Neurotic

Posts: 38

Joined: Mar 05, 2016

Mary's Disease

Post by Neurotic on Mon Mar 07, 2016 8:33 pm

what wrote:I have to admit that it's an intriguing and original idea. I don't agree with it because it doesn't account for a lot of what's in the game. The whole plot concept of having killed her, and her having the disease and all, it really doesn't seem to fit all that well. Where do the over-arching concepts of guilt and grief come into play when the real catalyst appears to be a tragic accident?

Go on, tell me more. I want to be convinced.


Phew! Where do I begin? There's a lot of details that made me start questioning James' story and eventually lead me to my current interpretation/conclusion. I'll cover as much as I can in this post but I'm certain I won't be able to cover all of it.

In SH4 we're introduced to a Frank Sunderland who supposedly told Henry that his son and daughter-in-law went to Silent Hill and 'disappeared'. If the son referred to here is James, then the following questions arise;

-If Mary was indeed sick and died at home/in the hospital after they had returned from Silent Hill, how can she mysteriously 'disappear' in Silent Hill?

-If James left Silent Hill alive and well after SH2, how can he still be missing?

The Book of Lost Memories states that the Lake View Hotel was 'completely destroyed' by a fire before SH2 begins, yet in SH2 when James arrives at the hotel it's in perfect condition. When you make your way through the final part of the game, the hotel has somehow caught on fire.

http://www.translatedmemories.com/bookp ... reaMap.jpg

If James is reliving 'lost memories' from when him and Mary visited and they left before the fire incident, then I don't understand why the fire would be included unless they were there when it happened.


In the Toluca Prison part of the game there's a drawing of what appears to be Lake View Hotel engulfed in flames, the drawing is titled 'Burning Man'. Then there's this bizarre detail that is triggered by examining the heater oven in the Employee's lounge:

http://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/sil ... 0213135012

Just.. what? Is that suggestive of the oven being what caused the fire? Why would this detail even be here if James wasn't around when the fire occurred?

Then there's "The Grinning Man", copy/paste from wiki:

"In The Grinning Man, the title character brings a number of people he has abducted to the Lakeview Hotel because, as officer Mayberry explains it, the hotel is temporally and spatially challenged. Anyone who could manipulate those conditions would be able to hide a lot of people in the hotel. The Grinning Man binds his victims inside and brands them with his mark so he can feed off of their vitality to power his magic."

Strange coincidence considering that the Lakeview Hotel would be the last place Mary and James would spend time in before leaving Silent Hill and returning home, and also that it's James' final destination on the very brief list of potential 'special places' in SH2.

Then there's Mary's mysterious disease that is supposedly incurable and unidentifiable. I posted an imagine of her earlier in this thread, doesn't her facial scarring seem very similar to third-degree burns? Her other symptom, coughing, is also something that would be a result of someone inhaling smoke/flammable gasses.

In the 'home' video shot at Lake View Hotel, we see Mary cough before he video it interrupted, assuming that this is a symptom of the disease then it doesn't fit with the story at all;

According to Laura, Mary must've died recently since Laura turned 8 that previous week. In Laura's letter Mary wishes her a happy 8th birthday in advance. When she tells James that Rachel gave her the letter James responds with 'Who is Rachel?'. If Mary's disease progression was three years long, how can James not know who Rachel is?

Then there's the progression itself. In the audio clip dialogue James listens to at the Lake View Hotel of the conversation between him and Mary's doctor he is told that the disease is unidentifiable, incurable and that she has anything between six months and three years to life. Aside from it being rather odd that they can give a prognosis like that in regards to a disease they know nothing about, I have to question the following;

-Why would James repeat three years as the amount of time Mary has been dead for? Why not six months, or anything in-between that and three years?

-If the max length of survival was three years, why was it James that ended up killing her? Wouldn't her fighting like a champ and surviving beyond what was expected give some sort of hope for recovery?

-If James made consistent visits to Mary during the three year period she was hospitalized before killing her, how does he not know who Rachel is? Or even Laura?

In the hallway monologue at the hotel, Mary mentions that the hospital is keeping her alive cause they're making a profit off of her. If the disease is unknown and incurable, how would the hospital be able to keep her alive, and how would they even profit from wasting resources on a terminally ill patient?

Then there's a detail I noticed by accident while looking for something else, and it could be entirely coincidental but I find it rather creepy in context with everything else. Mary's doctor's voice actor is Dennis Falt. He has voiced one more character in the Silent Hill series; Walter Sullivan.

Another detail that could be entirely coincidental but creepy in context is the numbers six months and three years repeating in Cynthia's 21 Sacraments description;

http://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/sil ... 0417235920

There are tons of these little details suggestive of there being specific connections between stories, characters and/or events, begging the question if there details were added because there IS a link, or just at random?

One example being Walter Sullivan, from villains wiki: "Walter's in-game young model has blue eyes, while his adult model is central heterochromic with green and brown."

Central Heterochromia? Oddly specific, isn't it? It gets even more odd when checking the SH wiki article on Vincent; "Eye color - Central heterochromic: Green (outer rim), Brown (inner rim)".

http://silenthill.wikia.com/wiki/Vincent_Smith

Ridiculously huge coincidence or are they related/same person?
Last edited by Neurotic on Tue Mar 08, 2016 2:26 am.
 
 
 
 
 
 

vote4wsullivan

User avatar

Posts: 11

Joined: Apr 13, 2012

Mary's Disease

Post by vote4wsullivan on Tue Mar 08, 2016 1:34 am

My thanks to ye for reviving this post after several years of inactivity. ''Neurotic'' your theory has given me something to think about.
 
 
 
 
 
 

Neurotic

Posts: 38

Joined: Mar 05, 2016

Mary's Disease

Post by Neurotic on Tue Mar 08, 2016 2:31 am

vote4wsullivan wrote:My thanks to ye for reviving this post after several years of inactivity. ''Neurotic'' your theory has given me something to think about.


Happy to hear that it was good for something! :P

I made an edit in my post to add some additional musings on details and since you appear to be a Walter Sullivan 'fan', I think you might find what I added slightly more interesting. :)
 
 
 
 
 
 

Naroon

Member

User avatar

Pillman's got a gun!

Posts: 5325

Joined: Mar 29, 2011

Location: United States

Mary's Disease

Post by Naroon on Tue Mar 08, 2016 8:28 am

My crack at some of the questions:

-If Mary was indeed sick and died at home/in the hospital after they had returned from Silent Hill, how can she mysteriously 'disappear' in Silent Hill?


James could've told his dad that he and Mary were about to go to Silent Hill for another getaway (their special place) and thus this would've been the last place anyone would've suspected them of being.

-If James left Silent Hill alive and well after SH2, how can he still be missing?


He would be considered missing because there is no plausible way for him to lead a normal life after the events of the game. He only leaves the town in two of the endings, and one of these it's pretty dubious whether he will even truly leave it ("Maria".) Unless he decided to turn himself in (which he clearly didn't, hence his status of being disappeared), the only likely outcome is that he changed his identity and basically began a new life. After all, that's what Mary told him to do in the "best" ending, to go on living. In this case, Mary is dead but presumably James would put her body to rest somewhere before or after departing the town, and James would assume a new identity while everyone else is none the wiser about his murdering her. Hence they both remain "disappeared."

The Book of Lost Memories states that the Lake View Hotel was 'completely destroyed' by a fire before SH2 begins, yet in SH2 when James arrives at the hotel it's in perfect condition. When you make your way through the final part of the game, the hotel has somehow caught on fire.
[. . .]
If James is reliving 'lost memories' from when him and Mary visited and they left before the fire incident, then I don't understand why the fire would be included unless they were there when it happened.


The fire is included because that's the way the hotel looks in "reality" in the real world, or at least what it looked like some time after the fire. It's further illustrate the point that James is delusional and much of what he is seeing and experiencing is based on his subconscious issues and demons -- this is compounded by the letter/picture in his inventory that slowly fades away before disappearing entirely as the game goes on. In essence James has been lying to himself about things.

Just.. what? Is that suggestive of the oven being what caused the fire? Why would this detail even be here if James wasn't around when the fire occurred?


