Xuchilbara

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Possible Supernatural in SH2 [list] *spoilers*

Post by Xuchilbara on Wed Apr 06, 2011 2:51 pm

This is a thread to name supernatural things in SH2, including Maria's game, which there are some:

-Ghosts in Maria's scenario

-Maria is able to hear the ghosts

-The mention of rituals that resurrect the dead

-A note about the religious use of acacia

-ritual objects collected in order to perform the Crimson ceremony to Xuchilpaba (The red god? Xuchilbara? In any case made to lead people to obey God, as noted in the file, that the judgments will be obeyed even under the proud and merciless sun. [God = embodiment of the sun/sun deity] Could Xuchilpaba be behind the "lies" [delusions] James is experiencing? ["The lies and the mist aren't they but I."] This also means the script for the cult and order was already written out by two.)

-Occult books mentioned in the prison. Black magic books. Tome of the Seer reappears in SH3.

-In the jail cells sigils appear as a clear use of magic [sigil magic]

Image

-Wax doll figurine, [found in prison cell] likely used to curse someone

-Tablets of the three sinners representating James, Angela, and Eddie. Corresponding to their counterparts the Oppressor [James] is found in a cell in the prison, The Seductress [Angela] is found in the prison showers [rape/sex implied in its location], and the Gluttonous Pig [Eddie] found in the appropriate place of the prison cafeteria. They make the list because they represent their pasts and the term "sinners" is applied. The cult extols redemption. [memo SH3 about sacrifice] This shows that all 3 of their journeys in SH is "fated" and "implied".

Image

-"This town calls you too." A line by Eddie referencing the town's power to "call" people who hold darkness in their hearts. [sinners]

-Ernest mentions the gods are here in the town; "You feel it too. You were born here." to Maria. In which she replies "I'm not sure if "gods" is the right word for it." [or something similar]

-Picture of the order/cult practicing rituals. The pic is called 'Red & white; feast of the gods and is found in one of the rooms at the beginning of the prison. Its possibly the same one used in Another Crimson Tome when talking about Jimmy Stone, a priest of the Valtiel sect, dressing up as an executioner:
Image

-figure in the bathroom of the opening scene, depicting the names of God from the Kabbalah inscribed around it:
Image

-Burning Man; painting found in a cell depicting the burning of the hotel. James is unaware of the painting's meaning to himself. The hotel burned down with out James's knowledge

-a mysterious "power" [as described by James] blocks the door if you try to reach Angela before you meet Eddie in the apartment building

-Unfinished sigils in the hotel during the fight with the two Pyramid Heads. Appears to be Seal of Metatron outlined. [Alessa? The hotel is near the amusement park where SH1 ended.]

-Art of the area of Silent Hill depicts a skull. James doesn't notice.
Image

-Maria contains Mary's memories in her own scenario ['Laura loved teddy bears. Wait, whose Laura?'] and in the scene in the laybrith. She may be Mary's reincarnation.

-The radio goes off when James first gets it. The voice is Mary's and says "Why did you kill me?" but its distorted

-Alessa's bugs appear in SH2 in no relation to James. Left over residue.


---More to be added.

This is my work. Only reproduce with credit, please.
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Possible Supernatural in SH2 [list] *spoilers*

Post by Dallow on Wed Apr 13, 2011 12:20 pm

Xuchilbara wrote:Image

Never noticed that before. It's incredible what the developers/designers put in the game all those years ago and we're still finding things to this day.

Has anyone ever done a comprehensive easter egg list on SH2 I wonder?
 
 
 
 
 

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Post by Chills on Thu Jun 16, 2011 2:18 am

^^^^

I noticed that but I had no idea what is was when I played the game. I still have no idea what it is.
 
