Mary & James's stay in Silent Hill

[Augophthalmoses]

I was actually referring to what you said at the bottom. And she's never made any outright threats to kill herself. Again, you're talking about somebody who is placed on her death bed at such an unexpected time. Having difficulty coping with it isn't exactly a case of extreme mental problem, buddy.

And several points of definitive proof have already been posted several times in both topics that disprove this theory, but again what can a person possibly do when you can keep going "no, no, no, that doesn't disprove my theory.

If you're unable to recognize that there are several key factors in the plot that solidify that she didn't stay there (as well as common sense) that's not a problem on my part. And I just because I haven't broken out the crayons yet doesn't I haven't listed plenty of reasons why this theory is invalid. Because the vast majority of the responses shooting down this theory are ones that anybody can look up upon playing the game and paying attention to the story, man.

So how long do you intend to keep this gimmick up? I mean it's one thing for you to merely disagree with somebody. It's an entirely different scenario when you intentionally ignoring a lot of the retorts given to you and jumping the gun declaring that she may have mental complications for being depressed (when she's dying mind you) and use that as a vehicle to pilot the whole Brookhaven nonsense. That may be your definition of a real debate but not so much elsewhere.

And if you don't want to be labeled a troll stop acting like one. Simple dilemma demands simple solution.

[what]

"Versimilitudo can prove this theory objectively wrong beyond any doubt, and this is why:"__________________

Come on.

You can do it. Can't you?

Before you answer, you might want to make sure you know what "objective" means. Allow me to help you:

not influenced by personal feelings, interpretations, or prejudice; based on facts; unbiased: an objective opinion.

[Augophthalmoses]

Ignoring all the no brainer points brought up your theory doesn't exactly amount to it not being disproven, champ. Try harder.

[what]

So, I guess that's an admission that you can't?

Don't let me down. You've been talking such a big game all night.

[Augophthalmoses]

I find your definition of "admission" to be rather curious. But you know what? What the hell. I can "admit" that "nobody disproved your theory" if being right is so important you dismiss every little logical response made against the theory.

Are you going to be ok now?

[what]

As curious as your insistence on evading the question?

I'm not going to stop badgering you on this. If you're going to call me a troll, that's cool. I may as well earn the title, right?

And, no, that's not good enough. I want you to either give me some conclusive, objective proof that the theory cannot possibly be right, or admit that none exists. Nothing else will satisfy me.

[Augophthalmoses]

You're either a troll or pretty oblivious to a lot of stuff in the game's story that seems to be rather common sense to some people here. I'd much rather go with troll and not assume that you're a moron because I can tell from your posting that you're not.

[what]

You have a very high evasion stat.

Come on, V. Proof. Let's have it. Common sense can be as incorrect as it can be subjective. Let's see something set in stone.

Alternatively, I will accept something along the lines of "We agree to disagree, because both viewpoints are valid", because it's all you can honestly give me and it's all I really want. It won't even make you look bad, unless you tack on some sulky, smartass codicil like "if that makes you think you're right". Because, this was never about right or wrong until you made it that way.

What do you say?

[Augophthalmoses]

If you were truly looking for a real debate you wouldn't be dismissing every single thing brought up against this theory in such a hairbrained manner. Because a lot of the responses you make to a lot of points (James mentally blocked out Mary staying at Brookhaven? Gimme a break) make it pretty clear there's no incentive in responding to you since you're not being serious. Best just to ignore any ramblings from you altogether from this point forward since you're clearly the type who insists on trying to be the center of attention regardless of how silly you need to act in order to obtain it.

There's a fine line between backing out of a debate due to lack of an argument and throwing your hands up when you keep sticking your fingers in your ears to everything that's said. Given how jumping the gun seems to be a staple of your modus operandi I'll assume the next post will have some sort of gloating about how you obtained your precious victory or whatever. I'm a nice guy so why not just say "you won" if you really need to hear those words so much. Because of the two of us you seem to be the one making such a big fuss over it.

[what]

Wait, wait. What you just gave me was a self-serving, jerkass rant, and a well-articulated one at that, but what I was actually looking for was objective proof to support your claim, as though you've repeatedly stated such proof exists, you seem reluctant to show it to anybody. I do understand how you might have confused the two, though.

Try again! Every failure is one step closer to success.

[Augophthalmoses]

I had to stop reading when you tried to call somebody a twelve year old when you're the guy disregarding every single piece of information that happens break your little theory apart. You simply don't post goofy shit like that, man.

I know, I know it's entirely my fault that you're unable to acknowledge specific events in the game that happen to disprove the theory.

