? Is she really alive... waiting for me?

The In Water ending is when you understand exactly what Mary means, when James suicides in the lake with her corpse. Beneath the lake is where she was waiting for him, with those 67 people that died from that mysterious disease. I can't tell if those people had the same symptoms. But Mary felt like she was part of them and so did James. Because they were all infected by the same Otherworld. An illness with different symptoms depending on each one's heart but still the same end result.
 
 
 
 
 

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Mary's Disease

Post by Otherworld on Tue Mar 29, 2016 9:51 am

^ That theory assumes that In Water is canon when we know it is not.

And Mary would have to called to the Otherworld, otherwise this theory is not even possible, correct ?

And mortality rate of near 90% does not give Mary any chance of survival. 90% is pretty grim. Recently there are much better rates for Paraneoplastic pemphigus but it was much worse years ago.

Not to mention the doctors memo seems to reference an illness of the mind not the body.

Some say it isn't even an illness.
I cannot agree with them. I'm a
doctor, not a philosopher or even
a psychiatrist.

But sometimes I have to ask
myself this question. It's true
that to us his imaginings are
nothing but the inventions of
a busy mind. But to him, there
simply is no other reality.
Furthermore he is happy there.

So why, I ask myself, why in the
name of healing him must we drag
him painfully into the world of our
own reality?


Plus, I am reminded of a thread created by Purramid_Head seen here where it points out the fact that sin is looked at as an illness as well.
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Mary's Disease

Post by Panko1 on Wed Mar 30, 2016 8:43 am

My theory help to explain why "In Water" is a cannon ending. But if you say you "know it's not" you should explain "why it's not". If you think that Mary was never called to the Otherworld then explain where her letter came from? And when she told that she would be waiting for James in their "special place", where would that be? Isn't she the one who called him to join her in the first place? What was the "real reason" James came to Silent Hill. Was James looking for Mary to join her? If not, why did he went there? I believe James wanted to find Mary in their "special place". The way to find her is "In Water" ending. The water of the lake where they spent the whole day starring on their vacation, their "special place". This also explains why they both starred so much on that water, because they already dreamed about their fate. I know it's the saddest ending, but that's how the Otherworld is depending on the main character.

When people say that Mary was never in Otherworld is simply because her body was in the car. But the Otherworld is a state of spirit. But that doesn't mean is all purely mental. It's not always a literal dream. Because people can get physically hurt there, and Mary's illness could just be one of those things. This means that people can be physically affected by the Otherworld getting injured or even getting seek.

The reason why I think she was infected by the Otherworld is because she felt ill right after her vacation in Silent Hill. And she felt like a part of her stayed there when James had promised to take her there some day, and that's how the Otherworld affects, infects or calls people. So the doctor could not treat Mary's disease properly because there's was no possible diagnoses for that Otherword illness that was manifesting inside her.
REVEAL SPOILER: SH3
There was another time the Otherworld manifested in the body of a person, it happened with Heather in SH3, and with Claudia when she turned in a monster named "God". And Mary did look like a "monster" too but it would be a very different inner manifestation compared with Claudia.ImageImageImage
Otherworld wrote:Plus, I am reminded of a thread created by Purramid_Head seen here where it points out the fact that sin is looked at as an illness as well.
Many words can be used to describe how the Otherworld reflects darkness in people's hearts: Illness, sin, guilt, desire, shame, fear, regret. The Otherworld sometimes affect the body, the mind, or the place.
Otherworld wrote:And mortality rate of near 90% does not give Mary any chance of survival. 90% is pretty grim. Recently there are much better rates for Paraneoplastic pemphigus but it was much worse years ago.
Mary's doctor told James that she had a terminal illness that was incurable. It was imminent death, meaning she had not even 1% chance of survival. Paraneoplastic pemphigus has a mortality rate of nearly 90% meaning a 10% chance of survival, meaning it's not a terminal illness and it's not incurable like the one that Mary had. Paraneoplastic pemphigus still uses the same treatment from decades ago and it was never considered to be a terminal or incurable illness because the same drugs were already available and effective. Even if Mary was having the most severe case of Paraneoplastic pemphigus, she would have at least 1% chance of survival and the doctor would try to cure the disease at least.
 