 
 
 
 
 

Xuchilbara

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Post by Xuchilbara on Thu Jun 16, 2011 3:00 am

I think its to ward an evil spirit. In another topic I posted some old incantation bowls against the spirit Lilith and it looked similar to this.
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Possible Supernatural in SH2 [list] *spoilers*

Post by Asterion on Fri Jun 17, 2011 10:34 pm

While there might indeed be certain 'supernatural' references in SH2, I think that a big part of it's strength is that the story doesn't rely on supernatural elements to work.

"Suspension of Disbelief" is always a problem with stories of a fantastical nature, but unlike most of the other SH games, there is no need to believe in the supernatural for the story to work - James is suffering from a delusional state which creates various incredible 'monsters', but there is no need for the audience to believe in any gods or magical plot devices.

While some of the more fanciful endings might use incredible elements (i.e. omnipotent dogs and U.F.O.s) the 'regular' endings do not rely on these sorts of devices - even the "Rebirth" ending can be understood without reliance on the supernatural if one simply sees James enactment of certain rituals as just another manifestation of his delusions - there is no actual evidence to support the notion that James is 'really' able to resurrect Mary.

Most of the other SH games rely on supernatural premises or elements. Both SH1 and SH3 rely heavily on the idea of a girl with considerable supernatural power - unless you take the interpretation that SH1 is just a delusional dream which Harry has as he sits in his crashed car - the existence of Heather/Alessa in SH3 becomes a bit of a problem then though. In SH4, while a serial killer might not be supernatural, the notion that he can continue to kill people after his death certainly is.
Image
 
 
 
 
 

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Post by Xuchilbara on Fri Jun 17, 2011 10:55 pm

Alessa is the reason the town is messed up. The fact that the town considers Eddie, James, and Angela to be sinners and consequently judges them alludes to the supernatural, and Ernest is a ghost as is Amy.
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Post by what on Fri Jun 17, 2011 11:25 pm

I'd argue that there's next to nothing in any of the games which can't be explained by non-supernatural means. Xuchilbara and I have had this debate several times over the last few years. It's almost like a thing we have.

I'll never be on the supernatural side of this argument, but I recognize that the very nature of the Otherworld lends itself to some ambiguity over whether there are supernatural forces at work, or whether it's just human experience given fantastic form, and that ambiguity does make some elements of the series more fascinating.
 
 
 
 
 
 

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Post by Xuchilbara on Fri Jun 17, 2011 11:35 pm

what wrote:I'd argue that there's next to nothing in any of the games which can't be explained by non-supernatural means. Xuchilbara and I have had this debate several times over the last few years. It's almost like a thing we have.

I'll never be on the supernatural side of this argument, but I recognize that the very nature of the Otherworld lends itself to some ambiguity over whether there are supernatural forces at work, or whether it's just human experience given fantastic form, and that ambiguity does make some elements of the series more fascinating.


That's why I like agnosticism about it. It can't be proved completely but it cannot be disproved either. That's why the title is *possible supernatural*. I would hope that the Silent Hill series continues the agnostic part of the games because it adds an element of speculation and personal interpretation.There's little doubt that belief is important to all the characters in every game, there's a saying "belief becomes reality" or at least its real to that person. To Ernest the gods were alive in Silent Hill, he could feel it, and to Maria she didn't know if "gods" was the right word for it. Either way James experiences a degree of fate, for example you have to meet Eddie before seeing Angela again and later on in the game certain parts are blocked, such as at night you can never go back to your car. Its as if James is "being set up". My friend and I are weak atheists/strong agnostics and when she would talk to other people about things such as the reality of exorcisms [if spirits existed and possessed people] they used the atheist argument against her. She made a statement that there is not a real difference between the theist and the atheist because its all of the mind and its internal, even if you believe its also external. Anyway that's some food for thought concerning the SH series. No matter if there are external "supernatural" forces influencing Silent Hill, it still occurs internally as well and is of the human mind. I think that's applicable to every game.
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Post by firecrest on Fri Jun 17, 2011 11:51 pm

^However, traditionally, the "supernatural" was a way for humans to explain something that they couldn't using conventional methods. Things that people used to consider supernatural can now be explained with science. What we call "mental illness" used to be called "possessed by a demon". Coincidentally, Silent Hill 2 is about a man with mental illness as SH1 is about a girl being possessed by a demon.