It's not the only thing in the game that has little or nothing to do with James, but is there anyway. It's because even though it's James' story, it doesn't mean literally everything he sees is a direct result of his psyche or what have you. I'm pretty sure James didn't care or know about the Jennifer Carol statue, for example.

According to Laura, Mary must've died recently since Laura turned 8 that previous week. In Laura's letter Mary wishes her a happy 8th birthday in advance. When she tells James that Rachel gave her the letter James responds with 'Who is Rachel?'. If Mary's disease progression was three years long, how can James not know who Rachel is?


It's implied in the game that due to Mary's frequent mood swings and lashing out at James, that he didn't visit her with a continuing frequency. Thus it's entirely possible that James spent long stretches of time without going to see her, and would've missed out on ever seeing/meeting Rachel.

-Why would James repeat three years as the amount of time Mary has been dead for? Why not six months, or anything in-between that and three years?


Maybe because she actually suffered for three years or close to it before he killed her? So he became fixated on that length of time as the time that she was "dead". To James, Mary figuratively died when she was diagnosed with the illness, because all of their joy and happiness was removed in an instant.

-If the max length of survival was three years, why was it James that ended up killing her? Wouldn't her fighting like a champ and surviving beyond what was expected give some sort of hope for recovery?


It's not easy to come to terms with the fact that the person you love with all your heart is slowly dying a painful death from a horrible disease and knowing there's nothing you can do about it. The psychological toll would've been immense and thus he wouldn't be thinking completely rationally. The game makes it clear that James' exact "motives" for killing her are complex and multi-faceted, and not as simple as a "black & white" decision.

-If James made consistent visits to Mary during the three year period she was hospitalized before killing her, how does he not know who Rachel is? Or even Laura?


Addressed above.

In the hallway monologue at the hotel, Mary mentions that the hospital is keeping her alive cause they're making a profit off of her. If the disease is unknown and incurable, how would the hospital be able to keep her alive, and how would they even profit from wasting resources on a terminally ill patient?


Keeping her alive is just a matter of "treating" her to extend her life. Similar to a lot of cancer patients even today, it's often a matter of "living longer" rather than dying sooner. If she were to cease getting treatment, the ETA on her life ending would've been much shorter. As for the hospital profiting off her: healthcare.

Walter and Vincent are not the same person.
Image
 
 
 
 
 

Neurotic

Posts: 38

Joined: Mar 05, 2016

Mary's Disease

Post by Neurotic on Tue Mar 08, 2016 10:29 am

Naroon wrote:My crack at some of the questions:


Many thanks in advance! :)
Naroon wrote:James could've told his dad that he and Mary were about to go to Silent Hill for another getaway (their special place) and thus this would've been the last place anyone would've suspected them of being.


While she was terminally ill or am I misunderstanding you here?

I went to look up the exact quote and have to make a slight correction in regards to my previous statements; Henry doesn't specifically mention that it was Frank that told him, just that he 'heard' it.

Henry: "I got this photo from Sunderland, the superintendent. I heard his son and daughter-in-law disappeared in Silent Hill a few years back..."

Makes me wonder about who told him, how many knew and how many years Henry/the informant thinks 'a few' means. Would seven years be considered 'a few'?

Naroon wrote:He would be considered missing because there is no plausible way for him to lead a normal life after the events of the game. He only leaves the town in two of the endings, and one of these it's pretty dubious whether he will even truly leave it ("Maria".) Unless he decided to turn himself in (which he clearly didn't, hence his status of being disappeared), the only likely outcome is that he changed his identity and basically began a new life. After all, that's what Mary told him to do in the "best" ending, to go on living. In this case, Mary is dead but presumably James would put her body to rest somewhere before or after departing the town, and James would assume a new identity while everyone else is none the wiser about his murdering her. Hence they both remain "disappeared."


Is there any information suggesting that anyone else knew about it, though? If Mary was living on borrowed time already, then it must've been expected that they'd find her dead one day, and probably not see any reason to suspect foul play.

Naroon wrote:The fire is included because that's the way the hotel looks in "reality" in the real world, or at least what it looked like some time after the fire. It's further illustrate the point that James is delusional and much of what he is seeing and experiencing is based on his subconscious issues and demons -- this is compounded by the letter/picture in his inventory that slowly fades away before disappearing entirely as the game goes on. In essence James has been lying to himself about things.


I've considered this myself and I agree what James would've had a reason to present the hotel in the before and after state, what I can't make sense of is the in-between part; the staircase going on up flames, for example.

Totally agree with James lying to himself(and us), I'm just not so sure about him being truthful about his reason/motivation for doing so...

Naroon wrote:
It's not the only thing in the game that has little or nothing to do with James, but is there anyway. It's because even though it's James' story, it doesn't mean literally everything he sees is a direct result of his psyche or what have you. I'm pretty sure James didn't care or know about the Jennifer Carol statue, for example.


But there's a distinction between manifestations of delusions and what actually exist in reality, correct? Even if James care or didn't care about the Jennifer Caroll statue doesn't change the fact that it is actually there. He(the player) can choose to read the plaque or not, but it won't cease to exist if he doesn't? And what about Abstract Daddy?

Is it solipsistic in here or is it just me?

Sorry, just had to crack a lame joke. :P

I imagine he'd have to do a bit of maneuvering to be able to read the heater-text; Written on the back in small letters. The hell was he doing down-behind there? :D
Naroon wrote:
It's implied in the game that due to Mary's frequent mood swings and lashing out at James, that he didn't visit her with a continuing frequency. Thus it's entirely possible that James spent long stretches of time without going to see her, and would've missed out on ever seeing/meeting Rachel.


It is entirely possible, I agree. It's also possible that he may have met Rachel but forgotten about it/her name. I just have a hard time with not questioning everything he says/observes when the purpose of being 'called' to Silent Hill isn't clear, assuming that there is a purpose, of course.

Naroon wrote:Maybe because she actually suffered for three years or close to it before he killed her? So he became fixated on that length of time as the time that she was "dead". To James, Mary figuratively died when she was diagnosed with the illness, because all of their joy and happiness was removed in an instant.



You do make a good point here. Hitting the three year mark and seeing that she is still alive could've motivated him to pillow her to death. But then normative ethics comes into play and I'm left questioning James' moral convictions... They're pretty shitty, I must say.

Naroon wrote:It's not easy to come to terms with the fact that the person you love with all your heart is slowly dying a painful death from a horrible disease and knowing there's nothing you can do about it. The psychological toll would've been immense and thus he wouldn't be thinking completely rationally. The game makes it clear that James' exact "motives" for killing her are complex and multi-faceted, and not as simple as a "black & white" decision.


Oh I'm quite aware of it being anything but easy(mother with chronic illness and SCC). It's the parts of his motivation that are entirely selfish I have problems with, and Mary didn't exactly look as if she was 'in on it', so to speak. If James' intention was to apply a Kevorkian pillow, shouldn't it be Mary's choice and hers alone?

Naroon wrote:Keeping her alive is just a matter of "treating" her to extend her life. Similar to a lot of cancer patients even today, it's often a matter of "living longer" rather than dying sooner. If she were to cease getting treatment, the ETA on her life ending would've been much shorter. As for the hospital profiting off her: healthcare.


But cancer isn't an unknown disease, the mechanism behind it is known and that's what opens up doors for treatment and possible cures. It's been researched for a considerably long period of time, after all.

Take Transmissible Spongiform Encephalopaties, for example; relatively new diseases, 100% fatal, research has been done and the basic mechanism has been identified but there's still no cure to speak of and treatment options are sub-poor. One of them, FFI, doesn't even have any palliative care options. Mary's disease is supposedly completely unknown, so I don't see how they can keep her alive when they don't know anything about it.

I know fairly little about health care in the US, so correct me if I'm wrong here but, wouldn't hospitalization/treatment costs be huge? Would an insurance company be willing to pay for that?
Naroon wrote:Walter and Vincent are not the same person.


Related then?
 
 
 
 
 
 

Naroon

Member

User avatar

Pillman's got a gun!

Posts: 5325

Joined: Mar 29, 2011

Location: United States

Mary's Disease

Post by Naroon on Tue Mar 08, 2016 11:26 am

While she was terminally ill or am I misunderstanding you here?

I went to look up the exact quote and have to make a slight correction in regards to my previous statements; Henry doesn't specifically mention that it was Frank that told him, just that he 'heard' it.

