Xuchilbara

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Mary & James's stay in Silent Hill

Post by Xuchilbara on Tue Jul 19, 2011 9:14 pm

Ok so I see there's a huge debate over the Mary at Brookhaven theory. So I decided after much thought it deserves a thread of it's own.

The original thread is here, made by ERROR.

Counter arguments by me.

What is the evidence for it? I'd like to hear from the people who believe it.

I can come up with evidence against it, but I'd also love to hear these folks.
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Mary & James's stay in Silent Hill

Post by Augophthalmoses on Tue Jul 19, 2011 9:16 pm

Honestly, there's really not much to debate. The theory has no backing with all the "evidence" being nothing but speculation. But for some Mary staying at Brookhaven somehow brings an extra bit of quality to the story so it will be apparently argued regardless.
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Mary & James's stay in Silent Hill

Post by Xuchilbara on Tue Jul 19, 2011 9:17 pm

I want more than "You're wrong." I am looking for people to present their evidence and interpretation of such. love a good Silent Hill debate and this one has been circulating for sometime in the community.

The Apartments do not have any great meaning, no. They are mostly a vehicle to get James to encounter many of the important characters. However, there is a point to going through, even if it's merely to use them to get somewhere else. Brookhaven, assuming that Mary has no involvement, is not a bridge to anywhere, nor does it serve as a character vehicle. It ends up just being a long distraction that doesn't really advance the main plot and could have been skipped.


I think it has to do with his state of mind.
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Mary & James's stay in Silent Hill

Post by Augophthalmoses on Tue Jul 19, 2011 9:24 pm

More than you're wrong? Oh, you got it.

1. All Mary's talks to Laura about wishing to return to Silent Hill wouldn't make sense upon being in Silent Hill.
2. Brookhaven is a hospital focused on mental treatment.
3. Moving Mary to a separate hospital just to cope with depression wouldn't make any sense and would just be far too inconvenient. Plenty of people experience grief and sorrow in hospitals upon their death bed. Hospital already would (and should) know how to cope with such measures without suggesting relocation to a separate hospital.
4. James doesn't say anything at all in the game about her staying in Brookhaven. You would think he'd give some remark about the subject.

That's already more than enough.
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Mary & James's stay in Silent Hill

Post by what on Tue Jul 19, 2011 9:25 pm

If I am to represent the supporting view, I'm not really sure what I'm supposed to do. The evidence is presented in the thread, as well as the reasoning leading to each explanation, and I find the theory agreeable, overall. All I'd do in presenting evidence is restating what ERROR already wrote down.

Being that the case for is already made, I think it is up to those who disagree to address the points and disprove them, if this is possible.

I think it has to do with his state of mind.


The entire game has to do with his state of mind. If that's all there is to Brookhaven, it doesn't really have a point.

1. All Mary's talks to Laura about wishing to return to Silent Hill wouldn't make sense upon being in Silent Hill.


You're right, it wouldn't make sense if she were already in Silent Hill, but I've pointed out three times now that it doesn't happen that way and surely you couldn't have missed all three?

2. Brookhaven is a hospital focused on mental treatment.


I don't recall the theory ever stating otherwise.

3. Moving Mary to a separate hospital just to cope with depression wouldn't make any sense and would just be far too inconvenient. Plenty of people experience grief and sorrow in hospitals upon their death bed. Hospital already would (and should) know how to cope with such measures without suggesting relocation to a separate hospital.


This not only disproves nothing, it proves that you haven't read enough to understand why she would have gone there. Even though I spelled it out already, eliminating the need to go to the actual theory.

Besides, just because something doesn't 'make sense', even assuming you weren't going on incomplete information, is not proof against anything, either. That's just you speculating. It's not based on anything except what you believe should happen in this scenario.

4. James doesn't say anything at all in the game about her staying in Brookhaven. You would think he'd give some remark about the subject.


Proving a whole lot of nothing, unless absence of evidence has now become recognized as evidence and I missed the memo?
Last edited by what on Tue Jul 19, 2011 9:35 pm.
 
 
 
 
 
 

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Mary & James's stay in Silent Hill

Post by Augophthalmoses on Tue Jul 19, 2011 9:30 pm

Thing is the supposed evidence is nothing more than speculation which ultimately proves nothing. Several examples showing why this theory doesn't hold ground have already been stated and they have been ignored.

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Mary & James's stay in Silent Hill

Post by Xuchilbara on Tue Jul 19, 2011 9:32 pm

Verisimilitudo wrote:More than you're wrong? Oh, you got it.

1. All Mary's talks to Laura about wishing to return to Silent Hill wouldn't make sense upon being in Silent Hill.


Agreed there is nothing in the game about her being sick in SH.