Of course, Silent Hill is a work of fiction, so it depends on the director's intentions; but it would be no surprise if all the supernatural aspect could be explained in a non-supernatural way. Vice versa isn't true because we don't use the supernatural to explain what we already can.
 
 
 
 
 
 

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Post by Wren on Fri Jun 17, 2011 11:55 pm

^I don't like to take sides, but I would argue that it's at least somewhat supernatural simply because there are so many things going on in-game that James wasn't previously aware of.

I don't really think James cares why Jennifer Carol's statue was erected at Rosewater Park, blah blah blah.

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Post by Xuchilbara on Sat Jun 18, 2011 12:01 am

firecrest wrote:^However, traditionally, the "supernatural" was a way for humans to explain something that they couldn't using conventional methods. Things that people used to consider supernatural can now be explained with science. What we call "mental illness" used to be called "possessed by a demon". Coincidentally, Silent Hill 2 is about a man with mental illness as SH1 is about a girl being possessed by a demon.


I believe you've missed the point. Not everything is explained with science (Try looking up consciousness and the contradiction in science. Its an anomaly. Its a paragdim. )and not all supernatural is rooted in explanations science can't explain or before we had science. Anthropology could tell you how much more complex people are. 'Possession' is a mental disorder, but at the same time let's say someone believes its both spirit induced and a mental thing, either way its internal because we can't prove the external. Its a form of self hypnosis. The "personalities" could be spirits, but a professional psychiatrist is still needed to deal with the problem. Both the atheist view of possession and a theist's views are based in belief, thus belief is reality.

When you say "Alessa was possessed" yeah she was but she clearly also had psyche problems. I mean her mother abused her and the nightmare was based on her psyche. She probably also had multiple personality disorder. Its the same with Travis and its also the same with James, and the other mentally ill people in the memos. Its even in doctor's memos about reality and unreality in SH2.
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Post by firecrest on Sat Jun 18, 2011 12:22 am

Xuchilbara wrote:Not everything is explained with science

Yet. Human kind has certainly made strives of progress since the dark ages, but we don't have all the answers just yet. So, like the ancestors before us, we still use the supernatural to explain what we can't. The link you provided is a very good example of that. Additionally, the science in question could be incomplete, which is why the author thinks there's a contradiction.

Human kind is still making progress with all the stumbling and falling that come with it.

Its even in doctor's memos about reality and unreality in SH2.

The tone of the memo is that the doctor doesn't know what's going on.

Wren wrote:I don't really think James cares why Jennifer Carol's statue was erected at Rosewater Park

Sorry, maybe I'm missing something. What is it about the statue that is supernatural?
 
 
 
 
 
 

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Post by Wren on Sat Jun 18, 2011 12:28 am

firecrest wrote:Sorry, maybe I'm missing something. What is it about the statue that is supernatural?


The fact that he finds back story on it, and has no reason to care about it's existence. The same with The Little Baroness. If it's all in James's mind, details about the town itself wouldn't matter.

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Post by firecrest on Sat Jun 18, 2011 12:39 am

^Oh, right.
I think the problem is that the discussion tends to be on one far edge of the spectrum or the other far edge i.e supernatural vs psychological. When people argue, there doesn't seem to be much middle-ground.

Non-supernatural doesn't necessarily imply "all in one's mind" so to speak. For James, it simply means that certain things are in his mind while other things may not. The statue and the note on The Little Baroness may not be part of his mind. The Diary on the Roof may be part of his mind because it seems like it has something to do with his mental state. The PH image may be straight from his mind. Does it even look like that in real life or did his psyche distort it somehow?
 