Henry: "I got this photo from Sunderland, the superintendent. I heard his son and daughter-in-law disappeared in Silent Hill a few years back..."

Makes me wonder about who told him, how many knew and how many years Henry/the informant thinks 'a few' means. Would seven years be considered 'a few'?


While she was still ill, yes. At one point she was allowed to go back home to spend what little time she had left with James in a familiar place, so it would've happened after that.

I thought there was a scene in SH4 where you look through the peephole and Frank elaborated a bit on his son disappearing in SH to Eileen, but that could easily be my faulty memory since it's been ages since I've been thru the game. You raise an interesting point though -- who exactly did Henry hear this from?

Is there any information suggesting that anyone else knew about it, though? If Mary was living on borrowed time already, then it must've been expected that they'd find her dead one day, and probably not see any reason to suspect foul play.


Yeah, this is an interesting point that has been discussed before, it just makes everything even more complex and open-ended. Various friends and family of James and Mary had to have known she was ill and didn't have much time left, especially considering her ~3 years of being diagnosed with the disease. The fact that James killed her and then took her body with him to Silent Hill made things a lot more complicated than they could have been because at some point, someone would've came to check on them and if Mary's body were missing, it would raise suspicion. This is why James could never return to a normal life if he were to escape the nightmare he went through in the Leave ending.

I've considered this myself and I agree what James would've had a reason to present the hotel in the before and after state, what I can't make sense of is the in-between part; the staircase going on up flames, for example.

Totally agree with James lying to himself(and us), I'm just not so sure about him being truthful about his reason/motivation for doing so...


Well the bit with the staircase going up in flames, that was Angela's doing. It was to show us that even James could see other people's nightmares and problems, just like how we see Eddie's otherworld where it's filled with the corpses of the "people" who were tormenting him. Eddie's otherworld is seemingly a ton of frozen meat lockers and such which carries direct symbolism to him. Notice how in the room where you have the boss fight with him, the hanging pieces of meat are bloated and "fat", which ties in to Eddie himself being overweight (this is one of the things people teased and tormented him over.) The weird pattern on the meat also bears a resemblance to Eddie's outfit with the shorts and striped shirt. Angela's otherworld is apparently on fire everywhere she goes, probably a reference to the guilt she felt, even though she was a victim and her sins were arguably well-justified. When James sees the burning staircase, and the Abstract Daddy boss fight room with the pistons in the wall, he is seeing what Angela saw in her deeper otherworld, essentially.

As for James' explanation/confession, yes this is also dubious, most definitely intentionally, to further compliment the fact that James' motivations can change depending on which ending the player is trying to get. James' character -- because of this -- can wildly vary in subtle yet significant ways in terms of what his true motivation was for killing Mary. Was he a kind, caring husband pushed to the psychological limit due to heartbreak and truly wanting to end his wife's suffering via euthanasia, or was he a cold aloof douche who brutally murdered his wife with a pillow out of spite and anger over not being able to have the life he originally envisioned? It's up to the player's actions who James really is and what his will truly is, and I guess this is one reason why so many people hold this game in high regards.

But there's a distinction between manifestations of delusions and what actually exist in reality, correct? Even if James care or didn't care about the Jennifer Caroll statue doesn't change the fact that it is actually there. He(the player) can choose to read the plaque or not, but it won't cease to exist if he doesn't? And what about Abstract Daddy?


This is why I love this series, it's filled with so much complex, thought-provoking concepts like these. I don't think it's meant to be a form of solipsism, but more an implication that the Otherworld is a constant chaotic flux of reality that exists parallel to the normal layer of reality that we and the characters inhabit on a daily basis. Because of this, it means that even though people can and will be dragged into the otherworld, even if it's due to them being "called" to it, they still aren't the sole architects of what is seen and generated there.

An example of this is the cockroaches you can find in various parts of SH2. Most of the creatures in the game are born from James' psyche and subconscious desires, but the roaches are not. They are leftovers, or "imprints" from the first game -- more specifically, Alessa. The roaches in the first game came from Alessa's fascination with bugs and insects, but they still persist to be in the second game in spite of Alessa's story basically being wrapped up at this point, or at least on hold canonically lol. This reinforces the notion that the otherworld is an ever-present reality that can be augmented with the strong energetic/metaphysical imprints from external influences.

So even though the Jennifer Carol thing had nothing to really do with James, it's still there and there's a chance that anyone else who happened to come across it would've possibly seen the same thing anyway. Given that the statue area holds an important puzzle piece that James needs to move ahead in his journey, and directions to said area can be obtained from written instructions left behind by an unknown aid, one has to wonder just who and what left it there. Was it the town itself giving James a bone? Was it someone else who for reasons unknown somehow had uncanny foreknowledge about James and his plight? The 'Born From a Wish' scenario lends credence to the latter possibility, where the ghost Ernest somehow knows about James and his nature, and informs Maria that he is a "very bad man."

It is entirely possible, I agree. It's also possible that he may have met Rachel but forgotten about it/her name. I just have a hard time with not questioning everything he says/observes when the purpose of being 'called' to Silent Hill isn't clear, assuming that there is a purpose, of course.


I agree with this notion. It may be possible that he met Rachel but totally forgot about her at some point. I think James came to town with the idea of suicide (BoLM basically confirms this), which is why Mary's body is in the car with him. But when he exits the car at the start of the game and is in the mirror, this is the moment his delusion "triggers", the moment he creates the illusionary construct of the "letter", when he fabricates the notion of his wife being dead for three years, but also the point where Maria herself is "born". James' scenario starts with him staring into the mirror -- Born From a Wish also begins with Maria inside a room at Heaven's Night right next to a mirror. James' "wish" was to create an alternate reality where he didn't actually murder his wife and where she was still alive and healthy -- hence Maria's existence -- an almost exact doppelganger who is slightly sexualized and idealized, solely for him.

Oh I'm quite aware of it being anything but easy(mother with chronic illness and SCC). It's the parts of his motivation that are entirely selfish I have problems with, and Mary didn't exactly look as if she was 'in on it', so to speak. If James' intention was to apply a Kevorkian pillow, shouldn't it be Mary's choice and hers alone?


Yep, the topic of James' moral convictions and what he ultimately decided to do is a can of worms, and I've gone on record as blasting him for it in the past. I was very displeased with the method he chose for killing her, because he could've easily found a way to do it without causing her any pain. I think the pillow was chosen because that pain element is a carry-over of his selfish rage and resentment over her not being healthy and her imminent passing on. He appears to kiss her on the forehead before doing the deed, but it's still a shitty way of going about it.

I know fairly little about health care in the US, so correct me if I'm wrong here but, wouldn't hospitalization/treatment costs be huge? Would an insurance company be willing to pay for that?


My comparison wasn't so much meant to imply that cancers are unknown or anything, but just comparing the methods of treatment. I think it's possible that in spite of not having a cure for it, they probably had some sort of drugs or treatment methods that helped stave off death at least a tad bit.

In the US, healthcare costs can be pretty brutal. Sometimes insurance can cover it but it's fairly common for people to wind up spending life savings just to pay for it or even being SOL because they can't afford it. I'm not especially well-versed in the healthcare economics myself but that's generally what I have seen and heard from friends and such on the issue.

Related then?


There's nothing to really suggest it besides the eye thing, but you never know!
Image
 
 
 
 
 

Neurotic

Posts: 38

Joined: Mar 05, 2016

Mary's Disease

Post by Neurotic on Tue Mar 08, 2016 12:57 pm

Naroon wrote:While she was still ill, yes. At one point she was allowed to go back home to spend what little time she had left with James in a familiar place, so it would've happened after that.



Hmm.. I don't know about that one. As far as I'm aware, there's no evidence suggesting that she did anything but go home to kicketh the bucket. In the ending that shows her actually dying, James doesn't even do anything but watch! See my confusion? He switches up the story constantly, even in the endings!

Naroon wrote:
I thought there was a scene in SH4 where you look through the peephole and Frank elaborated a bit on his son disappearing in SH to Eileen, but that could easily be my faulty memory since it's been ages since I've been thru the game. You raise an interesting point though -- who exactly did Henry hear this from?