[Venithil]

I was seriously interested in this thread, but now it seems to be 3 pages of trollfight with some addons from Xuchilbara instead of a discussion.

I'm not joking around, people, you both seem so stuck-up and intend on just throwing meat at each other all along the thread that it's not even funny.

I don't have a fully made opinion about whethere Mary stayed in the Brookhaven Hospital at any point in her life. It's never really pointed out in the game, nor it is denied. All we have is suspicions and hints that she might - AND logic that points out she didn't. If I were to categorize...


Hints / weak evidence that Mary stayed there :
- Laura goes straight to Brookhaven Hospital. She does not, at any point, consider not checking out a hospital nor does she choose any other hospital than Brookhaven. She seems pretty sure she could find Mary or any information about Mary in there. Now, Laura is just a child, but she is pretty intelligent. You might say there is no point in moving Mary to a mental hospital in Silent Hill, but Mary had no idea she'd ever get the chance to go back home nor was she completely sure when she is going to die. She might have actually asked to be moved by the same logic James had - to die in a place of memories.

- James never mentions anything about her staying in Brookhaven, but this may be in fact part of his memory block. Why? Because Mary probably wasn't in that hospital for a long time. He might have NEVER visited her there before her return home. It is also possible that the discussion James remembers at the last moments of the game is the only one they shared in Brookhaven, which would make sense - he remembers it at the end BECAUSE IT WAS BLOCKED THE WHOLE TIME, and James only remembered it at the end because it was directly tied to him killing Mary.

-

REVEAL SPOILER

Maria feels sick in the Brookhaven hospital, and she dies there. Given how stuffed the series are with symbolism, this may mean something. I'm pretty sure Mary didn't feel all vibrant and healthy during her possible stay there.

- The lady with two rings. As it was James that

REVEAL SPOILER

terminated their marriage

, James' wedding ring would be symbolized by something with a skull (Or Mary's would, because she was dead). Am I the only one that ever saw her and her goddamn rings as something tied to marriage and wedding rings?



Strong suggestions Mary stayed in Brookhaven :
- When you read Mary's letter, one thing is certain - it is written FROM Silent Hill and BEFORE she returned home to her loving husband

REVEAL SPOILER

who was at the time pondering whether to shoot her, drown her in the bath, or kill her in a pillow fight

. She was sick and was told by a *doctor* that she will die soon and can return home for a short stay. It doesn't take a genius to realize that she could be writing from a HOSPITAL. Don't tell me you believe it was Alchemilla.

- Things happen in Brookhaven. The vision we see in a cutscene of Mary being pushed by doctors, the unexplicable sounds in one of the rooms, fight against monsters that symbolize Mary the most out of all in the game, the oversexualization of nurses (James was a loving husband, but after such a long time it would make sense that he saw women as sexual prey, but mostly stayed at home drinking. Brookhaven would be one of the last places he could see SO MANY women before he killed Mary).

- The diary on the roof is written in such a way that it might as well literarily BE Mary's. Now, it would make physical sense if her actual diary was in the hospital and then was found in the hospital byu James, wouldn't it?

- Otherworld. We are only rarely subjected to Otherworld in Silent Hill 2, and only twice it can be recognized as James' version of the Otherworld (thrice if you count the Labyrinth as such). So, we have Brookhaven, the town after Brookhaven, the Labyrinth, and the Lakeview Hotel. But, why Brookhaven? If this was just a random hospital with no relation to James or Mary whatsoever, why invite the hellish nightmare of the Otherworld to James' mind there for the first time?

- Pyramid Head. He appears twice (or two Pyramid Heads appear there) just to help James... explore the hospital, and then to kill Maria just so James could truly relive Mary's death for the first time. He could only be there after Maria or because it was a place of significance to James he had to *force* him to remember.
- If James indeed had the last heard conversation with Mary in the Brookhaven Hospital, that could be the point where he decided to kill her, thus easing his burden and... letting Pyramid Head switch to a spear instead of dragging his badass knife along. The ride through the basement would symbolize the emotional rush Mr. Sunderland felt while he carried out his plan (kill Mary before anything goes wrong or you talk yourself out of it, or kill Mary and go to Silent Hill as fast as possible before the cops can find you).

- James couldn't progress in his journey through Silent Hill without visiting the hospital, and as such, the town's will (or James' psyche) deemed it important that he visited it.



Logic/evidence against Mary staying in Brookhaven :
- Laura could have just searched randomly.

- James never mentions it.

- James sees the Rosewater Park as important to him and Mary. Maria sees fit to tell him that the Lakeview Hotel could be their special place. But the only normal and totally random person in Silent Hill, Laura, is the only one to lead him to Brookhaven Hospital.