2. Brookhaven is a hospital focused on mental treatment.


However, up until the 1970's terminal people were put in mental hospitals. If ERROR's timeline is correct though, then this practice does not occur during Mary's illness. I doubt that she was given the amount of support there is now for those who are terminal that do not involve those types of stays.

3. Moving Mary to a separate hospital just to cope with depression wouldn't make any sense and would just be far too inconvenient. Plenty of people experience grief and sorrow in hospitals upon their death bed. Hospital already would (and should) know how to cope with such measures without suggesting relocation to a separate hospital.


It would make sense if she were about to die though. However this is doubtful, most people would want to die at home with their loved ones. Even if she loves SH I question if she loves it that much.

4. James doesn't say anything at all in the game about her staying in Brookhaven. You would think he'd give some remark about the subject.

That's already more than enough.


That's the biggest problem. The only thing that could relate to Mary is his optional comment about Maria taking pills, but there's no memos or physical evidence otherwise that can be conclusive about Mary staying there.

The other problem is her full letter to James before she died:
The doctor came today.
He told me I could go
home for a short stay.

It's not that I'm getting better.
It's just that this may be
my last chance...


I think you know what I mean...

Even so, I'm glad to be coming
home. I've missed you terribly.

But I'm afraid James.
I'm afraid you don't really
want me to come home.
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Mary & James's stay in Silent Hill

Post by Augophthalmoses on Tue Jul 19, 2011 9:39 pm

Besides, we know she experienced some quarrels with James being angry and depressed, but that's not enough reason (let alone conclusive evidence) to jump the gun and declare that she was mentally unstable enough to be moved to a Brookhaven. It's just screams of silliness.
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Mary & James's stay in Silent Hill

Post by Princess Kenny on Tue Jul 19, 2011 9:40 pm

I've never believed in Mary being at brookhaven.

Verisimilitudo wrote:1. All Mary's talks to Laura about wishing to return to Silent Hill wouldn't make sense upon being in Silent Hill.


That is the main reason. Why talk about wanting to go somewhere when you are already there.

I remember hear about hearing that Mary was in St.Jeromes hospital in Ashfeild. But I find that hard to believe too.
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Mary & James's stay in Silent Hill

Post by Augophthalmoses on Tue Jul 19, 2011 9:42 pm

Being at St. Jerome then being moved to Silent Hill (a day and a half drive from Ashfield) would make even less sense. So yeah I'm still not seeing any evidence that supports this bizarre theory.
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Mary & James's stay in Silent Hill

Post by what on Tue Jul 19, 2011 9:43 pm

I wonder why everyone assumes that mental hospitals are only for housing lunatics. Many have treatment programs for issues much less serious than wallpaper-eating and self-mutilation.
 
 
 
 
 
 

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Mary & James's stay in Silent Hill

Post by Augophthalmoses on Tue Jul 19, 2011 9:44 pm

That still doesn't prove she actually stayed there. A lot of people try to take advantage of Silent Hill's habitual ambiguity to come up with goofy theories then act like they hold water.

True, a lot of crap in the series is up for debate. But there are still quite a few things in the games that are meant to be taken as they are presented. This being one of them.
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Mary & James's stay in Silent Hill

Post by Xuchilbara on Tue Jul 19, 2011 9:52 pm

what wrote:I wonder why everyone assumes that mental hospitals are only for housing lunatics. Many have treatment programs for issues much less serious than wallpaper-eating and self-mutilation.



Oh I know that. But I doubt that someone who is terminally ill now days would be there considering the resources available for such diseases.
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Mary & James's stay in Silent Hill

Post by what on Tue Jul 19, 2011 9:57 pm

It does mean that Brookhaven's status as a mental hospital definitely doesn't disqualify it from being utilized for this purpose, and therefore, the counterargument relying on this misconception holds no weight.

It would make sense if she were about to die though. However this is doubtful, most people would want to die at home with their loved ones. Even if she loves SH I question if she loves it that much.


The theory never claims that she went to Brookhaven to live out her last days.

The other problem is her full letter to James before she died:


Unless it was written while she was at Brookhaven.

All that being said, the theory represents a possibility, so it isn't really necessary to prove that any of these assertions are definitely true. Therefore, to claim that there is no proof is meaningless. Certainly, enough evidence exists for the possibility to be valid, and nobody has yet come up with anything that has shown the theory to definitely be wrong. If none is forthcoming, it becomes an issue of you don't agree with it, and I do, and nobody can prove anything, so unless you guys on the other side can actually put this thing into a coffin, I'm not sure what the point is to all this.
 
 
 
 
 
 

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Mary & James's stay in Silent Hill

Post by Xuchilbara on Tue Jul 19, 2011 9:58 pm

Then why did James want to die in a place of memories? Why not right there at that moment? The town is a place of happy memories for the two, not negative ones.

