Devoured

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Why was James called to the town? [full of spoilers!]

Post by Devoured on Mon Feb 16, 2009 5:36 pm

I've been wondering about this for a while, played Born From A Wish again a little while ago and now what with that 'the cult sucks balls' thread and all - why exactly was James called to the town? Why on that specific day [or the day before, whatever] did he, Angela and Eddie commit their crimes and go to Silent Hill, is there anything at all that gives any hints about that? What I really mean is, I always figured these otherworld shifts must have some effect on the town and that the people living there must somehow be able to know, obviously these things don't happen in Silent Hill on a day-to-day basis, I don't believe the town always has 'that extra dimension' so to speak and the people just don't really notice, this could be proven with the police line tapes in SH2 and some of Ernest Baldwin's words also indicate it's a 'special' day - it has always taken human interference of some kind, any involvement of the gods or whatever in all the other games have always been called upon more or less by members or ex-members of one of the cults - always resulting in an attempt to birth their God - I may be discussing something here that has been spoken of forever ago, if so I'm sorry, but is it possible that James wanting to resurrect his wife could result in the same thing? That Toby Archbolt guy has just become the major player in Silent Hill and there's also the hospital direckter :sheep: that we know of,

The "Lost Memories" memo [in the Maria scenario] says :

"Upon the hill where the light descended,
the Beast intoned his song.
With words of blodd,
drops of mist and the vessel of night,
the grave became an open field.

The people wept in fear and joy at the reunion, but my faith in the
salvation of Xuchilpaba did not waver."

The "Lost Memories" memo in the main game however made it obvious that the book is just some commercial mass-printed thing, and could easily be misinterpreted very much in the vein of Walter and the 21 Sacraments...? Is there anything at all known about the hospital direckter [name/cult...?], is it in any way possible he was part of the same sect as Toby [I forget the name] and thus helped him mislead James to try and get that god down here?
 
 
 
 
 
 

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Why was James called to the town? [full of spoilers!]

Post by ERROR on Mon Feb 16, 2009 6:04 pm

Ernest Baldwin is not involved w/ the Order.
This post is the property of its author and is not to be used elsewhere without explicit permission from the author.

. . . AND THAT'S THAT.
 
 
 
 
 

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Why was James called to the town? [full of spoilers!]

Post by Devoured on Mon Feb 16, 2009 7:05 pm

Uuuuuhm first of all I don't recall having seen or heard anthing to indicate he wasn't, he says he was born and raised in Silent Hill, he speaks of the gods being there - he was clearly well-informed, even if he's not a member of one of the particular cults, he's well aware of them and their teachings. Second, I didn't even say he was involved with the cult, if anything, my theory would state that he's in a similar position as James, since he also would have misinterpreted the Lost Memories text. It doesn't even matter, he is obviously not the reason behind it all or even a major part of the happenings in SH2, I merely pointed out that he confirmed with Maria that what was happening that day wasn't the way the town normally 'behaves', and that he knows more of SH's history and James. So unless you're saying Ernest Baldwin is the hospital direckter [which he obviously isn't] I have no idea what you're talking about.
 
 
 
 
 
 

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Why was James called to the town? [full of spoilers!]

Post by ERROR on Mon Feb 16, 2009 8:26 pm

>I don't recall having seen or heard anthing to indicate he wasn't
I don't recall having seen or heard anything indicating he is involved w/ the Order.

>unless you're saying Ernest Baldwin is the hospital direckter [which he obviously isn't]
How is Ernest Baldwin "obviously" not Brookhaven Hospital's previous director?
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. . . AND THAT'S THAT.
 
 
 
 
 

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Why was James called to the town? [full of spoilers!]

Post by Xuchilbara on Mon Feb 16, 2009 8:43 pm

How is he the director? we have no proof either way.

Well, the town calls those with darkness in their hearts. If we take the painting in the church in 3 into accounting the other gods were created to lead people to obey god. If we add things like the prison tablets indicating that they are sinners (Eddie, James, & Angela) and that blood atones it... what to we got? My hypothesis is that the 'calling' the town does to sinners is the work of a deity from the cult. Specifically, in this case, Xuchilpaba.
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Why was James called to the town? [full of spoilers!]

Post by Devoured on Tue Feb 17, 2009 1:02 am

Aaaahhhh the "did not!/did too!" game again.....! I'm not playing.