 
 
 
 

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Post by Otherworld on Wed Mar 30, 2016 11:53 am

Panko1 wrote:My theory help to explain why "In Water" is a cannon ending. But if you say you "know it's not" you should explain "why it's not". If you think that Mary was never called to the Otherworld then explain where her letter came from? And when she told that she would be waiting for James in their "special place", where would that be? Isn't she the one who called him to join her in the first place? What was the "real reason" James came to Silent Hill. Was James looking for Mary to join her? If not, why did he went there? I believe James wanted to find Mary in their "special place". The way to find her is "In Water" ending. The water of the lake where they spent the whole day starring on their vacation, their "special place". This also explains why they both starred so much on that water, because they already dreamed about their fate. I know it's the saddest ending, but that's how the Otherworld is depending on the main character.


We know In Water is not canon because the creators said that there is no canon ending to SH2.

Yes James heads to Silent Hill to end his life, but the letter is not from Mary.
BoLM quote:
Letter
At the start of the game, James is in possession of "Mary's letter." As he awakens to the crime he has committed, the contents of the letter disappear. What this signifies is that the letter itself was James' delusion.


The final letter is another product of Silent Hill where Mary's thoughts are communicated.
BoLM quote:

Link
Transcending time, minds are connected
It would seem that in the otherworld, time and physical limitations are transcended and peoples' thoughts are communicated.


Now that James knows the truth he is able to to hear the complete letter, a manifestation of Mary's thoughts and emotions. I do believe that Laura is carrying the actual physical letter in the novel.

Panko1 wrote:When people say that Mary was never in Otherworld is simply because her body was in the car. But the Otherworld is a state of spirit. But that doesn't mean is all purely mental. It's not always a literal dream. Because people can get physically hurt there, and Mary's illness could just be one of those things. This means that people can be physically affected by the Otherworld getting injured or even getting seek.


This is a possibility, but not all the time. In SH2 the characters are called to the otherworld because of the darkness in their hearts. There is no other influence like in SH1, SH3, SH4, and HC. Mary would have to have darkness in her heart.

Panko1 wrote:The reason why I think she was infected by the Otherworld is because she felt ill right after her vacation in Silent Hill. And she felt like a part of her stayed there when James had promised to take her there some day, and that's how the Otherworld affects, infects or calls people. So the doctor could not treat Mary's disease properly because there's was no possible diagnoses for that Otherword illness that was manifesting inside her.
REVEAL SPOILER: SH3
There was another time the Otherworld manifested in the body of a person, it happened with Heather in SH3, and with Claudia when she turned in a monster named "God". And Mary did look like a "monster" too but it would be a very different inner manifestation compared with Claudia.ImageImageImage
Otherworld wrote:Plus, I am reminded of a thread created by Purramid_Head seen here where it points out the fact that sin is looked at as an illness as well.
Many words can be used to describe how the Otherworld reflects darkness in people's hearts: Illness, sin, guilt, desire, shame, fear, regret. The Otherworld sometimes affect the body, the mind, or the place.
Otherworld wrote:And mortality rate of near 90% does not give Mary any chance of survival. 90% is pretty grim. Recently there are much better rates for Paraneoplastic pemphigus but it was much worse years ago.
Mary's doctor told James that she had a terminal illness that was incurable. It was imminent death, meaning she had not even 1% chance of survival. Paraneoplastic pemphigus has a mortality rate of nearly 90% meaning a 10% chance of survival, meaning it's not a terminal illness and it's not incurable like the one that Mary had. Paraneoplastic pemphigus still uses the same treatment from decades ago and it was never considered to be a terminal or incurable illness because the same drugs were already available and effective. Even if Mary was having the most severe case of Paraneoplastic pemphigus, she would have at least 1% chance of survival and the doctor would try to cure the disease at least.


Comparing the disease Mary has to how Claudia and Heather look after they deal with the regurgitating and swallowing of "God" does not prove the theory.