- Just because Brookhaven symbolizes Mary's sickness doesn't mean it was the one where she stayed in. It just happened to fit in, the only thing along the way to give James' a hint from the town.

- The place does NOT switch to Otherworld because of James' memories or importance of the place, it switches to Otherworld because Laura forces James to confront the fact that Mary did not die three years ago.

- It just doesn't fit in the timeline of the series and the town itself. If Brookhaven was the last hospital Mary stayed in, she would've stayed there probably only a week or two so before the start of the game. Meaning not only it would have happened a lot after Harry's visit, which turns the weirdness and darkness of the town up to the next level, the town would only have a week to switch from a normal place full of happy memories and beautiful peacefulness Mary was so fond of into a freakish nightmare that could drag three people to Hell and project poor little Maria amongst a bunch of monsters.

[ERROR]

Your last point about the timeline doesn't make sense. SILENT HILL 2 happens over a decade after SILENT HILL, so James and Mary vacationed in Silent Hill nine years after Harry's ordeal, meaning the town is normal to those without darkness in their hearts. The town isn't abandoned, and it isn't to the casual visitor a breeding ground for monsters.

>specific events in the game that happen to disprove the theory.<
You have yet to provide any evidence of these events disproving my theory. All you've said is it can't possibly be true, which, as what has repeatedly written, is not evidence. It's conjecture. I have provided evidence to support my theory. All you have done is say it isn't evidence.

[Venithil]

Your last point about the timeline doesn't make sense. SILENT HILL 2 happens over a decade after SILENT HILL, so James and Mary vacationed in Silent Hill nine years after Harry's ordeal, meaning the town is normal to those without darkness in their hearts. The town isn't abandoned, and it isn't to the casual visitor a breeding ground for monsters.

It is certainly possible James' and Mary's first visit to Silent Hill was already after Harry visited it, but the area in SH2 is most likely nearly empty when James comes around. The hotel is burned, that much we know, but the "normal" person, Laura, never mentions meeting anybody else in the entire town. In the "happy" endings, James also abandons a largely empty town. In the Born from a Wish scenario, Maria mentions that "everybody disappeared", meaning there were likely people there once, but no more (of course, the truthfulness of those words may change depending on how you see Maria).

Its hard to say how the town works for "normal" people since we never explore it as a "normal" person, but there's nothing pointing out to conclusion that people live in the parts of town explored, but if they did and Mary stayed at the Brookhaven hospital in her last weeks/months of life, that would make them disappear in a single week or so.

[NarooN]

...AND NEXT TIEM, ON SIRENT HIRRU DEHBAETS!...

This is generally why I never participate in SH debates. Most of them arise over really fucking stupid theories which are just people grasping at straws to discuss something new since everything that can possibly be discussed about a 500-year old game has been done to death already. Oh well.

[what]

I wondered if I would regret descending to his level after some time to cool off.

Maybe I do... but only a little.

[Ratiocinator]

Holy shit there are a lot of animated GIF and SH2 savepoint avatars in this thread.

If you feel you're not getting anywhere with the other person in relation to the topic of this thread, best to be the bigger man and leave it at that. Hell, so long as you keep the posts relevant you can do what you want, but if frustration is taking over and is egging on name-calling best dial it back and let it cool down.

[Augophthalmoses]

I wondered if I would regret descending to his level after some time to cool off.

Maybe I do... but only a little.

Dude, your shtick is easier to see through than a freshly washed window. It has nothing to do with you merely disagreeing. It's that you keep yammering on about proof, proof, proof yet ignore every single thing brought up in this topic whilst sitting there wondering why you get called a troll. I mean really? You honestly can't figure it out? You complain about lack of a compelling argument yet upon reading all the posts in this topic from people on both sides of the debate you're noticeably the one person who is giving the least amount of compelling arguments most of them revolving around "no, no, that doesn't disprove my theory". The few times have responded it's something that makes even less sense such as James mentally blocking out the fact Mary stayed there. Why would this happen? How he be able to recall her having a disease yet forget her staying at the hospital? It still doesn't prove anything about this theory. It's still speculation and you seem to get upset every time I mention despite it being the stone cold truth. You've already established with your own retorts that you don't care in the least about bringing forth a legitimate argument. Hence, there's no real incentive to further bother arguing this theory with you outside of the amusement in seeing your squirrely projection attempts.

This basically sums up what you're doing:



As for the poster who brought up the diary on the roof: I don't see how it relates to Mary. If anything it seems to relate more to James. Reading it shows us how the patient expresses agony with the treatment the doctors are giving him and the patient's desire to break free. Seeing as how we know about James' own internal mental struggle (as well as the diary being one of the triggers for the In Water ending) it seems pretty clear the diary is intended to be a subtle jab towards him. Just like the patient list elsewhere in the hospital featuring three patients...all of whom feature first names starting with J.

