Xuchilbara

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Role of water in SH2 *spoiler*

Post by Xuchilbara on Fri Jul 16, 2010 1:49 pm

Old theory I did from Feb. 11th, 2007.
This has to do with a number of sources about the element of water, which is almost completely inherit and dominate in Sh2.



water has to be the scariest element imo. It's rather dominate in Sh2. I think it relates to Xu being the "Spirit of the Mist". But also, to somethings that are inherit in the game.

Emotions- in classical elements water is the element of emotion. (Hence we cry.) Rfer to the horoscope of Pisces, a prime example. Sh2 is completely dominated by emotion, all the manifestations are that of emotion. Maria- a desire, Angela's monster - fear (& memory), Ph- guilt and desire to be punished etc

Illusions- water has always in many cultures something considered of illusions. In fact it is the very way it mirrors us that in itself is a illusion, as it is not ourself, but the image of self. I think the Hindu concept of Maya is related to water, and Sh2. I.e. the illusion that the hotel is the same as it was 3 years ago... (when mary & james visited.) Notice when James starts seeing the truth water is afoot everywhere. It further relates in respect to it's close cousin delusions, which is a false reality/belief. We may even say that in some cases illusions are a cause of delusions.

The Abyss- probaly one of the scariest concepts and places to come out of the game. It is undeniable that the abyss relates to water. In the game the abyss is in the lake and a part of it is in that old historical society. "He who is not bold enough to be stared at from across the abyss is not bold enough to stare into is himself.
The truth can only be learned by marching forward." & "Or perhaps you are a fool. The truth usually betrays people. A part of that abyss is in the old society..." In this case the abyss is linked possibly to purification, not just because of the water aspect, because in many litarture it relates to "hell", "sheol", "place of the dead" etc and it's also a way to let James see the "truth" despite it's scariness. Many flee and avoid it rather than face their own fears. In the taped convo in Sh3 God is said to have thrown ppl into the abyss (lake) as punishment for their sins...

The Lake- This may be a concept that should be fused with the abyss thing above. The lake is said to have a horrible darkside to it, after all 67 that died of illness are said to sleep beneath it's surface on a memorial next to it.

"Toluca Lake, the town's main tourist attraction. This clear, beautiful lake has another side as well. It may seem like just a typical ghost story that you might find in any number of old towns across the country. But in this case, the legend is true. On a fog-bound November day in 1918, the Little Baroness, a ship filled with tourists, failed to return to port. A newspaper article from back then simply says: "It most likely sunk for some reason." Despite an extensive police search, not a single fragment of the ship nor any of the 14 bodies of passengers or crew has ever been recovered to this day. In 1939, an even stranger incident occurred. _________

(there more pages here)

Many corpses rest at the bottom of this lake. Their bony hands reach up towards the boats that pass overhead. Perhaps they reach for their comrades. " (* note that Nov. has some kind of connection in SH2, Maria comments "November 10 years ago." it's unlikely the references are not unrelated.) Just as the abyss has a metphorical/spiritual side to it, it is also referred to as a deep, vast, void of water. Toluca lake, seems to embody both these sides. I wouldn't be suprised if the Little baroness and the crew disappeared into the otherworld, if this is the case than it would be a kind of "gate" into the otherworld. That's the only logical conclusion, based on some of the references appearing throughout the game, is that lake is some sort of "passgaway" or 'gateway" that leads to a place that manifests delusions and/or illusions "hell" i.e. the abyss.

And last the influence of water is:
Tlaloc- who is tlaloc? He was a ancient Aztec diety that was highly importnant, the name of the lake "Toluca" is named for him. He is thought to preside of rain and fertility, and a patron of those who drowned, they were thought to live after they died in a place caleld "Tlalocan". He is also quite feared, children were especially sacrifaced to him and they collected bowls of the child's tears as a offering to him before the sacriface. He could hurls lighting, bring hurricanes, provoke hunger or drought, and was thought to bring many illnesses among the populous like leprosy.