I can see the comparison though.
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Mary's Disease

Post by Panko1 on Wed Mar 30, 2016 9:37 pm

Otherworld wrote:In SH2 the characters are called to the otherworld because of the darkness in their hearts. There is no other influence like in SH1, SH3, SH4, and HC. Mary would have to have darkness in her heart.
This is how I see. The Otherworld infected Mary in her body not in her mind because she had no darkness in her past to remember of like James did. But she was in love with James and his darkness in his heart infected her body. But Mary kept her love for him. Mary was ready to be infected by the Otherworld for him. And James was ready to die for her. They just wanted to be together. The cause of Mary's Otherworld illness is her love for James. Even after he treating her like a sexual object she would still love him. Mary and James were infected by the Otherworld, but I believe they "clean" themselves of this "illness" on "In Water" when they finally meet and disappear "beneath the lake" like those 67 people before them.
Otherworld wrote:Yes James heads to Silent Hill to end his life, but the letter is not from Mary.
The Otherworld also happens in delusions. And if Mary is in the Otherworld she could be responsible for some of James' delusions and that includes the delusion of a letter. This means that in the Otherworld (as James said) "a dead person can't wright a (real) letter". I think there was never a physical letter it was just Mary's thoughts being communicated.
Otherworld wrote:We know In Water is not canon because the creators said that there is no canon ending to SH2.
Maybe they said this because Konami wanted people in the west to enjoy happy "hollywood" endings. But people in Japan are different and they don't see the suicide "In Water" as a bad thing. That's why I believe the Japanese creators had the "In Water" as their favorite end in mind, before making the game, and had to readapt the game for multiple endings to please people in the west.Image
 
 
 
 
 

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Post by Borg on Thu Mar 31, 2016 2:52 am

Panko1 wrote:Maybe they said this because Konami wanted people in the west to enjoy happy "hollywood" endings. But people in Japan are different and they don't see the suicide "In Water" as a bad thing. That's why I believe the Japanese creators had the "In Water" as their favorite end in mind, before making the game, and had to readapt the game for multiple endings to please people in the west.Image


First of all, happy endings aren't Hollywood only, if they are, everything is Hollywood.

And second, I'm pretty sure they had multiple endings in mind, if they didn't why not just make one ending?

Even if people in Japan have different beliefs they still have different opinions, even in that pic you posted Ito says "It is for me", therefore, it's just his opinion, he doesn't say what's canon and what's not, just which endings he prefers.

What you wrote is wrong on so many levels. What, people in the West can't stand sad endings and people in Japan are one collective hive mind?
Last edited by Borg on Thu Mar 31, 2016 9:41 am.
 
 
 
 
 
 

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Post by Otherworld on Thu Mar 31, 2016 9:01 am

Panko1 wrote:
Otherworld wrote:In SH2 the characters are called to the otherworld because of the darkness in their hearts. There is no other influence like in SH1, SH3, SH4, and HC. Mary would have to have darkness in her heart.
This is how I see. The Otherworld infected Mary in her body not in her mind because she had no darkness in her past to remember of like James did. But she was in love with James and his darkness in his heart infected her body. But Mary kept her love for him. Mary was ready to be infected by the Otherworld for him. And James was ready to die for her. They just wanted to be together. The cause of Mary's Otherworld illness is her love for James. Even after he treating her like a sexual object she would still love him. Mary and James were infected by the Otherworld, but I believe they "clean" themselves of this "illness" on "In Water" when they finally meet and disappear "beneath the lake" like those 67 people before them.


The only thing I can fall back on here is the how the Otherworld is described in The Book of Lost Memories

The power of Silent Hill absorbs what people hold in their hearts and manifests delusions and elements of their subconscious minds. And so, the truth is that the consciousness that becomes the main constituent of what is called the "otherworld" varies. As a few different incarnations of the otherworld have been presented up to this point in the series, let us ascertain the differences in each of these respective works.


^ This is how the power of the land, the otherworld, works after the large-scale shift that occurred in the first game. It has to do with the mind.

Panko1 wrote:
Otherworld wrote:Yes James heads to Silent Hill to end his life, but the letter is not from Mary.
The Otherworld also happens in delusions. And if Mary is in the Otherworld she could be responsible for some of James' delusions and that includes the delusion of a letter. This means that in the Otherworld (as James said) "a dead person can't wright a (real) letter". I think there was never a physical letter it was just Mary's thoughts being communicated.


To me, the power of the town had collected some of Mary's thoughts and emotions after she had left and fell ill. This is how Maria is able to care as much as she did for Laura. But that does not mean that Mary herself is in the otherworld. She is dead.