No no Xu I get that, but what I mean is...aside from that, wouldn't [Xuchilpaba] need to be awakened, for lack of a better word? Any involvement of the Gods always seemed to be started by people in the other games and always for their own benefit, if the town would call out on it's own to everyone in the area that commits a terrible sin in the eyes of 'god', stuff like that would happen every Wednesday and Friday, and you don't get the feeling from the games it happens very often, just enough to make the town questionable...if people disappeared all the time there would be much more media attention - however it must be highly unusual to have 3 murderers in 24 hours in a small area like that [in addition to all the Sullivan killings] - it always seemed as though Silent Hill leaves a sort of stain on people, mentally, that makes them go further than they would have gone otherwise - all these people pretty much without a doubt all have visited Silent Hill before, hold darkness in their hearts, but that darkness doesn't refer to the sins, but what caused those sins to happen, and that was there before the actual murders, they were all fed up with something and flipped out in situations that other people obviously would've solved without resorting to murder, none of them were thinking straight - for instance James knew Mary only had a few days more, tops, there was no sense whatsoever in him killing her, if he was remotely sane he could've survived those last few days as well, all of that probably would never have happened if they had never visited Silent Hill - but if in fact the town does all this purely to 'feed' on the justice being served to sinners, isn't it all a big hoax by the town then? It always seemed to me [mostly because of SH3 and those various paintings in the church] that Silent Hill is [still] a sacred place and the gods aren't necesarilly evil, the games are just they way they are because of whoever the otherworld represents in the game? Meaning should someone that doesn't hold darkness in their heart unselfishly try and birth the god, Silent Hill would be more heavenly, simply putt...or do you think that they are really just plain worshipping the wrong 'gods' and it's just what those gods do, envoke, and then 'consume' that misery? Cause I'm not very familiar with the 'real' gods that SH's gods seem to represent and I guess the church paintings and their descriptions might not be the perfect examples since the sect obviously would be somewhat biased in their opinion on the whole subject...

I'm also wondering, the Holy Mother and Holy Woman are very opposed, so one would think that at least their teachings would also differ greatly - and none of the sects seem to be too shy to shed some blood in the name of the lord every now and then, so...I can't imagine all of their actions being 'approved' of by the gods? I wonder if they would punish sect members that [unknowingly] worked against god's way as well...
 
 
 
 
 
 

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Why was James called to the town? [full of spoilers!]

Post by Xuchilbara on Tue Feb 17, 2009 12:19 pm

This is going to get more complicated, but i'll try to explain it in the best terms i can. Remember the occult memo in 3 about imprints people leave? That's what happened and is happening in the town. Alessa left her mark, and now so do others, albeit not quite as powerful as Alessa's emotions. Its all based on the concept of animism, which i believe the original Natives had that belief.

I honestly believe any god does not need humans they want them. The gods were always in SH doing work unseen even as the Order was inactive. Mysterious disappearances occurred, if i recall correctly prior to Alessa & the events in 1. The translator of LM speculated that this might be revenge on the settlers of the region for what they did to the Natives. I tend to agree but add that its the work of the Native gods.

you have to remember that the Order as it is now barely resembles the original Native religion. In fact they are completely different. They are pretty much separate religions as of now. One of the things the SH1 guide book mentions is how demons, as they are called in conventional religions, are thought by the Order not far removed from the roots of their gods. (Sounds a bit like some forms of Satanism eh?) This would be where you get things like the incubus. BUT, and this is a huge but, we remember that "God" is a delusion like the other creatures. It may be easier to say that some of the Order (mostly the Holy Womans sect) is doing it wrong so to speak. The "god" they believe in is not the Native American deity, but a demon. (i will point out to you, that you'll notice that the Womans sect focuses way too much on the holy woman and according to the dogma a man and woman birthed god.)

If someone were to try and birth god with no darkness in their heart it wouldn't make sense. In 3 God is to be birthed with hatred, in 1 nightmares. Th God according to them, needs dark negative energy to thrive. If you think back to the demon thing i mentioned, it'll make more sense. Plus, the plague and prisoners left their 'marks' on the town before Alessa did and the corruption of the town's power started there. I hope this makes sense.
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Why was James called to the town? [full of spoilers!]

Post by Devoured on Tue Feb 17, 2009 10:11 pm

Hmm I get the point but I'm not quite sure what memo you mean, is it the same as the one in the subway warning you of ghosts?

Well I didn't mean so much that the gods are dependent on humans to do anything, just that all the [other] events in the games were always started by a human being, namely cult freaks, so I figured they might need humans in order to actually birth the god...but maybe that is in fact what makes SH2 different from the other games in a way. Maybe I'm just too stuck up on the idea of the rituals James and Walter started being pretty much the same, and it always makes me think that James too might not have been doing just what he thought he was doing, it just seemed like the gods would get a little more out of the other games, I guess lol.