 
 
 
 
 

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Post by what on Sat Jun 18, 2011 1:15 am

Xuchilbara wrote:Not everything is explained with science (Try looking up consciousness and the contradiction in science. Its an anomaly. Its a paragdim. ).


Consciousness is a tricky subject, because its very nature is entirely subjective. There's not any way to prove that self-awareness objectively exists in anybody but yourself. Yet, it's also pretty much established that what we consider to be our consciousness is a self-sustaining pattern of brain activity. If we have a 'soul', that complex electrical pattern is probably it. It's certainly not intrinsic to the matter of our bodies, either, since our entire physical structure changes completely every few months or so.

Science would never go so far as to use terms like 'soul' to describe the phenomenon that is our pattern of existence, but it's really just two ways of describing the same concept. Where the break really occurs is in the idea that this pattern can exist without a substrate (such as the brain) to house it.

In that, firecrest is correct: some consider such events as supernatural simply because a rational explanation is presently lacking. Consciousness may be the one subject on which that will always persist,
 
 
 
 
 
 

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Post by Xuchilbara on Sat Jun 18, 2011 4:40 am

firecrest wrote:^Oh, right.
I think the problem is that the discussion tends to be on one far edge of the spectrum or the other far edge i.e supernatural vs psychological. When people argue, there doesn't seem to be much middle-ground.

Non-supernatural doesn't necessarily imply "all in one's mind" so to speak. For James, it simply means that certain things are in his mind while other things may not. The statue and the note on The Little Baroness may not be part of his mind. The Diary on the Roof may be part of his mind because it seems like it has something to do with his mental state. The PH image may be straight from his mind. Does it even look like that in real life or did his psyche distort it somehow?


My honest opinion is that the supernatural is a term that's an oxymoron. That everything is natural. I only use the term as lay man's terms to explain the "immaterial". That being said James is definitely encountering thought forms which are immaterial, as with What said about subjectivity, it is an entirely subjective experience. Subjective experiences are impossible to prove to science or test in a lab.

For middle ground, I think the spiritual has a lot to do with the mind. "Spiritual" or immaterial things don't always mean things like ghosts, but can include thought forms.
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Post by Asterion on Sat Jun 18, 2011 10:00 pm

Xuchilbara wrote:Image

Does this symbol have any relationship to the 'Halo of The Sun'? There's a definite resemblance.
Image
 
 
 
 
 

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Post by Xuchilbara on Sat Jun 18, 2011 11:42 pm

Off the top of my head I see Hebrew letters. This was found in the prison cell with the books on black magic. I'm pretty sure its just a regular part of sigil magic and is something akin to the goetia. It looks famliar to me, it also seems a bit like a veve. I believe this sigil was used to summon a demon as the ring with Hebrew letters around it is similar to many summoning sigils I've seen. Both the seal of Metatron and Halo of the Sun are sigils. But HOTS is the only one that actually symbolizes a religious group. It contains Hungarian runes and the 3 circles symbols past, present, and future. The four faded rings of that sigil could have another reason, and Hebrew is used instead of Hungarian.
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Post by Mothersdecent on Mon Jun 18, 2012 3:31 am

Dismissing the supernatural in the series is like dismissing the premise itself. SH1 focuses on the supernatural and the occult or must we forget how Alessa had "powers" and could manifest herself in the real world, this is nothing but supernatural.
Non-supernatural obviously plays a role in the series too, it's all a mash of events and happenings imo that gives the games such unique identity.
 
 
 
 
 
 

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Post by Borg on Mon Jun 18, 2012 8:18 am

I gotta agree with Mother, the focus in the games is on supernatural, the stuff that can't be described by science. There might be some non supernatural stuff, but most of the time you can't come up with a scientific or rational explanation for stuff that is happening.

A lot of people say that some stuff may take away the mistery, so I don't understand why some people try to explain everything with scientific means.
 
 
 
 
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