I'll check up on the Eileen/Frank one. If it happened, I shall find it! :P

Naroon wrote:Yeah, this is an interesting point that has been discussed before, it just makes everything even more complex and open-ended. Various friends and family of James and Mary had to have known she was ill and didn't have much time left, especially considering her ~3 years of being diagnosed with the disease. The fact that James killed her and then took her body with him to Silent Hill made things a lot more complicated than they could have been because at some point, someone would've came to check on them and if Mary's body were missing, it would raise suspicion. This is why James could never return to a normal life if he were to escape the nightmare he went through in the Leave ending.


Yeah, the body-snatching thing would get him in trouble regardless of if he had anything to do with her death. Can't exactly shoehorn her into the local morgue unnoticed either. But it all depends on where she died really; if at home then nobody else would know, right?

Since you mention family.. Mary Shepherd-Sunderland. Shepherd? THE Shepherds? Of Shepherd's Glen?

Naroon wrote:
Well the bit with the staircase going up in flames, that was Angela's doing. It was to show us that even James could see other people's nightmares and problems, just like how we see Eddie's otherworld where it's filled with the corpses of the "people" who were tormenting him. Eddie's otherworld is seemingly a ton of frozen meat lockers and such which carries direct symbolism to him. Notice how in the room where you have the boss fight with him, the hanging pieces of meat are bloated and "fat", which ties in to Eddie himself being overweight (this is one of the things people teased and tormented him over.) The weird pattern on the meat also bears a resemblance to Eddie's outfit with the shorts and striped shirt. Angela's otherworld is apparently on fire everywhere she goes, probably a reference to the guilt she felt, even though she was a victim and her sins were arguably well-justified. When James sees the burning staircase, and the Abstract Daddy boss fight room with the pistons in the wall, he is seeing what Angela saw in her deeper otherworld, essentially.


Fire. Symbolic of hell, right? I found it comforting that she is seen ascending the staircase as opposed to descending it. Possible symbolism of her ascending to 'heaven' from hell?

I view her presence in Silent Hill as an anomaly, though; She is sinless, there's no reason for her to be there. And that room.. Brilliant work on the symbolism, I always end up feeling physically ill if I spend too much time in there. First piece of entertainment media in history that has made me seriously consider bringing a bucket along.


I've taken notice of all locations where James encounter Eddie; it's always food-related. I have a different interpretation of the reason, though; That's how James views Eddie. A fatass who doesn't do anything much except eat;

First encounter: Puking from overeating.
Second encounter: Pizza on the table.
Third encounter: Prison cafeteria.
Fourth encounter: Meat locker.

As for the corpses, has it been revealed that they represent his past tormentors?
Naroon wrote:As for James' explanation/confession, yes this is also dubious, most definitely intentionally, to further compliment the fact that James' motivations can change depending on which ending the player is trying to get. James' character -- because of this -- can wildly vary in subtle yet significant ways in terms of what his true motivation was for killing Mary. Was he a kind, caring husband pushed to the psychological limit due to heartbreak and truly wanting to end his wife's suffering via euthanasia, or was he a cold aloof douche who brutally murdered his wife with a pillow out of spite and anger over not being able to have the life he originally envisioned? It's up to the player's actions who James really is and what his will truly is, and I guess this is one reason why so many people hold this game in high regards.


So far I'm stuck on misogynistic self-absorbed twatwaffle.

Naroon wrote:This is why I love this series, it's filled with so much complex, thought-provoking concepts like these. I don't think it's meant to be a form of solipsism, but more an implication that the Otherworld is a constant chaotic flux of reality that exists parallel to the normal layer of reality that we and the characters inhabit on a daily basis. Because of this, it means that even though people can and will be dragged into the otherworld, even if it's due to them being "called" to it, they still aren't the sole architects of what is seen and generated there.


Agreed! I especially enjoy how they pull concepts from real-life into the story. Silent Hill being Salem Village, Massachusetts for example. The exploration of real-life history, the clash of cultures, religious beliefs and how they evolve and eventually amalgamate then split again.

Naroon wrote:An example of this is the cockroaches you can find in various parts of SH2. Most of the creatures in the game are born from James' psyche and subconscious desires, but the roaches are not. They are leftovers, or "imprints" from the first game -- more specifically, Alessa. The roaches in the first game came from Alessa's fascination with bugs and insects, but they still persist to be in the second game in spite of Alessa's story basically being wrapped up at this point, or at least on hold canonically lol. This reinforces the notion that the otherworld is an ever-present reality that can be augmented with the strong energetic/metaphysical imprints from external influences.


Roaches is a brilliant choice for that symbolism seeing as they're virtually unkillable! :D

Naroon wrote:So even though the Jennifer Carol thing had nothing to really do with James, it's still there and there's a chance that anyone else who happened to come across it would've possibly seen the same thing anyway. Given that the statue area holds an important puzzle piece that James needs to move ahead in his journey, and directions to said area can be obtained from written instructions left behind by an unknown aid, one has to wonder just who and what left it there. Was it the town itself giving James a bone? Was it someone else who for reasons unknown somehow had uncanny foreknowledge about James and his plight? The 'Born From a Wish' scenario lends credence to the latter possibility, where the ghost Ernest somehow knows about James and his nature, and informs Maria that he is a "very bad man."


I don't think the statue itself was for James' benefit, it's more about the player, I think. It provides us with the information on the real-life Silent Hill being Salem Village.
"Born from a wish" is problematic to me. If Maria is purely a figment of James' imagination, it wouldn't make any sense for her to have her own scenario. The name is also suggestive to me of who is behind Maria's 'conception'; Wish House Orphanage? The Order.

She also walks around gathering the items that Walter Sullivan needs to complete the Ritual of the Holy Assumption. I'm conflicted about it's place in the timeline as well; I highly doubt that it takes place right before James' arrival in Silent Hill, I'm currently suspecting a 1 - 2 year gap..

I doubt Ernest being who he claims to be as well, precisely because of what you just mentioned; He knows TOO much. And is it just me or does he speak rather... strange? I keep getting the feeling that it's a recording.. Might just be me but still, it's unsettling..

Naroon wrote:
I agree with this notion. It may be possible that he met Rachel but totally forgot about her at some point. I think James came to town with the idea of suicide (BoLM basically confirms this), which is why Mary's body is in the car with him. But when he exits the car at the start of the game and is in the mirror, this is the moment his delusion "triggers", the moment he creates the illusionary construct of the "letter", when he fabricates the notion of his wife being dead for three years, but also the point where Maria herself is "born". James' scenario starts with him staring into the mirror -- Born From a Wish also begins with Maria inside a room at Heaven's Night right next to a mirror. James' "wish" was to create an alternate reality where he didn't actually murder his wife and where she was still alive and healthy -- hence Maria's existence -- an almost exact doppelganger who is slightly sexualized and idealized, solely for him.


About the body in the car, I noticed this on the Mary wiki:

"While the Book of Lost Memories suggests the possibility of James taking Mary's body with him to Silent Hill in the trunk of his car, the novelization affirms it and follows the "In Water" ending. However, Masahiro Ito said that that he believed Mary's body was actually on the back seat. When asked how James didn't notice her body, Ito replied that James had repressed the memory of her murder."

I don't see the logic in that statement; even if he suppressed the act itself doesn't change the fact that there's a dead body in his back seat! :D

And supposing this is accurate, imagine Laura's reaction when/if they arrive at the Observation Platform? :S

SLIGHTLY sexualized?! I started ovulating at the mere sight of her! :P

Gotta wonder about why Maria has her own room at Heaven's Night. We know that the place actually exists cause Heather went there, and even made a Maria-related comment.

Mirrors are quite prevalent in the SH universe; Heather has spectrophobia, Angela is disgusted by her own reflection, James starts his journey by groping his own face in front of a mirror, and even more interesting; it was central to the real-life Salem Witch Trials.

Naroon wrote:Yep, the topic of James' moral convictions and what he ultimately decided to do is a can of worms, and I've gone on record as blasting him for it in the past. I was very displeased with the method he chose for killing her, because he could've easily found a way to do it without causing her any pain. I think the pillow was chosen because that pain element is a carry-over of his selfish rage and resentment over her not being healthy and her imminent passing on. He appears to kiss her on the forehead before doing the deed, but it's still a shitty way of going about it.