Panko1 wrote:
Otherworld wrote:We know In Water is not canon because the creators said that there is no canon ending to SH2.
Maybe they said this because Konami wanted people in the west to enjoy happy "hollywood" endings. But people in Japan are different and they don't see the suicide "In Water" as a bad thing. That's why I believe the Japanese creators had the "In Water" as their favorite end in mind, before making the game, and had to readapt the game for multiple endings to please people in the west.Image


Devil covered this above, this is an opinion. It does not change the fact that there is no canon ending. Plus, the amount of work invested in the game to ensure that it stays open ended in the end would have been for nothing.
Last edited by Otherworld on Thu Mar 31, 2016 1:06 pm.
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Post by what on Thu Mar 31, 2016 11:34 am

In Water is simply one possible outcome. There is no true end to the game. Indeed, it would diminish how amazing Silent Hill 2 was, if only one of the endings was 'true'. You need all four endings, and the scenarios they describe, to get the full picture.

Or, perhaps it's better (and psychologically more acceptable) to say that they are all true, because every single one is possible and each one offers a piece of what makes James Sunderland such a compelling and credible fictional entity.
 
 
 
 
 
 

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Post by Otherworld on Thu Mar 31, 2016 1:32 pm

^ Agreed.

Again, pulled from The Book of Lost Memories....

Logue - Silent Hill 2
The complex story of the second game attracts attention with its shocking conclusion and various possible interpretations. If one plays with a deeper understanding of the elaborately integrated scenarios and the backgrounds of the characters that appear in the game, one should be able to gain a deeper appreciation for the story.


The creators have gone to great lengths to ensure that there are a ton of different interpretations for the many different outcomes that make James more than just a guy that wanted to commit suicide.
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Post by Panko1 on Thu Mar 31, 2016 7:48 pm

I already agree with this quote. Here is why.
Book of Lost Memories p31 wrote:The complex story of the second game attracts attention with its shocking conclusion and various possible interpretations. If one plays with a deeper understanding of the elaborately integrated scenarios and the backgrounds of the characters that appear in the game, one should be able to gain a deeper appreciation for the story.
  • "Conclusion" not "conclusions" (as a singular not a plural noun.) It means there's only one conclusion or ending.
  • "Shocking", the most shocking conclusion I can think of is the most tragic one (the suicide ending "In Water"). I noticed how you are all shocked.
  • "Various possible interpretations" does not mean "various possible conclusions" or "endings"."Interpretations" are just different opinions.
  • So the game has "various possible interpretations" but still one "shocking conclusion".
Otherworld wrote:
Book of Lost Memories p111 wrote:The power of Silent Hill absorbs what people hold in their hearts and manifests delusions and elements of their subconscious minds. And so, the truth is that the consciousness that becomes the main constituent of what is called the "otherworld" varies. As a few different incarnations of the otherworld have been presented up to this point in the series, let us ascertain the differences in each of these respective works.
This is how the power of the land, the otherworld, works after the large-scale shift that occurred in the first game. It has to do with the mind.
The love that Mary felt for James, was in her mind as well. Maybe that's how she absorbed the darkness in James' heart. But her illness caused by James' Otherworld was not a delusion, because the Otherworld does not only manifests in delusions, it has a physical affect on people as well. And it can make people's body sick like what happened with Heather in SH3.
REVEAL SPOILER: Silent Hill 4: The Room
silenthill.wikia.com/wiki/Otherworld wrote:The Otherworld is shown to be very dream-like. For example, when Henry Townshend meets Cynthia Velasquez, she believes it's a dream and asks "Well, if it's not a dream, what is it?". Whenever Henry travels back to his apartment, he wakes up on his bed as if he is awakening from a dream. In South Ashfield Station, near the turnstiles, if Henry attempts to read a memo, he states that the text is all blurry, which is a common occurrence in dreams. During the Building World level, Richard can be seen sleeping in his apartment room.