[what]

Dude, your shtick is easier to see through than a freshly washed window. It has nothing to do with you merely disagreeing. It's that you keep yammering on about proof, proof, proof yet ignore every single thing brought up in this topic whilst sitting there wondering why you get called a troll. I mean really? You honestly can't figure it out? You complain about lack of a compelling argument yet upon reading all the posts in this topic from people on both sides of the debate you're noticeably the one person who is giving the least amount of compelling arguments most of them revolving around "no, no, that doesn't disprove my theory".

And, not a single one does disprove a theory (which isn't mine). The thing you never seemed to understand (in spite of my stating it multiple times) is that I don't have to prove that it's correct. The only thing the theory has to do is exist without contradicting anything factual. Most people can understand that.

You, on the other hand, insisted right from the start that that the theory was wrong, and you were snide and condescending about it, as if thinking about things beyond face value was a crime. That's why I pressed you so hard to prove that the theory wasn't valid, using more than just your interpretation of the evidence, and you never even tried. Once you made the assertion that the theory was wrong, the burden of proof was on you to show that it was wrong. All you managed to do was show that you didn't agree with it, and on several occasions, you made it plain that you were arguing the idea of the theory without knowing the facts issued to support it, because you never bothered to read everything the theory had to say. The number of times I had to point out that the theory addressed things you were trying to say is proof of that.

What happened here is that you confuse your ideas and beliefs for factual evidence, assuming that your personal concept of 'common sense' is of equal value to objective proof, and trying to cover up your clearly incomplete understanding with bluster and condescension.

The few times have responded it's something that makes even less sense such as James mentally blocking out the fact Mary stayed there. Why would this happen? How he be able to recall her having a disease yet forget her staying at the hospital?

A question I've already answered. But, what's one more.

Why it would happen is simple: His new version of events erases everything that has happened in the last three years. Believing that Mary died three years ago means that anything which contradicts this version of events simply does not exist for the man in his deluded. state. Why is he still able to remember she had a disease? That answer is also simple: the disease came along before that cut-off date. She had the disease longer than three years (the three year mark is only when the disease was pronounced incurable), hence, her having it does not contradict his invented history.

Why this sounds so hard to believe, I don't understand. He has blocked out things far more drastic than her potential short-term stay at Brookhaven. After all, he made himself forget that he killed her. He also forgot that he came to town intending to pull the string on himself. For that matter, he had to be reminded that the Lakeview Hotel was the likeliest location for Ghost Mary to be awaiting him. All he could come up with was the park.

If you want to believe none of these things are significant, that's your call. If you personally believe that it doesn't work, well, what can I do about it? But, if you think your inability to accept it is proof that it can't work, that's when you're plainly wrong.

It still doesn't prove anything about this theory. It's still speculation and you seem to get upset every time I mention despite it being the stone cold truth.

Not true at all. I have freely admitted that it is speculation and that it lacks the proof necessary to call it truth. I've never asserted anything besides that. I have even admitted that believing it doesn't happen is a valid viewpoint, on the basis that the theory cannot be conclusively proven. What gets me 'upset' is your dismissal of the theory, not even on the grounds of your lack of imagination, but because your unremitting insistence that the theory is wrong and without merit, your claims of having 'disproved' it. All you gave were reasons you personally could not accept it. You did not, even once, show anything which actually contradicts the theory...

I'll try it once more: Prove that Mary definitely did not stay at Brookhaven. Prove that the scenario is impossible. Or, accept it as a theory you simply disagree with. As I said some time back, the latter is all I really wanted to get out of you. Do everybody else in this thread a favor and don't bother responding to this post unless you can address this. I don't give a rat's ass about whatever objections you have to the theory, or to me. I just want to see you finally present your case, assuming one exists to present.

And, if you could do it without backhanded remarks, that would be cool. We both made this less than civil and we can both make the effort to bring it back.

[Augophthalmoses]

And you been given plenty of examples by several people that demonstrate why this theory is wrong so the "burden of proof is on you" is right out the window. Trying to pretend you haven't gotten the answers you want is pointless as they are up in this topic. It goes both ways: the burden of proof is on you to tell us why this blatantly impossible theory is valid. You have done so and anybody with enough common sense realizes there's more evidence detailing Mary never stayed there as there is the other way around.

Again, it's not anybody else's fault if you keep refusing to acknowledge everything that's given to you. There's only so much people can do if you're just ignore any response that disproves it.