I'm sure there's more referneces to water I can find, but I am too tired to type it all up right now. Feel free to add more things about watr in the game.
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Role of water in SH2 *spoiler*

Post by Asterion on Mon Jul 19, 2010 11:14 pm

The Tlaloc reference is interesting, but surely Team Silent could not have expected people to a make a connection or get the reference - why make everything so cryptic?.
From the Wiki page on Tlaloc, it seems pretty reasonable to assume that a connection exists. But I doubt that the average Japanese Gamer or person would be any more familiar with Aztec Mythology than their Western counterparts.
Very curious!
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Role of water in SH2 *spoiler*

Post by Xuchilbara on Tue Jul 20, 2010 12:36 am

The tablets they used to represent James, Eddie, and Angela are Aztec gods. Angela's is Mayahuel, Eddie's I suppose is Xolotl based on iconography, and James's is based on the ixiptla (guy representing) of Tezcatlipoca.
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Role of water in SH2 *spoiler*

Post by keeps on Thu Apr 12, 2012 10:22 pm

Feel like bumping this.
.
 
 
 
 
 

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Role of water in SH2 *spoiler*

Post by Xuchilbara on Fri Apr 13, 2012 1:27 am

It's weird I made that theory so long ago and then Downpour came out...
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Role of water in SH2 *spoiler*

Post by Naroon on Fri Apr 13, 2012 2:00 pm

Cool post. Really interesting stuff with the Aztec gods. I wouldn't mind a SH game that explored the past of the town, like events with the ship sinking and whatnot.
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Role of water in SH2 *spoiler*

Post by Shadedarkan on Sat Apr 14, 2012 2:32 pm

Honestly, I don't see that water is dominant in SH2. It plays its role no more or less frequently than in other titles of the series. I'm not saying that the role of water to the series isn't powerful. Water possesses transmutative properties as we can very easily see. But dominant, I just don't see that. (If taken in context when the only two Silent Hills were 1 and 2 I can see how someone could come to that conclusion as SH2 contains more water elements than SH1.)

The Abyss talk may not refer to a physical thing at all. Abyss also means 'unfathomable' or 'unknowable'. My observations show that the Abyss references many things in Silent Hill, but its most notable connection is as a reference to the power of Silent Hill and its seeming epicenter, Lake Toluca.
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Role of water in SH2 *spoiler*

Post by what on Sat Apr 14, 2012 4:05 pm

It is very dominant. Except for the Hospital, every single area has significant areas which are either damaged by, or submerged in, water. Even the hospital, in its alternate form, is coated in rust and mold, which is suggestive if not clear-cut.

I'm just glad we're mostly past believing that the water in the game presages the In Water ending.
 
 
 
 
 
 

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Role of water in SH2 *spoiler*

Post by Shadedarkan on Sat Apr 14, 2012 5:44 pm

So, let's count the water elements. This is only referring to SHs one and two.

  • Fog
  • Traditional element in all games of the series at this point.

  • Toluca Lake
  • Traditional element in all games of the series to this point. Although, we do specifically row across it in SH2. SH2 introduces a few stories in which people died or were placed after death in the lake. But then, there are less gruesome references to the lake in SH1.

  • Well
  • We find a save point floating in the well. But, we find save points all over the place in the game and more often than not, not in water.

  • Graveyard
  • A portion of Toluca Lake intrudes upon the graveyard at the beginning of the game.

  • Town
  • There is no water in the town itself though a monument states that it used to be a swamp some hundred or so years ago. Not really significant as a swamp. Significance was placed on the fact that 'executioner's' washed their weapons there after an execution (this is what sources report, anyhow) and the 'ghosts' of the past 'soaked' into the earth.

  • Apartment
  • The stairwell is flooded and after a time drains.

  • Hospital
  • Neither the right nor wrong side of the hospital had a water element. To say that mold is indicative of a strong element of water is moot when you are talking about a place next to a lake. Any dark, cool environment is going to have mold when the air is constantly saturated with moisture.

  • Prison
  • The water element in the prison was limited to a few certain passageways which were flooded to ankle depth.

  • Hotel
  • The water element here was the flooded basement hall during the Otherworld sequence.
In all, there aren't a whole lot of places with water. SH2 only featured a couple water elements that were designed to work outside of normal operating parameters. Chiefly, the Apartment and Hotel incidents. Everywhere else the water elements are normal representations. SH1 featured nearly as many water elements, albeit none were designed oddly.
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Role of water in SH2 *spoiler*

Post by what on Sat Apr 14, 2012 9:19 pm

Blue Creek Apartments features significant water damage in the hallways. Parts of the prison are soaked and entire sections of both it and the Catacombs are flooded. The Hotel is soaked and dripping wet all over once it shifts. And, of course, you have to row across the lake.