However, when Henry meets Eileen in the Hospital World, he says "If you get killed here, then you die in the real world, too.", implying that the Otherworld is not a literal dream, and that it still has some reality and physical existence as a basis, and that it's not purely mental. In addition, Eileen may say, "I'm in too much pain for it to be a dream! Plus I can see you so clearly."
Otherworld wrote:To me, the power of the town had collected some of Mary's thoughts and emotions after she had left and fell ill. This is how Maria (Mary) is able to care as much as she did for Laura. But that does not mean that Mary herself is in the otherworld. She is dead.
I agree. What I mean is that Mary was first infected by the Otherworld. And when she died of her illness she left her message (or thoughts) in Silent Hill for James's. In the letter when Mary told she was waiting in their "special place", James could not figure it out because Mary knew better than him. "Waiting" means "not gone yet". Because of her love for James she kept "waiting" between Silent Hill and Heaven. And the only way for James to see Mary was dieing in the ending "In Water".ImageThis message for James says "If you really want to see Mary, you should just DIE. But you might be heading to a different place than MARY, James." If James was heading to a difference place than Mary when he dies, then how would he see Mary? This can only mean one thing. Mary was not in Heaven yet, a part of her was waiting in Silent Hilll so she can take James to Heaven with her.
 
 
 
 
 

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Post by Borg on Thu Mar 31, 2016 7:52 pm

I think it refers to the whole "James killed Mary" twist when it mentions a "shocking conclusion".
 
 
 
 
 
 

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Post by Naroon on Fri Apr 01, 2016 4:15 am

Really reaching mega-hard here, Panko... The "shocking conclusion" is clearly them referring to the revelation that James killed Mary.
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Post by Borg on Fri Apr 01, 2016 5:41 am

Also, I think that message on the wall refers to Mary being dead and he might end up in Hell or something if he dies, while she's presumably in Heaven.
 
 
 
 
 
 

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Post by Oohfakanorus on Fri Apr 01, 2016 7:31 am

devil hunter wrote:Also, I think that message on the wall refers to Mary being dead and he might end up in Hell or something if he dies, while she's presumably in Heaven.


Mary: Is... Is this Heaven?
St. Peter: Welcome Mary! Oh by the way, did you wear clothing made of two different kinds of fabric?
Mary: Well doesn't everyone?

(St. Peter pulls a lever and Mary is springbroaded away from the clouds)

Mary:AAAAAAAAAAAAAAArrrrrrgghhhhh- oh, hi James! :D
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Post by Otherworld on Fri Apr 01, 2016 10:38 am

Panko1 wrote:I already agree with this quote. Here is why.
Book of Lost Memories p31 wrote:The complex story of the second game attracts attention with its shocking conclusion and various possible interpretations. If one plays with a deeper understanding of the elaborately integrated scenarios and the backgrounds of the characters that appear in the game, one should be able to gain a deeper appreciation for the story.
  • "Conclusion" not "conclusions" (as a singular not a plural noun.) It means there's only one conclusion or ending.
  • "Shocking", the most shocking conclusion I can think of is the most tragic one (the suicide ending "In Water"). I noticed how you are all shocked.
  • "Various possible interpretations" does not mean "various possible conclusions" or "endings"."Interpretations" are just different opinions.
  • So the game has "various possible interpretations" but still one "shocking conclusion".


Hey Panko1, I want to make something clear. I am all for new theories, and I am always happy to discuss them and give them a try as long as they do not go against The Book of Lost Memories or the subject matter. I just want to ensure that you know that I am not blindly against new theories as long as they work with the established facts that have already been confirmed.

Now I grant you the fact that there are various possible interpretations to the subject matter of Silent Hill 2.That being said the shocking conclusion is the fact that you start off as a man getting a letter from your dead wife that died of some disease 3 years ago and end up finding out at the conclusion of the story that you are the one that killed Mary. Devil and Naroon already mentioned this.

Panko1 wrote:
Otherworld wrote:[Book of Lost Memories p111"]The power of Silent Hill absorbs what people hold in their hearts and manifests delusions and elements of their subconscious minds. And so, the truth is that the consciousness that becomes the main constituent of what is called the "otherworld" varies. As a few different incarnations of the otherworld have been presented up to this point in the series, let us ascertain the differences in each of these respective works.

This is how the power of the land, the otherworld, works after the large-scale shift that occurred in the first game. It has to do with the mind.
The love that Mary felt for James, was in her mind as well. Maybe that's how she absorbed the darkness in James' heart. But her illness caused by James' Otherworld was not a delusion, because the Otherworld does not only manifests in delusions, it has a physical affect on people as well. And it can make people's body sick like what happened with Heather in SH3.