James associates the hospital with finding Laura not Mary. He's not looking for Mary there.
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Mary & James's stay in Silent Hill

Post by Augophthalmoses on Tue Jul 19, 2011 10:00 pm

Dude, you guys have been provided more than enough examples that paints why this theory is ridiculous. Being unable to recognize the potential flaws in this theory does not equate to it being disproven.

You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make them drink it. End of story. No matter how you slice and dice it there is still more evidence showing she didn't stay there than there is proving that she did.

Honestly how many times does it have to be spelled out? Several points such as James lack of any references regarding her staying there seemed to have suspiciously ignored by "what".

Hell, at this rate I wouldn't be surprised if this was meant to be some oddball troll attempt.

Also:
what wrote:I wonder why everyone assumes that mental hospitals are only for housing lunatics. Many have treatment programs for issues much less serious than wallpaper-eating and self-mutilation.


Nobody said anything about it being a place for whackos. We're saying its intended purpose is the treatment of mental problems. Mary being there wouldn't make any sense.

Not a hard concept to understand.
Last edited by Augophthalmoses on Tue Jul 19, 2011 10:06 pm.
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Mary & James's stay in Silent Hill

Post by what on Tue Jul 19, 2011 10:04 pm

I would think that dying in a place of happy memories would be thought of, in a way, as that person making that their permanent earthly residence.

I've never been suicidal, but if I were, and I had time to actually plan it out, I don't think I'd intentionally choose to pull the string in a place I don't like, or that has no personal meaning to me. As to why he didn't do it immediately? I would assume that this is where the magical heart-darkness magnetism of Silent Hill intervenes, perhaps putting the very idea of dying in a happy place in his head to act as the hook that brings him in. Surely, I don't believe his idea to go there was spontaneous, nor was it an original thought on James' part.

Hell, at this rate I wouldn't be surprised if this was meant to be some oddball troll attempt.


I would get that impression of you, but the impotent fury you display in trying to impose your opinion without yet offering a single piece of proof against the theory is evidence of your genuine intentions. The fact that you don't have an actual, coherent argument is pretty plain, else you'd spend more time working on that than firing an ad hominem attack at me.

Nobody said anything about it being a place for whackos. We're saying its intended purpose is the treatment of mental problems. Mary being there wouldn't make any sense.

Not a hard concept to understand.


I'm pretty sure that chronic depression is not an indicator suggesting a healthy mental state.
Last edited by what on Tue Jul 19, 2011 10:10 pm.
 
 
 
 
 
 

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Mary & James's stay in Silent Hill

Post by Augophthalmoses on Tue Jul 19, 2011 10:10 pm

lolwhat? Not offering a single piece of proof against the theory? I've given several examples why it doesn't work out. Where have you been?

You been mostly ignoring all of them anyway which only further raises my suspicion of this potentially being a troll setup. I'd be a fool not to consider that a possibility given all the crazy things people do on the internet.

I'm pretty sure that chronic depression is not an indicator suggesting a healthy mental state.

Nothing in the game suggests her mental well being was that weak. Simply being an a-hole to James doesn't exactly jump to her having mental issues. Yeah, yeah, she was depressed and all but that alone isn't enough sufficient evidence to show she was mentally conflicted either especially being on her death bed (people having mood swings on their death bed isn't very uncommon for a lot of people given how it's a very serious situation).
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Mary & James's stay in Silent Hill

Post by what on Tue Jul 19, 2011 10:16 pm

You've given examples indicating why you don't agree with the theory. That's fine. I can accept your disagreement. But, you flatter yourself by believing that your opinions are the equivalent of proof. And, I don't believe I've ignored a single one. All I've done is point out that none of them disprove the theory. Since that's your goal, you're failing pretty miserably.

And, no, trying to label me as a troll doesn't plug the holes in your case, though my past experience with you indicates that this is basically your primary tool of engaging in debate. I'd prefer if you stepped out and I just matched wits with Xuchilbara, because while I don't agree with her, she knows how to debate without acting like a self-important dick.
Last edited by what on Tue Jul 19, 2011 10:18 pm.
 
 
 
 
 
 

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Mary & James's stay in Silent Hill

Post by Augophthalmoses on Tue Jul 19, 2011 10:18 pm

No, not merely "don't agree" with the theory. Examples that punch a hole in the theory. Trying to relabel them doesn't work either.

For example, I'm still seeing how this theory works out if James himself never brings up how she used to stay at Brookhaven...even when he visits the hospital.

Or is that point going to be ignored too?
Last edited by Augophthalmoses on Tue Jul 19, 2011 10:19 pm.
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