There's also the psychology behind concealing the victim's face; Sadistic killers gets off on watching their victims' faces. James appears to want none of that shit. I agree though, he could've found a less traumatic and painful way to do it.

Naroon wrote:My comparison wasn't so much meant to imply that cancers are unknown or anything, but just comparing the methods of treatment. I think it's possible that in spite of not having a cure for it, they probably had some sort of drugs or treatment methods that helped stave off death at least a tad bit.


Assuming that it is a disease as opposed to my alternate suggestion, any ideas to what it could be?

Naroon wrote:In the US, healthcare costs can be pretty brutal. Sometimes insurance can cover it but it's fairly common for people to wind up spending life savings just to pay for it or even being SOL because they can't afford it. I'm not especially well-versed in the healthcare economics myself but that's generally what I have seen and heard from friends and such on the issue.


Yeah, from what I've heard there are tough times over there and has been for a while?

Naroon wrote:There's nothing to really suggest it besides the eye thing, but you never know!


You don't find the eye thing compelling?
 
 
 
 
 
 

Naroon

Member

User avatar

Pillman's got a gun!

Posts: 5325

Joined: Mar 29, 2011

Location: United States

Mary's Disease

Post by Naroon on Tue Mar 08, 2016 3:11 pm

Hmm.. I don't know about that one. As far as I'm aware, there's no evidence suggesting that she did anything but go home to kicketh the bucket. In the ending that shows her actually dying, James doesn't even do anything but watch! See my confusion? He switches up the story constantly, even in the endings!


Sorry about that, what I meant by "familiar place" was the Sunderland/Shepard household, haha. I don't think they went to Silent Hill again after she came home, besides after he murdered her of course.

Since you mention family.. Mary Shepherd-Sunderland. Shepherd? THE Shepherds? Of Shepherd's Glen?


Yeah this has been brought up before in the fandom. There's nothing that outright confirms it, but nothing that debunks it either, so I guess it's up to the player whether they're all related or not ;).

Fire. Symbolic of hell, right? I found it comforting that she is seen ascending the staircase as opposed to descending it. Possible symbolism of her ascending to 'heaven' from hell?

I view her presence in Silent Hill as an anomaly, though; She is sinless, there's no reason for her to be there.


Angela is a really unique and tragic character. Any actual human capable of empathizing at all with another human can't help but sympathize with her plight. What's truly scary about Angela's being called to the town is the fact that she's not really evil nor did she do anything that most people would view as outlandish. It was an extreme form of self-defense and retribution from a moral standpoint. The game then implies that the reason she is there and is being punished is because she herself believes she deserves this. This is even more tragic once you realize that this sort of psychological self-blaming is a real phenomenon present in rape victims; sometimes they will dissociate from the reality of what happened in various ways, one way of which is blaming themselves for it happening. I think Angela in the game says that her mother did nothing to prevent the abuse and even told Angela she deserved it (it's either in the game or in the novel, the latter of which is dubious as to whether or not it is canon by virtue of some minor discrepancies with the game if I remember correctly.)

I've taken notice of all locations where James encounter Eddie; it's always food-related. I have a different interpretation of the reason, though; That's how James views Eddie. A fatass who doesn't do anything much except eat;

First encounter: Puking from overeating.
Second encounter: Pizza on the table.
Third encounter: Prison cafeteria.
Fourth encounter: Meat locker.

As for the corpses, has it been revealed that they represent his past tormentors?


Astute observation there with the food symbolism. The first encounter is the only one I don't agree with though: I believe Eddie is vomiting because of the corpse we see hanging out of the fridge in that scene. James inquires about the corpse and how it got there, while Eddie vehemently denies that he had anything to do with it. At this point James has no idea about Eddie's true nature, but given the fact that Eddie later goes on an ax-crazy killing spree against the manifestations that he sees later on in the game, and it's quite possible Eddie was already killing manifestations before James even met him.

Basically with the scenes leading up to Eddie's boss fight, especially the cafeteria scene where we see a guy with his brains freshly blown out at a table, it becomes abundantly clear that Eddie was the one behind the rampant corpses in these areas. Take note in this scene that the corpse at the table is wearing clothes that look suspiciously similar to the ones James is wearing if you look at the macabre painting on the wall in that room.

"Born from a wish" is problematic to me. If Maria is purely a figment of James' imagination, it wouldn't make any sense for her to have her own scenario. The name is also suggestive to me of who is behind Maria's 'conception'; Wish House Orphanage? The Order.

She also walks around gathering the items that Walter Sullivan needs to complete the Ritual of the Holy Assumption. I'm conflicted about it's place in the timeline as well; I highly doubt that it takes place right before James' arrival in Silent Hill, I'm currently suspecting a 1 - 2 year gap..

I doubt Ernest being who he claims to be as well, precisely because of what you just mentioned; He knows TOO much. And is it just me or does he speak rather... strange? I keep getting the feeling that it's a recording.. Might just be me but still, it's unsettling..


The Born From a Wish scenario is my favorite part of the game, lol. The music, the atmosphere, the mysteries unique to the scenario, it's all so perfectly crafted. There is enough backstory about Ernest that makes it seem he really is who he says he is, but at the same time, we still don't really know what he was in terms of his identity. Some used to posit over the idea that Ernest was a cult member of some sort, because of the fact that he was trying to get some of the key items for a specific ritual that can bring people back from the dead before he died. He is confined to his mansion, and outside of the mansion, there's the message that says "Beware of haunted mansion!" scrawled on the wall. There's also a corpse outside in a pool of blood, which may be Ernest's.

I don't believe the Order had anything to do with Maria's conception. This game doesn't feature any cult stuff outside of some optional ritual items you can pick up in James' scenario on a New Game Plus run, and the same items in Maria's scenario. Maria is indeed a manifestation, but she's unique because she seems to be sentient in spite of being crafted from James' psyche. Some even argue that Maria is a composite of not just what James wanted, but also partially a reincarnation of Mary herself.

Continuing with that train of thought, Ernest has a line of dialogue where he seemingly is about to outright inform Maria of the nature of her existence, before Maria cuts him off mid-sentence with a dismissive retort. After she leaves the mansion, she has an existential breakdown because it seems she is painfully self-aware of the true nature of her conception and purpose, and seems to be ready to kill herself, before "something" persuades her not to, and she then assumes the behavior of a creature of habit -- i.e. a manifestation -- programmed to seek out James and stay close to him no matter what. Thus she ends up waiting for him by the lake, seemingly knowing he was gonna run through that way at some point.

Gotta wonder about why Maria has her own room at Heaven's Night. We know that the place actually exists cause Heather went there, and even made a Maria-related comment.


Yeah it's something that fascinated me. There was a theory that Maria's identity was partially inspired by a dancer who was actually alive at some point, or something like that. It's odd because Maria spawns in that room, but it seems "Lady Maria" might have actually been a real fixture in the town at some point.

About the mirrors, yes they have definitely been deliberately incorporated in the series a lot. Special mention to them being a central gameplay mechanic in Origins as well.

Assuming that it is a disease as opposed to my alternate suggestion, any ideas to what it could be?


No idea. Probably buffalo herpes like 'what' suggested. But how Mary even contracted such a thing is another debacle in and of itself :p.

You don't find the eye thing compelling?


It's definitely interesting, but I don't really feel strongly either way about it. Vincent is a weirdo who doesn't seem to enjoy brushing his teeth much. Walter was all kinds of fucked up almost since his birth. Maybe weirdness runs in their family line just like the Sunderlands?
Image
 
 
 
 
 

Neurotic

Posts: 38

Joined: Mar 05, 2016

Mary's Disease

Post by Neurotic on Tue Mar 08, 2016 4:44 pm

Naroon wrote:Sorry about that, what I meant by "familiar place" was the Sunderland/Shepard household, haha. I don't think they went to Silent Hill again after she came home, besides after he murdered her of course.


Ah yes! :)

Does that mean that he kept his promise to her? Technically? :P

Naroon wrote:Yeah this has been brought up before in the fandom. There's nothing that outright confirms it, but nothing that debunks it either, so I guess it's up to the player whether they're all related or not ;).


I figured it would have, it's beyond noticeable. And she is the only person in the series, as far as I'm aware, to have a hyphenated surname. Could just be a red herring, though.