How is Mary able to absorb the darkness in James' heart ? And how would James have an otherworld with no guilt during their first visit ?

Panko1 wrote:
REVEAL SPOILER: Silent Hill 4: The Room
silenthill.wikia.com/wiki/Otherworld wrote:The Otherworld is shown to be very dream-like. For example, when Henry Townshend meets Cynthia Velasquez, she believes it's a dream and asks "Well, if it's not a dream, what is it?". Whenever Henry travels back to his apartment, he wakes up on his bed as if he is awakening from a dream. In South Ashfield Station, near the turnstiles, if Henry attempts to read a memo, he states that the text is all blurry, which is a common occurrence in dreams. During the Building World level, Richard can be seen sleeping in his apartment room.

However, when Henry meets Eileen in the Hospital World, he says "If you get killed here, then you die in the real world, too.", implying that the Otherworld is not a literal dream, and that it still has some reality and physical existence as a basis, and that it's not purely mental. In addition, Eileen may say, "I'm in too much pain for it to be a dream! Plus I can see you so clearly."
Otherworld wrote:To me, the power of the town had collected some of Mary's thoughts and emotions after she had left and fell ill. This is how Maria (Mary) is able to care as much as she did for Laura. But that does not mean that Mary herself is in the otherworld. She is dead.
I agree. What I mean is that Mary was first infected by the Otherworld. And when she died of her illness she left her message (or thoughts) in Silent Hill for James's. In the letter when Mary told she was waiting in their "special place", James could not figure it out because Mary knew better than him. "Waiting" means "not gone yet". Because of her love for James she kept "waiting" between Silent Hill and Heaven. And the only way for James to see Mary was dieing in the ending "In Water".ImageThis message for James says "If you really want to see Mary, you should just DIE. But you might be heading to a different place than MARY, James." If James was heading to a difference place than Mary when he dies, then how would he see Mary? This can only mean one thing. Mary was not in Heaven yet, a part of her was waiting in Silent Hilll so she can take James to Heaven with her.


We must remember that comparing otherworlds between the different games is a lot more difficult than you'd think. And the fact that mental distress can have a profound effect on the body should not be overlooked here. The body cannot survive without the mind.

BoLM quote:

XXI : THE WORLD

Another World

The main constituent of the otherworld differs in each work of the series


The meaning of the "writing on the wall" is to suggest that Mary is dead and in paradise and if James dies he won't end up in that same paradise, he'll end up somewhere else.

Image

The term "special place" is used to describe a couple of different locations. James says as much during his first meeting with Maria.

It seems that Mary is waiting for James in another location as well.....

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Post by what on Fri Apr 01, 2016 9:27 pm

Panko1 wrote:
  • "Conclusion" not "conclusions" (as a singular not a plural noun.) It means there's only one conclusion or ending.
  • "Shocking", the most shocking conclusion I can think of is the most tragic one (the suicide ending "In Water"). I noticed how you are all shocked.
  • "Various possible interpretations" does not mean "various possible conclusions" or "endings"."Interpretations" are just different opinions.
  • So the game has "various possible interpretations" but still one "shocking conclusion".


You're being excessively pedantic.

http://silenthillchronicle.net/sh2end.htm wrote:Of the four conclusions, there is no one correct interpretation. Each
ending indicates a different possibility.
 
 
 
 
 
 

Panko1

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Mary's Disease

Post by Panko1 on Sat Apr 02, 2016 9:21 am

Otherworld wrote:How is Mary able to absorb the darkness in James' heart ? And how would James have an otherworld with no guilt during their first visit ?
They have been cursed since their first visit. The true darkness of James' heart or guilt was exactly what Pyramid Head was showing to him. It's the lack of love James felt for Mary when he treated her like "sexual object". You can tell by the way that Pyramid Head was making "love" with those Mannequins. This was literally Jame's Otherworld since their first visit to Silent Hill. It was during their "love making" that Mary got infected by the darkness of James' heart. You can call this "Otherworld STD" if you like. But it wouldn't be a good idea considering your username.
Otherworld wrote:The meaning of the "writing on the wall" is to suggest that Mary is dead and in paradise and if James dies he won't end up in that same paradise, he'll end up somewhere else.