But yeah of course lots of people disappeared before that, there are the Toluca/Little Baroness disappearances and the development staff thing to begin with, and I think Lost Memories also has some entry in the history page about alot of people from all over town just plain starting to disappear. I didn't really take this in account though cause it doesn't really concern birthing the god and people being called to the town, since they're people that came with a certain purpose, be it tourism or development or whatever as well as townsfolk and those seemingly random people that actually lived there that disappeared may very well have been just the people that were considered sinners by 'the gods' as well though...

As for what you said about the gods' nature and all...are you saying that the cults' gods have been sort of bastardized with the religion and are, although based on the natives' spirits, not exactly the same anymore - or that they somehow considered some actual demon to be a god, and the whole thing grew from there? I understand that the 'gods' we see/fight in the games are just delusions, or at least physical manifestations of one's view of the god, but I mean - it is generally agreed that there are some 'real' entities in Silent Hill, right, they are in fact worshipping something 'real' wether it's god or devil? It would be totally weak if it was just some mass delusion and a bunch of happenings that created that stuff out of the religion, not because of gods but because the town was just plain evil, and not vice versa...that kinda sounds like what the movie's explanation would be, actually...:\

And oh I always kind of assumed the 'conditions' for birthing the God sort of depended on whoever tries to bring forth the god, or perhaps what kind of ritual was done exactly, and seeing how the religion was just twisted and all, that's how it turned out, since those speicific conditions were different in 1 and 3...but that can be disregarded if it's in fact a 'demon'.
 
 
 
 
 
 

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Why was James called to the town? [full of spoilers!]

Post by Xuchilbara on Tue Feb 17, 2009 11:44 pm

Devoured wrote:Hmm I get the point but I'm not quite sure what memo you mean, is it the same as the one in the subway warning you of ghosts?


Yeah.

This is what LM says:

Creator's Commentary: Alessa, who lies dormant inside Heather, makes
appearances in various places as her memories are revived. The reason why
her behavior differs depending on the place is in accordance with what's
written in the occult magazine that was dropped in the subway.


This ideal can be applied not only to Alessa, but other characters as well and the entire town.

Well I didn't mean so much that the gods are dependent on humans to do anything, just that all the [other] events in the games were always started by a human being, namely cult freaks, so I figured they might need humans in order to actually birth the god...but maybe that is in fact what makes SH2 different from the other games in a way. Maybe I'm just too stuck up on the idea of the rituals James and Walter started being pretty much the same, and it always makes me think that James too might not have been doing just what he thought he was doing, it just seemed like the gods would get a little more out of the other games, I guess lol.


i think the rituals are similar in nature because they have the same root. But the intentions of the rituals and outcomes are vastly different.

I didn't really take this in account though cause it doesn't really concern birthing the god and people being called to the town, since they're people that came with a certain purpose, be it tourism or development or whatever as well as townsfolk and those seemingly random people that actually lived there that disappeared may very well have been just the people that were considered sinners by 'the gods' as well though...


My hypothesis given the mysterious fire outbreak by the heater in the hotel, that the "accident" was the work of one of the deities. I think think they think those people are sinners, more so that they are taking revenge on people of settler descent and i have this feeling that they do not take kindly to Silent Hill becoming a hot vacation spot for tourists.

You did make me think about something though.... I theorize that people like James in 2, "disappear" similar to tourists.

As for what you said about the gods' nature and all...are you saying that the cults' gods have been sort of bastardized with the religion and are, although based on the natives' spirits, not exactly the same anymore - or that they somehow considered some actual demon to be a god, and the whole thing grew from there? I understand that the 'gods' we see/fight in the games are just delusions, or at least physical manifestations of one's view of the god, but I mean - it is generally agreed that there are some 'real' entities in Silent Hill, right, they are in fact worshipping something 'real' wether it's god or devil? It would be totally weak if it was just some mass delusion and a bunch of happenings that created that stuff out of the religion, not because of gods but because the town was just plain evil, and not vice versa...that kinda sounds like what the movie's explanation would be, actually...:\



well, look at the way god is birthed according to the dogma versus Claudia and Dahlia's methods and the focus by the cult on one side (Holy Womans sect) on the Holy Woman with the exclusion of the man. This right here is questionable and in theory cause some other entity or delusion to produce. Other than this comparing the ideas of the gods now with the idea of the gods by the natives, you'll see differences. Because of Christian syncretization for instance, God is given angelic names. We know that the Natives didn't believe this way. Another thing is the European style in which the gods are depicted in the paintings. We know the Natives didn't have pretty long flowing robes.. Nor were their gods that white looking. etc etc.