Naroon wrote:Angela is a really unique and tragic character. Any actual human capable of empathizing at all with another human can't help but sympathize with her plight. What's truly scary about Angela's being called to the town is the fact that she's not really evil nor did she do anything that most people would view as outlandish. It was an extreme form of self-defense and retribution from a moral standpoint. The game then implies that the reason she is there and is being punished is because she herself believes she deserves this. This is even more tragic once you realize that this sort of psychological self-blaming is a real phenomenon present in rape victims; sometimes they will dissociate from the reality of what happened in various ways, one way of which is blaming themselves for it happening. I think Angela in the game says that her mother did nothing to prevent the abuse and even told Angela she deserved it (it's either in the game or in the novel, the latter of which is dubious as to whether or not it is canon by virtue of some minor discrepancies with the game if I remember correctly.)


Indeed. And what's even sadder is that the player is an entirely helpless bystander; there exist no choices you can make that would provide Angela with any kind of support or assistance. The futility of it all really adds to the whole psychological-horror package in my opinion, and it stays with you so there's always that 'What if?' thought.
It really does make one question the purpose of Silent Hill; If for an individual's benefit, then Angela wouldn't have been called there to begin with. But since she was, there's the suggestion of it being a place of pure torment. Even the police exhonorated Angela by concluding it to be a 'crime of passion', and since Thomas Orosco was a well-known abusive alcoholic, Angela disposing of him may have prevented harm to come to others in the future as well.
Naroon wrote:Astute observation there with the food symbolism. The first encounter is the only one I don't agree with though: I believe Eddie is vomiting because of the corpse we see hanging out of the fridge in that scene. James inquires about the corpse and how it got there, while Eddie vehemently denies that he had anything to do with it. At this point James has no idea about Eddie's true nature, but given the fact that Eddie later goes on an ax-crazy killing spree against the manifestations that he sees later on in the game, and it's quite possible Eddie was already killing manifestations before James even met him.
Basically with the scenes leading up to Eddie's boss fight, especially the cafeteria scene where we see a guy with his brains freshly blown out at a table, it becomes abundantly clear that Eddie was the one behind the rampant corpses in these areas. Take note in this scene that the corpse at the table is wearing clothes that look suspiciously similar to the ones James is wearing if you look at the macabre painting on the wall in that room.


I agree with you, he was absolutely puking due to the corpse in the fridge. I was referring to how I perceive James to have interpreted it.

With regards to Eddie's supposed killer rampage, one of the writers has confirmed three times that Eddie didn't kill anyone, and that the corpses are mere delusions. As for the Eddie-fight, James deliberately provoked him knowing that he would attack him. I've noticed James using the situation to his advantage several times throughout the game to 'excuse' himself for his behavior. Two examples;

At the point in the game when James arrives at the bowling alley, we already know that he is not too fond of Laura, yet he uses her as an excuse to fat-shame Eddie;

James: "Wait! Come back! Eddie! Let's go after her!"
Eddie: "Huh? Laura? But why...?"
James: "Laura? Is that her name?"

Eddie: "That's what she said."

James: "This town is full of monsters! How can you sit there and eat pizza!"

When he exits the bowling alley, it's suggested by his interaction with Maria that he wasn't planning on going after her;

James: "Did a little girl run out of here."
Maria: "Yeah, she was too fast for me! Aren't you gonna go after her!"

Then there's the meat locker encounter, and up until then James has behaved in a polite, supportive and understanding fashion when speaking to Eddie, but then the window of opportunity for James opens wide;

Eddie: "What does it look like? He always busted my balls. 'You fat disgusting piece of shit! You make me sick! Fat-ass, yer nothin' but a waste of skin. You're so ugly, even you're mama don't love you! Well maybe he was right. Maybe I am nothing but a fat, disgusting piece of shit. But ya know what? It doesn't matter if your smart, dumb, ugly, pretty...it's all the same once yer dead. And a corpse can't laugh. From now on, if anyone makes fun of me... I'll kill em. Just like that."

There's a momentary pause as Eddie turns around and is about to leave the room, then;

James: "Eddie, have you gone nuts?"

Seriously James?! Of all the things you could've said and not said, THAT is what you ended up with? Right after Eddie flat-out states for the FIRST time in the game that any future bullying will have dire consequences?
Naroon wrote:The Born From a Wish scenario is my favorite part of the game, lol. The music, the atmosphere, the mysteries unique to the scenario, it's all so perfectly crafted. There is enough backstory about Ernest that makes it seem he really is who he says he is, but at the same time, we still don't really know what he was in terms of his identity. Some used to posit over the idea that Ernest was a cult member of some sort, because of the fact that he was trying to get some of the key items for a specific ritual that can bring people back from the dead before he died. He is confined to his mansion, and outside of the mansion, there's the message that says "Beware of haunted mansion!" scrawled on the wall. There's also a corpse outside in a pool of blood, which may be Ernest's.


Is it possible that the wall-scrawl is referring to another place? Borley Haunted Mansion? Several of the paintings in the Baldwin mansion are also found in Borley Haunted Masion, for example. Has anyone, besides Maria, visited the Baldwin mansion, or even confirmed it's existence at the given location?

The whole thing just seems suspicious to me, could just be me being paranoid but.. still...

Naroon wrote:I don't believe the Order had anything to do with Maria's conception. This game doesn't feature any cult stuff outside of some optional ritual items you can pick up in James' scenario on a New Game Plus run, and the same items in Maria's scenario. Maria is indeed a manifestation, but she's unique because she seems to be sentient in spite of being crafted from James' psyche. Some even argue that Maria is a composite of not just what James wanted, but also partially a reincarnation of Mary herself.


I have to disagree with the cult stuff bit; There's also the newspaper article referrencing the murder of Billy and Miriam Locane at the hands of Walter Sullivan, and as we know too well already, his entire plight was that of cultish rituals. I think there's more stuff too but don't quote me on that one just yet, gonna have to go dig it up first. :)

Maria does indeed appear to be sentient and since she was given her own playable scenario divorced from James, it does appear as if she is sentient, if not completely but at least on some level.

Naroon wrote:Continuing with that train of thought, Ernest has a line of dialogue where he seemingly is about to outright inform Maria of the nature of her existence, before Maria cuts him off mid-sentence with a dismissive retort. After she leaves the mansion, she has an existential breakdown because it seems she is painfully self-aware of the true nature of her conception and purpose, and seems to be ready to kill herself, before "something" persuades her not to, and she then assumes the behavior of a creature of habit -- i.e. a manifestation -- programmed to seek out James and stay close to him no matter what. Thus she ends up waiting for him by the lake, seemingly knowing he was gonna run through that way at some point.


Convenient, isn't it? Just when you're about to be served something that could very well be the biggest revelation of them all... NOPE! :D

So, comparing the dialogue at the end of "Born from a Wish" with James' at Rosewater Park;

Born from a Wish:

The screen goes to black so there's no way to do visual comparison, all we have is dialogue;

James: "Mary?...No... You're not."
Maria: "Do I look like you girlfriend?"
Maria: "My name... is Maria."

James' scenario:

James: "Mary?...No... you're not."
Mary: "Do I look like your girlfriend?"
James: "No.... my late wife. I can't believe it... You could be her twin. Your face, your voice... Just your hair and clothes are different."
Mary: "My name... is Maria. I don't look like a ghost. Do I? See? Feel how warm I am."

It's different. Why?

Naroon wrote:Yeah it's something that fascinated me. There was a theory that Maria's identity was partially inspired by a dancer who was actually alive at some point, or something like that. It's odd because Maria spawns in that room, but it seems "Lady Maria" might have actually been a real fixture in the town at some point.

Awfully convenient considering that whole Madonna/whore polarity going on with Mary/Maria.

Naroon wrote:No idea. Probably buffalo herpes like 'what' suggested. But how Mary even contracted such a thing is another debacle in and of itself :p.


Giving it an educated guess, it wouldn't be something she contracted. It doesn't appear to be transmissible, or congenital/familial, which leaves only one option; sporadic mutation. I'm thinking autoimmune would be the best fit.

Naroon wrote:It's definitely interesting, but I don't really feel strongly either way about it. Vincent is a weirdo who doesn't seem to enjoy brushing his teeth much. Walter was all kinds of fucked up almost since his birth. Maybe weirdness runs in their family line just like the Sunderlands?