I've seen people argue about what the significance of water is to the game, but never that the water had significance. It's too prevalent to be ignored.
 
 
 
 
 
 

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Role of water in SH2 *spoiler*

Post by Shadedarkan on Sat Apr 14, 2012 9:45 pm

The graphics in SH2 are good, but not that good. Unless James said there was water damage to most of the apartments, then there is no way to see it. It still rains in Silent Hill, whether someone is there to go through Hell or not.

I'm not arguing that water has no significance to the series. I'm arguing that water is not represented to have an overwhelming significance to the degree described. The larger portion of the game lacks the inclusion of water into its theme while others include it in a way that is natural to the fact that the town sits on the shores of a large lake and certain areas include it because there is significance behind it.

Opinions, opinions. That's all that we have.
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Role of water in SH2 *spoiler*

Post by what on Sat Apr 14, 2012 9:48 pm

Unless James said there was water damage to most of the apartments, then there is no way to see it.


Play through Blue Creek Apartments again. Woodside has no significant presence of water but it's entirely impossible to miss it in Blue Creek.

As for water being significant to the series, I would guess it isn't. In the second game itself it's pretty tough to deny, because it's not even subtle in some places.
 
 
 
 
 
 

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Role of water in SH2 *spoiler*

Post by Shadedarkan on Sat Apr 14, 2012 11:11 pm

what wrote:
Unless James said there was water damage to most of the apartments, then there is no way to see it.


Play through Blue Creek Apartments again. Woodside has no significant presence of water but it's entirely impossible to miss it in Blue Creek.

As for water being significant to the series, I would guess it isn't. In the second game itself it's pretty tough to deny, because it's not even subtle in some places.


Blue Creak does have small puddles of water in the 1st and 2nd floor corridors, none in the apartments and no signs of water damage anywhere but the stairwell that is flooded during the Pyramid Head fight. So yes, I did forget about the puddles in the corridors.

Water in SH1 is much more subtle. It's references and use, for the most part, don't hint at its influence. We infer most of that indirectly by the game's use of certain ideologies, beliefs and symbols. The most notable reference to water's influence in SH1 is the Fog, which in many cultures is a time when the veil between worlds gets obfuscated and one can travel 'freely' between them.
As far as I am concerned, there isn't enough evidence and direct symbolism with the water to say that it was a dominate symbolic theme in SH2. Definitely more pronounced than in SH1, sure. But just because water was used in a few places as an environmental piece doesn't mean there is significance to the story in it.
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Role of water in SH2 *spoiler*

Post by Xuchilbara on Sat Apr 14, 2012 11:26 pm

-the lake is dominant theme in 2, there's even files about disappearences and the 67 who sleep beneath the lake.

-white chism symbolizes the mist in SH, in the corresponding tablet in Maria's game it mentions the "spirit of the mist".

-the crimson tome says "the lies and the mist aren't they but I", I'm taking it Xuchilpaba is this spirit of the mist and is resonsible for many of the "lies" (delusions) James sees.

-the lake has no water during the part where James meets Maria, this is obviously some sort of symbol using water or lack thereof as James rows across the lake later.

-the PH cutscene

-the hotel has water and fire damage. It caught on fire but it didn't burn down and there's police tape in the basement, water had to be present to quench the inferno before the hotel turned into ashes.

-the in water ending

-many strange things happen when the mist is out.

-the lake held some meaning to Mary and James. James believed that Rosewater park was the "special place" Mary referred to and the picture of her shows the lake in the background.

-the abyss is referenced in the game. "Abyss" is a word that has a connection to water.
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Role of water in SH2 *spoiler*

Post by Shadedarkan on Sun Apr 15, 2012 12:57 am

I won't argue the fact that the lake was explored in SH2 to reveal that the events taking place in the games were being caused by some power coming from the lake. That is why we see the monument that vaguely references the dead sleeping beneath the lake and the newspaper in the Prison talking about the ship that sank.

We already knew about the fog and its importance in the series after the first game. That is why it even appears in the second game. The reason everything happens when the fog is there is because the fog is always there. SH2 elaborated on the significance of the fog through the rebirth ritual.