The term "special place" is used to describe a couple of different locations. James says as much during his first meeting with Maria.

It seems that Mary is waiting for James in another location as well.....
So the only "special place" where Mary is really waiting for James is in "paradise" because she's dead as you told yourself, and if James dies "he'll end up somewhere else", probably hell. But the "writing on the wall" also says "If you (James) really want to see Mary, you (James) should just DIE." Then how James would see Mary when he dies if "he'll end up somewhere else"? I already answered this, in my post above, but you just missed.
devil hunter wrote:I think it refers to the whole "James killed Mary" twist when it mentions a "shocking conclusion".
Naroon wrote:Really reaching mega-hard here, Panko... The "shocking conclusion" is clearly them referring to the revelation that James killed Mary.
Otherworld wrote:Now I grant you the fact that there are various possible interpretations to the subject matter of Silent Hill 2.That being said the shocking conclusion is the fact that you start off as a man getting a letter from your dead wife that died of some disease 3 years ago and end up finding out at the conclusion of the story that you are the one that killed Mary. Devil and Naroon already mentioned this.
I was sure that "shocking conclusion" was the actual conclusion of the game. But now you all say it's not the "conclusion". It's just the "revelation" that James killed Mary, even if that revelation happens before the game's unknown conclusion. So it's not a "shocking conclusion" anymore, it's just a "shocking revelation" that happens before one of the game's four conclusions. And since some of these four conclusions are not shocking at all, we might even get a "happy conclusion" after the "shocking revelation". If this is the case they need to rewrite the book and change "shocking conclusion" for "shocking revelation" to avoid misinterpretations.
Otherworld wrote:We know In Water is not canon because the creators said that there is no canon ending to SH2.
what wrote:You're being excessively pedantic.
http://silenthillchronicle.net/sh2end.htm wrote:Of the four conclusions, there is no one correct interpretation. Each
ending indicates a different possibility.
I need to point out one last thing. The creators have never "said that there is no canon ending to SH2" in any interview or commentary. And that quote from the Chronicle was not written by the creators of the game either. It was simply Konami's official statement. The fact is that the creators never mentioned anything about the game having or not having a canon ending. But...
silenthill.wikia.com/wiki/Silent_Hill_2#Endings wrote:Endings
Silent Hill 2 does not have an explicitly known canonical ending, although hints lean towards "In Water" being canon:
  • In Silent Hill 3 which also has plenty of Silent Hill 2 references, Douglas Cartland mentions he was involved in a case in which a man went missing in Silent Hill and was never found, and it is possible that Douglas was referring to James.
  • Silent Hill 4: The Room revealed that James and Mary "disappeared in Silent Hill".
  • The Book of Lost Memories says "Of the four conclusions, there is no correct interpretation. Each ending indicates a different possibility."
  • The novelization uses the In Water ending.
  • Masahiro Ito and Guy Cihi both choose In Water as their personal canon ending.
  • Masahiro Ito made Pyramid Head with In Water in mind.
This does not prove that "In Water" is canon, but at least support my theory that I could be right. And when someone says.
Otherworld wrote:^ That theory assumes that In Water is canon when we know it is not.
It just shows how you are the ones "being excessively pedantic". When in fact the "In Water" being canon is a real possibility and my theory supports that. Here is the ending of the novelization for you all "In Water" haters to enjoy.
Silent Hill 2 : The Official Novel c6 wrote:Image
“I love you, Mary.”

As the car began to slowly sink to the bottom of the lake, James pulled his wife close and gently held her. Their wish had finally come true. They would be together. And now they had an eternity to enjoy their happiness.
 
 
 
 
 

Naroon

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Mary's Disease

Post by Naroon on Sat Apr 02, 2016 9:52 am

I need to point out one last thing. The creators have never "said that there is no canon ending to SH2" in any interview or commentary. And that quote from the Chronicle was not written by the creators of the game either. It was simply Konami's official statement. The fact is that the creators never mentioned anything about the game having or not having a canon ending. But...