I'm just saying the Order's idea of the god and gods is in stark contrast to original native beliefs. (Doesn't discredit that the Native gods could exist in Silent Hill.) You do have to remember that to the Holy Mother's sect the Holy Woman's sect idea of God that we see in 1 and 2 is the devil and the ritual to bring about God by the rival sect is of the devil, and vice versa. Maybe in this case the Holy mother sect is closer to bringing about the true god than the Holy Womans? I guess its' very confusing, at least for me, just contemplating it.
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Why was James called to the town? [full of spoilers!]

Post by WebZombie on Thu Feb 19, 2009 9:51 am

Devoured wrote:Why on that specific day [or the day before, whatever] did he, Angela and Eddie commit their crimes and go to Silent hill


They didn't go right away, it happened gradually. Mary had already been dead 3 years prior to James' trip to the town.
 
 
 
 
 
 

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Why was James called to the town? [full of spoilers!]

Post by Xuchilbara on Thu Feb 19, 2009 12:15 pm

WebZombie wrote:
Devoured wrote:Why on that specific day [or the day before, whatever] did he, Angela and Eddie commit their crimes and go to Silent hill


They didn't go right away, it happened gradually. Mary had already been dead 3 years prior to James' trip to the town.



no she hadn't. She died less than a week ago.

Mary's letter: "Happy 8th birthday Laura!"

James: "how old are you?"

Laura: "Um.. I turned 8 last week."

James: "So Mary couldn't have died 3 years ago."

Henry looking at a painting given to him by Frank Sunderland [James's father] "I heard his son and daughter in law disappeared in Silent Hill a few years back."

Then look at Laura. Why is she there? To look for Mary? But the way Laura talks is as if Mary was alive and she had recently spoken to her. The way the letter is written makes it sound like to Laura that Mary fled to Silent Hill. Laura has no darkness in her heart. She isn't delusional like Eddie, James, and Angela. Remember, Laura didn't even know Mary was dead. Now why would she think that? because Mary was alive until recently.

The confusion stems from that their relationship "died" 3 years ago from when Mary got ill. But Mary herself was alive until just recently. You have to remember James is delusional. He believes Mary died from the disease 3 years ago, however we all know that he killed her.
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Why was James called to the town? [full of spoilers!]

Post by WebZombie on Sun Feb 22, 2009 3:35 pm

Xuchilbara wrote:
WebZombie wrote:
Devoured wrote:Why on that specific day [or the day before, whatever] did he, Angela and Eddie commit their crimes and go to Silent hill


They didn't go right away, it happened gradually. Mary had already been dead 3 years prior to James' trip to the town.



no she hadn't. She died less than a week ago.

Mary's letter: "Happy 8th birthday Laura!"

James: "how old are you?"

Laura: "Um.. I turned 8 last week."

James: "So Mary couldn't have died 3 years ago."


Facepalm. I forgot that quote ' -_-
 
 
 
 
 
 

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Why was James called to the town? [full of spoilers!]

Post by Xuchilbara on Thu Mar 05, 2009 3:11 pm

F wrote:After many years, I'd take this "calling" point of view with a grain of salt. People being summoned to atone for their sins, etc. etc.

Sure, the town HAS an effect on what the so-called "sinners" (let's use this word here just for reference) have done, but why would it specifically choose certain "targets" for this or that? If we're going to have a covenant that this is the case, then we'll be banalyzing the story of the town and its characters as portrayed in the games, leaving a tangential prerogative that every single person who undergoes a stint in the otherworld happens to have a close relationship with the town, and as evidenced by SH4, that is NOT the case.

I surmise that people are thinking "so all of that stuff with Jim is coincidence?"

Yes.


Too bad it's supported in Lost Memories. Laura has no darkness in her heart, therefore does not see the monsters. The town calls those with "darkness" in their hearts. So yes it does punishes "sinners". The tablets that represent the three sinners in the prison, the Glutton, the Seductress, and the Oppressor are representative of Eddie, Angela, and James respectively.

Basically the town is repeating what happened with Alessa on people who actually deserve it. Creating their own purgatories and nightmares. If we add the fact that the other deities were created to lead people into obeying God we can summarize and hypothesize that the god or gods is doing this to people. It's clearly evident that the Order believes in sin. The idea in the prison to give blood to atone for the three sins, has a Aztec basis of doing similar to certain gods in confessing their sin.(bloodletting) Not trying to push too much here, but the rituals and some of the idea structure of the Order have Mayan and Aztec motifs.(which in some cases are similar anyway) Not to mention the tablets Representative of the three characters of 2 are in fact from Aztec codexes. (Ok well no that's a little too OT.)