The lake having no water right there at Rosewater Park is more probably due to the fact that, that walkway doesn't sit right in the water line of the lake according to the map. The fog obscures viewing farther out onto the lake. I noticed that myself and looked into it back then and that's what I came up with.

The hotel caught fire in between when James and Maria were there. To place significance into an insignificant event makes no sense. Like Proxy One likes to say, "There is no reason for you to assume such a thing." The probable case is that firefighters put out the flames with a fire truck and the police cordoned off the area. The hotel owners didn't have the money to fix it so it was left that way.

My point to bringing up counter-points to all this is that, objectively, it looks like an idea that needed every possible relation to water to support itself. Like I said before, just because water was used as an environmental effect does not mean there is some underlying meaning to it. Silent Hill has as much rationality and adherence to rules as it does the opposite, especially when wandering around in the Fog world.

I have not tried to disprove that the water holds meaning. Especially since the real meaning of the way water was used and referenced at some points was to reveal that Toluca Lake holds the mysterious power that effects Silent Hill. The entire story arch that elaborates and develops the significance of Toluca Lake to the town and the events that happen there is secondary to the rest of the game. Your first play through of the game doesn't give you access to Lost Memories, White Chrism, Obsidian Goblet or Crimson Tome because the Toluca Lake angle is not significant to understanding the story. Indeed, the original release didn't even contain the Maria scenario at all. The developers used it as a means to add some extra explanation of the Lake's power and what may be residing in it.

The references to 'water' for the purpose of helping to explain Silent Hill's power and its origins is a strong element in the game at best. It is obvious that the developers wanted to make sure the players didn't miss it, but it certainly doesn't dominate the game or come anywhere close to it.
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Xuchilbara

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Role of water in SH2 *spoiler*

Post by Xuchilbara on Sun Apr 15, 2012 6:09 am

The hotel burned down after James and Mary left. That's why James sees it as the same from 3 years ago. I'm not talking about water being signifigant in all the games or an explanation of the town's power. My concern is sincerly, Silent Hill 2. Mirrors and other reflective surfaces have always been considered portals to the otherworld in multple belief systems. Spirits and people dreaming can use them to get around and enter or leave. Since the otherworld is connected to the dream world in Silent Hill, it only makes sense that it plays a signifigant role in James's otherworld and psyche.
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Role of water in SH2 *spoiler*

Post by Devoured on Mon Apr 16, 2012 7:55 am

Never saw this before, I had a theory on this here years ago that unfortunately seems to have gone lost over time. I don't have it all in my head anymore but long story short, it related to Freud's iceberg theory of the conscience and subconscience and how in SH2 water is so often absent when it should be there [the river/canal/whatever in the beginning, the well, the swimming pool, the lake] and present where it shouldn't be [everywhere else]. It also dealt with the the abundance of water damage everywhere and in turn the color schemes in SH2, the bloody rusty look is almost completely abandoned in favor of shades of blue/green/grey, not to mention the music that accompanies it all, which generally is much more foggy and fluid than SH1's kettlebanging.

Anyway, it had a lot of water references which would've come in handy right now cause there's no denying that the presence [and absence] of water and water damage is rather obvious in SH2...
 
 
 
 
 
 

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Role of water in SH2 *spoiler*

Post by Shadedarkan on Mon Apr 16, 2012 8:26 am

All I'm saying, is I played SH2 again the other day to verify the water in the Blue Creek Apartments as what suggested and then finished the game to make sure I didn't miss anything actually significant. Not to mention the other sixteen times in the past two months I've played it. I'm betting my memory of SH2 is much more fresh and accurate and I'm just not seeing this overwhelming water theme that is apparently dominating the actual story of the game.
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Role of water in SH2 *spoiler*

Post by what on Mon Apr 16, 2012 9:34 am

Perhaps 'pervasive'is a better term than 'dominant' to describe properly the imagery of water in the game.
 
 
 
 
 
 

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Role of water in SH2 *spoiler*

Post by Devoured on Mon Apr 16, 2012 11:26 am

This is just bizarre...have you even played SH1? Toluca Lake is of no importance to the game whatsoever and the fog was initially only used to combat loading time. It wasn't until 2 came out that either of these things held any significance.

Now I'm actually gonna go and say that the water level and locations in SH2 are every bit as dominant as the eclipses in 1 and the turning of valves in 3.
 
 
 
 
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