Well, genetic heredity is only a small piece of the 'puzzle'; Changes in gene expression plays a huge part, after all.
 
 
 
 
 
 

Neurotic

Posts: 38

Joined: Mar 05, 2016

Mary's Disease

Post by Neurotic on Tue Mar 08, 2016 6:53 pm

Ah! Remember one more example of cultist link in SH2, but need to do some work before getting to that part. I covered this in another thread, can't remember which, but it's worth repeating cause it's an epic mind-blowing experience! :D

After James/the player completely blew it with the Gallows incident and the two grand revelations about Maria and Angela has come to pass, you're shoved into another puzzle; "Free the innocent man!"

Seriously? You just went full Bella-Swandive on the previous one, and now you're gonna get yet another chance at wrongfully sentencing someone to death? This one is different, I realized, this one attempts to communicate something important.

Linkage first:

http://silenthill.wikia.com/wiki/Free_the_Innocent_Man

The solution to the first puzzle appears easy enough, but only on a superficial level. Notice how you're presented with presupposed jugments for the first three, and for the fourth one the 'evidence' of the kidnappers innocence is as follows; The kidnapped child was never found, therefore he is innocent.

It's absolutely ridiculous, yet it's the 'correct' answer. It doesn't clear the kidnapper of any conviction, but it's the right answer. It's utter shit, but then I noticed a pattern; the three puzzles that follows can be solved using the first one.

Verse one; Torched a house - Arson: Solution to the Normal mode puzzle.
Verse two; trickery and fraud - Counterfeiter: Solution to the Hard mode puzzle
Verse three; Man without his left hand - Thief: Solution to the final puzzle.

The Normal mode puzzle's innocent man is self-evident; The sheriff couldn't find the criminal, so he grabbed a random vagabond off the street and locked him up for a crime he had nothing to do with.

The Hard mode puzzle is a bit trickier; The innocent man is the narrator, but he was still executed for a crime he didn't commit, yet again the guilty one is let off the hook. He is easily identified by being the only one who wasn't scheduled for execution;

"The man who is always quietly smiling to himself said “I am happy for I will soon be with her.”"

The final puzzle is when bricks are shat, several revelations made here;

There are multiple crimes but only two people on trial, the guilty and the wrongfully accused;

"We may visit death upon the head of the sinner but to what avail?"

"You, hanging as you do, by your neck, unforgiven and cursed by all."

"Only one of them was innocent, but they knew not that."

"Sinning alone at the end of a rope, it is nothing less than a disgrace to us all."

The first puzzle also points out there being only two people, but it only becomes clear in the light of this last puzzle;

"There is only one here who is innocent."

And yet again the guilty walked, while the innocent was made to dangle.

The innocent one is the thief, but it is only self-evident when comparing it to third verse in the first puzzle, let's have a look;

"Even he cannot be forgiven, my friend without his left hand. And so his death bothers me not."

"But one of them was done without reason. It was done out of fear and a ripe imagination."

Done without reason refers to the fact that there wasn't even a crime to begin with. Done out of fear and ripe imagination points out the reason why he was strung up and left to dangle; They saw his missing left-hand, equated it to the old-fashioned corporal punishment of cutting a thief's hand(s) off, and thus executing an innocent man.

Then there's the one that walked, who is guilty of several crimes;

"The white bandages stained with crimson,
The remains upon the scorched black earth,
The whispered cries of the maiden.
They are but meaningless contract."

The final sentence informs us of there being only one perpretrator, guilty of several crimes. The verb form of 'Contract' is used here, which means to lessen in size, range or number. The rest identifies the crimes; Bodily injury, murder and arson.

The guilty was already mentioned in the earlier puzzle;

"The man who is always quietly smiling to himself said “I am happy for I will soon be with her.”"

It's Walter Sullivan. He is the one who believes he will be reunited with his mother when completing the ritual of the 21 Sacraments. Remember the newspaper article found in the garbage chute in "Silent Hill 2" and Joseph's suspicion that Walter was still alive, and that the man that was executed was someone else?

""The police announced today that Walter Sullivan, who was arrested on the 18th of this month for the brutal murder of Billy Locane his sister Miriam, committed suicide in his jail cell early on the morning of the 22nd. According to the police statement, Sullivan used a soup spoon to stab himself in the neck, severing his carotid artery. By the time the guard discovered him, Sullivan was dead from blood loss, the spoon buried two inches in his neck.

An old schoolmate of Walter Sullivan's from his hometown of Pleasant River said "He didn't look like the type of guy who would kill kids.
But I do remember that just before they arrested him he was blurting out all sorts of strange stuff like 'He's trying to kill me. He's trying to punish me. The monster... the red devil. Forgive me. I did it, but it wasn't me!'.
The schoolmate then added 'I guess now that I think of it, he was kinda crazy'."

And finally, here he is identified in the last puzzle;

"The bloodstains remaining are proof of their guilt.
Trodden upon and thus created,
they are paths to Hell or the Void."

From "Descent of the Holy Mother - The 21 Sacraments";
"From the Darkness and Void, bring forth Gloom, and gird thyself with Despair for the Giver of Wisdom."

His crimes;

Bodily injury and murder: All of his victims.

Arson: Wish House Orphanage, the immolation of Jasper Gein.

With all of that out of the way, try reading the first puzzle again but this time, read it in a mocking/condescending tone.
 
 
 
 
 
 

Naroon

Member

User avatar

Pillman's got a gun!

Posts: 5325

Joined: Mar 29, 2011

Location: United States

Mary's Disease

Post by Naroon on Tue Mar 08, 2016 10:16 pm

Indeed. And what's even sadder is that the player is an entirely helpless bystander; there exist no choices you can make that would provide Angela with any kind of support or assistance. The futility of it all really adds to the whole psychological-horror package in my opinion, and it stays with you so there's always that 'What if?' thought.
It really does make one question the purpose of Silent Hill; If for an individual's benefit, then Angela wouldn't have been called there to begin with. But since she was, there's the suggestion of it being a place of pure torment. Even the police exhonorated Angela by concluding it to be a 'crime of passion', and since Thomas Orosco was a well-known abusive alcoholic, Angela disposing of him may have prevented harm to come to others in the future as well.


Yep. It's sad because it seems the town knows that Angela won't make it out alive before her story even ends, same with Eddie. There's one point in the prison section I think where James comes across the weird little yard with some graves dug in it. There are three gravestones sitting side-by-side, one of which is a wide-open bottomless pit that James has to jump down to continue his journey. I believe this one was marked with James' name, though I don't remember. The next two are marked with Angela and Eddie's names, but the graves are already covered up with tombstones on them, implying that due to the immense psychological damage they've all received, and their overwhelmingly negative mental states, there's zero chance of them coming out.

It seems at that point in the game, the town has decided that James was the only one of the trio who still "had a chance" at getting out, even though most of the endings are downer endings and in one of them he even goes along with committing suicide despite telling Angela earlier he'd never do such a thing.

Seriously James?! Of all the things you could've said and not said, THAT is what you ended up with? Right after Eddie flat-out states for the FIRST time in the game that any future bullying will have dire consequences?


Yeah, this is one of the game's most inadvertently hilarious scenes lol. Eddie goes on this off-the-walls monologue detailing his too-far-gone mental state and James comes to the brilliant conclusion that the only logical course of action is to insult the guy. NICE ONE JAMES! Then he has the gall to be sad after he kills Eddie, even if it were in self-defense.

Is it possible that the wall-scrawl is referring to another place? Borley Haunted Mansion? Several of the paintings in the Baldwin mansion are also found in Borley Haunted Masion, for example. Has anyone, besides Maria, visited the Baldwin mansion, or even confirmed it's existence at the given location?

The whole thing just seems suspicious to me, could just be me being paranoid but.. still...


I don't think it's a reference to the Borley mansion, since that would've been too obscure a reference since that mansion wasn't really featured until the next game. No one else ever made any mention of the Baldwin mansion, it's just this random mansion that Maria, for whatever reason, winds up going to on her path. It seems the town wanted her to go there and interact with Ernest for some reason. Given that we never get to see what the town looks like in the normal real world, at least not that particular area, we've no way of verifying that the mansion is a real place or not, but most likely it was.