But i digress.. the matter is that sin is a concept entirely acceptable in the Silent Hill universe.
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Why was James called to the town? [full of spoilers!]

Post by Xuchilbara on Thu Mar 05, 2009 10:03 pm

I don't understand why people get upset that Silent Hill is made for money, anyway. I play it for my entertainment. Marketing tools are used everywhere with SH. especially now that Americans have taken it over. I for one am glad Lost Memories was written because it dispels myths and presents facts about the games, their influences, and why something is the way it is. I really don't care about the motive in promoting such a thing. I think if Konami really wanted to market Silent Hill they would bring Lost Memories to America, which they never have. And the series is popular enough for it.

if its your opinion, then there's no sense in arguing it. Everyone has their own unique perspective of the series.
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Why was James called to the town? [full of spoilers!]

Post by Xuchilbara on Thu Mar 05, 2009 11:51 pm

I did both, lol. I said facts, but i also used other facts of the game to expand and make a theory.
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Why was James called to the town? [full of spoilers!]

Post by Devoured on Tue May 19, 2009 12:37 am

Hmmm what happened here, posts deleted? Someone left?


Anyway, I was just thinking about the initial idea behind this topic some more, the whole *is what James is doing in the game in fact birthing the God as well?* thing, not much to discuss anyway haha but hum....'Mary' in the end is wearing what looks a hell of alot like one of those nun's caps to me, I've always seen it as that but never really gave it any attention...now if James goes for the Rebirth Ending, and if hypothetically speaking my theory is right, she would be the one to birth the god, that would make her like *the* Mary [as in Jesus's mom], or Mother Of God... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theotokos just thought I'd mention it...
 
 
 
 
 
 

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Why was James called to the town? [full of spoilers!]

Post by Xuchilbara on Tue May 19, 2009 11:33 pm

It was Mr.F's posts. Don't ask.

Ok, not to be mean... but there's no evidence of such a connection and i am doubtful of one. After all James is there to be judged as a sinner. why would he be needed to birth god? the religion extols redemption.
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Why was James called to the town? [full of spoilers!]

Post by Devoured on Thu May 21, 2009 8:58 pm

Hmmmm o...k lol

Well that kind of was the original point - since James is the only one in the series that really falls under that category of coming there for punishment, Travis would be another, but since 0rigins is way more recent and just really made an effort to use alot of elements from 2 I didn't really count it...other than that Harry has no *real reason* specified, he might have had psychological problems of some sort but nothing indicates he *holds darkness in his heart*, Heather *history/brought on by Claudia*, Henry *same story as Harry, plus brought on by Walter* and as far as I can tell, Homecoming didn't focus on the main character [forgot his name] having sinned or anything either, moreso his parents...so aside from Homecoming that I know of all the other titles have more or less focused on birthing the god, even 0rigins w/ the sin element...all this also not counting the settlers, tourists etc that disappeared, since we don't really know how they disappeared, many of the bits of info are about several if not lots of people missing at the same time etc...

I know you said before [in this thread IIRC] that you don't think the God needs human interference to be born, but how do you figure that? I mean, I always assume the god [not taking in account if it's several gods for different cults etc] would *want* to be born, so why wouldn't it have by now - if it doesn't need the cults, wouldn't it avoid all the drama that we see in the games, just pick a suitable human host itself, impregnate it and make it happen before someone can put a stop to it? As far as I can see, all of the cults are very hypocrite and have all been run mainly by people that do so in their own interest, for money/power etc, and not too shy to shed some blood at all, and use people to their advantage...plus do they really care about people that aren't part of their religion? We sort of have to assume the letters that James gets are 'real', so someone must care enough for some reason to go through alot of trouble of getting him from spot to spot...

Oh well I dunno I guess I should just let it go haha, I just thought of Mary's nun outfit and started thinking about this all over again...most likely the biggest flaw in my theory is the fact that 'Heather' was supposedly impregnated with the God all her life, so if it IS the same god that they're all worshipping, it's not possible. Come to think of it however, Walter was also already actively killing during the 90s so the other cults must not have thought much of it...?
 
 
 
 
 
 

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Why was James called to the town? [full of spoilers!]

Post by what on Thu May 21, 2009 9:03 pm

I don't believe Silent Hill really has any gods, and that the beings we see given the title are mere monsters.
 
 
 
 
 
 

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Why was James called to the town? [full of spoilers!]

Post by Xuchilbara on Thu May 21, 2009 9:07 pm

what wrote:I don't believe Silent Hill really has any gods, and that the beings we see given the title are mere monsters.



Then you'd have the same view as Christians. Might as well call their gods, "demons" eh?
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