The Book was written with the explicit purpose of being official supplementary material to the game. If the stuff contained within it was erroneous or untrue, the Book would've never been marketed as such or created period. Ito and others have gone on record saying that there is no canon ending. There was the Ito tweet where a fan asked what his favorite ending was, or which one he thought was the best, and he said "In water, for me." -- emphasis on the "for me" part.

This does not prove that "In Water" is canon, but at least support my theory that I could be right. And when someone says.


The SH Wiki is written by peers, not anybody who worked on the games, and all that info is pure speculation. Let's go over the points:
- Douglas indeed says a man went missing there, and it's obviously an implied nod to James, but this doesn't mean that 'In Water' is the only ending it could refer to. Regardless of any of the endings, James has no choice but to "disappear" because he killed Mary and there's no way to go back to normal life and try to hide that fact. Even with the 'Leave' ending, he still most likely wouldn't be able to adopt Laura or continue life under his current identity because of what he did. Therefore regardless of which ending you get, the whole "he went there and that's the last time anybody saw 'em" can easily apply to ANY of the game's endings.

- Same as above

- Literally saying there is no canon ending here.

- The novelization is not canon to the game's events.

- Yep, and that's their right to choose those endings, but it doesn't mean it's canon.

- Source for this? Doesn't seem to make much sense.

It just shows how you are the ones "being excessively pedantic". When in fact the "In Water" being canon is a real possibility and my theory supports that. Here is the ending of the novelization for you all "In Water" haters to enjoy.


Nobody here is being pedantic besides you, dude. This isn't the first time you've tried to shove one of your theories down peoples' throats whilst ignoring factual evidence and certain trains of logic in the process. People aren't being pedantic, they're being pragmatic. 'In Water' being canon isn't a possibility because the Book itself shuts that notion down soundly. You and everybody else is more than free to believe any ending is what actually happened but that doesn't mean it will be set in stone as what factually happened. Not a single game in the series that succeeded it has gone to any length to confirm or even imply that any particular ending "actually happened."

Also who here is an "In Water hater" as you passive-aggressively proclaim? I like the ending but it's not my favorite. I'm just fervently dismissing the notion that it's canon and that any ending is canon in general. Nice novel reference but it bears absolutely zero relevance to the game and as such has no merit in this discussion.

Stuff like this is why it's much easier to just not care at all about what is or isn't canon in a series like this. Why can't people just enjoy a game for what it intrinsically presents them? What's with all this meta-level nonsense these days?
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Borg

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Mary's Disease

Post by Borg on Sat Apr 02, 2016 10:01 am

Panko1 wrote:They have been cursed since their first visit. The true darkness of James' heart or guilt was exactly what Pyramid Head was showing to him. It's the lack of love James felt for Mary when he treated her like "sexual object". You can tell by the way that Pyramid Head was making "love" with those Mannequins. This was literally Jame's Otherworld since their first visit to Silent Hill. It was during their "love making" that Mary got infected by the darkness of James' heart. You can call this "Otherworld STD" if you like. But it wouldn't be a good idea considering your username.


I think their love started to fall apart once Mary got sick I doubt it was because of their sexual activities.

Also, what are you saying here? James' evil spermg gave her the disease? What am I reading here?

Panko1 wrote:So the only "special place" where Mary is really waiting for James is in "paradise" because she's dead as you told yourself, and if James dies "he'll end up somewhere else", probably hell. But the "writing on the wall" also says "If you (James) really want to see Mary, you (James) should just DIE." Then how James would see Mary when he dies if "he'll end up somewhere else"?


No, their special place is not paradise or anything like that, it's the hotel. Nowhere on that wall are the words "special place" mentioned.

Panko1 wrote: But now you all say it's not the "conclusion". It's just the "revelation" that James killed Mary, even if that revelation happens before the game's unknown conclusion. So it's not a "shocking conclusion" anymore, it's just a "shocking revelation" that happens before one of the game's four conclusions. And since some of these four conclusions are not shocking at all, we might even get a "happy conclusion" after the "shocking revelation". If this is the case they need to rewrite the book and change "shocking conclusion" for "shocking revelation" to avoid misinterpretations.


That revelation happens near the end of the game, therefore it's the conclusion, I don't think the word conclusion only means "the very end", it means everything that's near the ending. If it happened earlier, then no, it wouldn't be a conclusion.
 
 
 
 
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