I have to disagree with the cult stuff bit; There's also the newspaper article referrencing the murder of Billy and Miriam Locane at the hands of Walter Sullivan, and as we know too well already, his entire plight was that of cultish rituals. I think there's more stuff too but don't quote me on that one just yet, gonna have to go dig it up first.


I wasn't trying to say there wasn't more cult stuff in the game, just that the cult itself wasn't the progenitor of James' journey as was the case in the first and third games among others ;). Besides the key items, there are several articles that reference cult stuff, as well as some pictures and paintings sprawled throughout the Historical Society and the prison that is inexplicably located beneath it. One of the endings has James attempting a cult ritual with unknown results. There's also the mention of the Little Baroness which, while not explicitly a cult doing, still has implications of foul play behind it.

It's different. Why?


Probably just for narrative flow reasons lol. The game recommends that players play BFaW after the main story, so I guess they expected players to already know how that conversation really played out.

As for your analysis of the puzzles, HOLY SHIT that was amazing. I don't think I've ever seen anyone else make that connection before, and I know I never made it because I've never played through on any higher puzzle difficulty than 'Normal'. Ha -- that truly deserves a standing ovation, seriously. A++
Image
 
 
 
 
 

Otherworld

Member

User avatar

I'm going to town either way ...

Posts: 6391

Joined: Oct 11, 2013

Location: Canada

Mary's Disease

Post by Otherworld on Wed Mar 09, 2016 11:05 am

Naroon wrote:I wasn't trying to say there wasn't more cult stuff in the game, just that the cult itself wasn't the progenitor of James' journey as was the case in the first and third games among others ;). Besides the key items, there are several articles that reference cult stuff, as well as some pictures and paintings sprawled throughout the Historical Society and the prison that is inexplicably located beneath it. One of the endings has James attempting a cult ritual with unknown results. There's also the mention of the Little Baroness which, while not explicitly a cult doing, still has implications of foul play behind it.


Let's not forget the look of PH himself.

Image
Image
 
 
 
 
 

Lonesome Road

Posts: 7

Joined: Feb 29, 2016

Mary's Disease

Post by Lonesome Road on Fri Mar 25, 2016 1:21 pm

I always assumed that it is Cancer by the way she looks. Never gave it any other thought than that.
 
 
 
 
 
 

Panko1

Member

User avatar

I'm watching you. Who's watching me?

Posts: 147

Joined: Feb 05, 2013

Mary's Disease

Post by Panko1 on Sat Mar 26, 2016 5:53 am

Angela Orosco had senses of guilt related to her own rape. Maybe James guilt could be related with his wife rape as well. Mary's supposed rape could have been hinted in the same way Angela has witnessed/experienced her own traumatic rape with her father/brother in the game through Abstract Daddy. Which means that the Pyramid Head ''raping incident'' in Woodside/Blue Creek apartments that James witnessed was not the "only area in the game where we see something like this happening" as vote4wsullivan suggested. And since Pyramid Head is not linked with Angela then whose rape would that be?

Pyramid Head symbolizes James's guilt for Mary's death. So James could indeed feel guilty for not protecting Mary's supposed rape that resulted in the disease that caused her death. Pyramid Head could be trying to make James remember of that. People say that James's guilt was for suffocating his wife with the pillow, but he did that to end the pain from the incurable disease that was already killing her. James guilt was probably for letting his wife get infected by that damn disease. Maybe just maybe that damn disease came from a damn cult from a damn town called Silent Hill but who knows?
 
 
 
 
 

Otherworld

Member

User avatar

I'm going to town either way ...

Posts: 6391

Joined: Oct 11, 2013

Location: Canada

Mary's Disease

Post by Otherworld on Sat Mar 26, 2016 9:14 am

I just do not see any evidence to support that theory. Since sex is one of the most prevalent themes throughout the game I am sure we'd be given some concrete evidence to substantiate this theory.
Image
 
 
 
 
 

Panko1

Member

User avatar

I'm watching you. Who's watching me?

Posts: 147

Joined: Feb 05, 2013

Mary's Disease

Post by Panko1 on Sat Mar 26, 2016 6:35 pm

Not an evidence, just a hint to help explain someone's else theory. Sex is indeed part of what we see through out the game due to James' sexual frustration but there's also Angela who sees sex in her own way. When Angela see rape as Abstract Daddy is all because of her father or brother. So James would see rape as Pyramid Head because of who? Yes James is a sexual frustrated person but not enough to ever wanting to rape someone as Pyramid Head suggests. What would Pyramid Head try to remember James of? What guilt?

If you ask me about what disease is that, I have no idea, but I'm sure is not any disease we know of. So don't try to compare with cancer or AIDS. When James said "damn disease" maybe he meant a curse, and as Silent Hill is usually the source of all curses, he could be there looking for the actual cause from that curse.

And how did she got infected by that disease or curse? Was it when someone coughed at her? Or was it sexual intercourse? Was it related to a cult? And since sex and cult is the main theme through out the game and is also exactly what Pyramid Head represents towards James. As Pyramid Head tries to make James feel guilty through cult and sex. So what ever Mary got inside her could relate to a sexual intercourse in a Silent Hill cult. This would explain why she did not easily infect any one with her "damn disease" not even her own husband.
 
 
 
 
 

jam6i

Member

User avatar

Posts: 2337

Joined: Sep 28, 2011

Mary's Disease

Post by jam6i on Sat Mar 26, 2016 9:39 pm

Mary wasn't raped.

Shortest post ever.
There was a SIGNATURE here. It's gone now.
 
 
 
 
 

Panko1

Member

User avatar

I'm watching you. Who's watching me?

Posts: 147

Joined: Feb 05, 2013

Mary's Disease

Post by Panko1 on Sun Mar 27, 2016 2:56 pm

Maybe (shortest reply ever). I just want to know why would Pyramid Head rape those Mannequins in front of James, because that old excuse "to remind when he asphyxiated Mary with the pillow" simply does not connect. We know that James is sexually repressed but that does not mean he is a rapist. So what was PH trying to show besides Mary's rape? Here are a few more theories for you all disagree with.
silenthill.wikia.com/wiki/Mary_Shepherd-Sunderland wrote:It is never explicitly stated what disease Mary had or how she obtained it. It was known to cause lumps on her skin and hair loss. It has been speculated to be a form of cancer or leprosy. Guy Cihi believes it to be melanoma. Silent Hill has had a history of illness, as Brookhaven Hospital was built in response to epidemics. It is possible that it is the same disease. It is likely that Mary obtained her disease before or during her vacation in Silent Hill as she is shown coughing in Lakeview Hotel. One supernatural theory is that Silent Hill cursed her. Another theory is that she lingered beside Toluca Lake too long which may have had contaminated water or mist due to the apparent 67 people who died of illness and "sleep beneath the lake". James states that he and Mary once stared at the water of Toluca Lake for an entire day.
 
 
 
 
 

firecrest

Member

Posts: 214

Joined: Sep 27, 2007

Mary's Disease

Post by firecrest on Sun Mar 27, 2016 8:20 pm

I think Angela probably put it best when she suggests that James is only after one thing. The term "rape" implies forced sexual intercourse without consent, but in the context of the story, I think it's more about a lack of love. PH is killing those monsters in such a way to remind James that a part of him saw Mary as nothing more than an object of sexual desire. When she can no longer relieve him of such desires, he wants Mary to die so that he can find someone else as Angela suggests.

The community usually focuses on the action itself of PH against the monsters, but it's interesting to take notice of what happens afterwards: PH has his way and then he just kind of casts them aside and then presumably leaves to get to the next monster. It's clear that he doesn't care one bit about the monsters that he's just killed. Deep down, not only is James feeling guilty for killing Mary, but also he feels bothered that perhaps he didn't love Mary either.
 
 
 
 
 
 

Rodox_Head

Member

User avatar

Just here for the chit-chat

Posts: 1267

Joined: Jan 13, 2013

Mary's Disease

Post by Rodox_Head on Mon Mar 28, 2016 5:31 am

Panko1 wrote: I just want to know why would Pyramid Head rape those Mannequins in front of James


He didn't.
Image
"Well I like to know what I'm doing when I do it, and I do what I'm doing 'cause I don't know what to do when I'm not doing it"
 
 
 
PreviousNext


Return to Silent Hill 2



Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests