TheEyeofNight

Posts: 10

Joined: Jun 07, 2016

Born from a Wish. (Spoilers.)

Post by TheEyeofNight on Fri Jun 17, 2016 12:12 am

Naroon wrote:As to the "why" of Laura being in the Otherworld, it's because she has a different sort of darkness in her heart, and it's the darkness of loneliness.


That makes a lot of sense, but BoLM says:

Of all the characters, she is the only one who does not hold any darkness
in her heart.


I assumed Laura was drawn in because of her connection to Mary. Like how Douglas was drawn in because of Heather.

Book of Lost Memories wrote:SECTION TWO: Guiltless characters who visit Silent Hill by chance

In the town of Silent Hill, those who shoulder the weight of their crimes
and their own pasts gather. However, like Douglas, characters who happen to
become involved for some reason or other have also come to appear. These
characters, who hold no darkness in their hearts, come to fulfill the role
of supporting the protagonist...

IMAGE: Laura
Having gotten to know Mary in the hospital, Laura visits the place which
held memories for Mary in the hopes of seeing her again.
 
 
 
 
 
 

Otherworld

Member

User avatar

I'm going to town either way ...

Posts: 6255

Joined: Oct 11, 2013

Location: Canada

Born from a Wish. (Spoilers.)

Post by Otherworld on Fri Jun 17, 2016 10:18 am

Onantschenko wrote:
Otherworld wrote:If you choose to interpret the game in a certain way, that's fine. All the power to you. But please do not call the interpretations of others "bullshit". In no way am I trying to bullshit about anything. I am simply replying to your posts to the best of my knowledge as well as using the data provided by The Book of lost Memories.

I believe that purpose of SH2 is be mysterious. A wise choice of Konami!


Agreed.

Onantschenko wrote:You need not take to the side of the offense, I didn't come here to offend anyone. I'm not the owner of the truth, I just lost a little bit of patience because of this book (I told you about him, what I think of him).

You can believe what you want, my goal is to know against you points about my theory (probably other people have the same idea).


Ok, I enjoy the conversation.

Onantschenko wrote:
Otherworld wrote:You have not a answered my question about giving me an example of an Otherworld transition. When does that occur in Silent Hill 2?
Laura can interact with James and Eddie (she never interacts with Maria) because she is in the otherworld. It is really that simple.
If you choose not to believe that James is in the otherworld the entire time we play the game that's fine. That's your opinion.
But if that is the case, please tell me when he is in the real world? At what point in the game is James not in the otherworld?


The first transition from the real world to the ' otherworld ' is after the fight against the flesh lip (Brookhaven hospital), the world back to normal when James kills Eddie. James back to the port where you get a boat and go to the Lakeview hotel.
At hotel James look at the videotape, he remember what actually did with Mary, after this the real world back to the ' otherworld '.
Real-world colors are more vivid. Already the ' otherworld ' are dark colors and physical laws are violated.
You can believe what you want, but if you ask me, I will answer you.
I'm not going to use more terms that could be offensive. I have some thing to show, but not now.

This is a complex game to understand, I've been at this for four years looking for information on my free time.


Now, I ask you, what about all of the monsters (manifestations) James has to fight during the time between the start of the game all the way to the hospital. You believe all of that is happening the real world? You believe PH is a real living thing as you encounter him multiple times way before you reach Flesh Lips. How is that possible ? How are there monsters in the real world ?

BoLM quote:
Regarding James, who escapes from the crime that he has committed, elements from the depths of his consciousness are manifested. What the power of the town causes to appear before him is an otherworld that is a combination of his delusions and his desire for punishment.

Grotesque creatures brought forth by James, who is tormented by feelings of guilt. This section will examine the significance of these creatures.

"Lying figure." A being that represents the image of a patient writhing in agony. A manifestation of James' suffering.

"Bubble Head Nurse." Its grotesquely swollen head faces the wrong way. A being that is suggestive of Mary's hospitalization.

MANNEQUIN: A manifestation of James' natural urges and inclinations. Accordingly, it is abused by Pyramid Head.

"Pyramid head." Takes the appearance of an executioner of times past, but is actually incarnated from the part of James' consciousness that feels that he deserves punishment.

In the town of Silent Hill, a power exists that gives discernable form to peoples' innermost thoughts. As for the otherworld that appears in the series, the town is not merely showing the characters their nightmares, but actually manifesting elements of their unconscious minds.


The power of the otherworld is the reason all of the manifestations are a threat to James. Those are monsters that are manifested by James subconscious by the power of the land, the otherworld.

TheEyeofNight wrote:
Naroon wrote:As to the "why" of Laura being in the Otherworld, it's because she has a different sort of darkness in her heart, and it's the darkness of loneliness.


That makes a lot of sense, but BoLM says:

Of all the characters, she is the only one who does not hold any darkness
in her heart.


I assumed Laura was drawn in because of her connection to Mary. Like how Douglas was drawn in because of Heather.

Book of Lost Memories wrote:SECTION TWO: Guiltless characters who visit Silent Hill by chance

In the town of Silent Hill, those who shoulder the weight of their crimes
and their own pasts gather. However, like Douglas, characters who happen to
become involved for some reason or other have also come to appear. These
characters, who hold no darkness in their hearts, come to fulfill the role
of supporting the protagonist...

IMAGE: Laura
Having gotten to know Mary in the hospital, Laura visits the place which
held memories for Mary in the hopes of seeing her again.


Loneliness is Lauras' affliction.

BoLM quote:
Due to the appearance of the otherworld on a massive scale in the first game, the town has come to be a place that calls those who hold a profound darkness in their hearts. It seems that people with afflicted minds are easily drawn to the otherworld.


So you see, you do not necessarily need darkness to be in the otherworld. You need darkness to be called. Loneliness goes hand in hand with Lauras' experience in the otherworld.

Naroon wrote:None of those are "real world" transitions, though. The whole game takes place in the Otherworld with the only *potential* exception being the end of the Leave ending, and even that is purely speculation because there's no way to verify it. The Otherworld, as every other game in the series has shown, can and does take on numerous different "forms" and this can be influenced directly by the state of mind of the person(s) experiencing it or perpetuating it. The town isn't an abandoned perma-fog hellhole like it is in the Otherworld, so there's no moment when we're controlling James on his journey that he ever transitions back to the real world.

As for Laura, she is definitely in the Otherworld the whole game because she is able to wander through the streets vandalizing the walls without being noticed/punished, running through apartment complexes without being noticed/punished, and even manages to maneuver through the hospital and somehow gain access to doors and keys without being spotted/punished (this example is the biggest giveaway that she's not in the real world because there is NO WAY she could ever get away with this in the real world at any time of day.)

As to the "why" of Laura being in the Otherworld, it's because she has a different sort of darkness in her heart, and it's the darkness of loneliness. We know she is an orphan, who hitched a ride to the town with Eddie of all people (this is seen in the opening montage video when the game is booted up.) Her goal was to go to Silent Hill to try to find Mary because she was unaware she had died and was the closest she had to a parental/mother figure. Mary had even expressed her desire to adopt Laura if she weren't sick. Laura's darkness is the pain of being alone, something she must be enduring in her otherwise saccharine version of the Otherworld, one which is devoid of adults who could bring her down and stop her free-spirited vagrancy. Her darkness is one that could be felt by any adult or adolescent, yet she sees no monsters because she is innocent as she is a child and hasn't committed any crimes or feels like she deserves punishment, which are the afflictions of the three primary adult characters in James, Eddie, and Angela.

Thus this easily and clearly explains why Laura can interact with the rest of the cast, save Maria for reasons already explained. Believing that the town is abandoned in the real world or that the real world appears in the game at all or that Laura isn't in the Otherworld are all beliefs that introduced numerous plot-holes and logical fallacies that make no sense. At no point in SH2 do any of the characters ever interact with someone who is in the real world. So if Laura were in the real world, how would she be interacting with James and Eddie?


^ Completely agree with the above post.
Image
 
 
 
 
 

TheEyeofNight

Posts: 10

Joined: Jun 07, 2016

Born from a Wish. (Spoilers.)

Post by TheEyeofNight on Fri Jun 17, 2016 1:21 pm

Otherworld wrote:Loneliness is Lauras' affliction.

BoLM quote:
Due to the appearance of the otherworld on a massive scale in the first game, the town has come to be a place that calls those who hold a profound darkness in their hearts. It seems that people with afflicted minds are easily drawn to the otherworld.


So you see, you do not necessarily need darkness to be in the otherworld. You need darkness to be called. Loneliness goes hand in hand with Lauras' experience in the otherworld.


I understand what you're saying, but BoLM specificly says Laura holds no darkness in her heart.
Douglas had no darkness in his heart either, but he was also drawn into the Otherworld. It seems entirely possible to me that people can be drawn into the Otherworld simply because they have some relevance to the protagonist's reason for being there, and BoLM seems to affirm this in the quote I gave.
 
 
 
 
 
 

Otherworld

Member

User avatar

I'm going to town either way ...

Posts: 6255

Joined: Oct 11, 2013

Location: Canada

Born from a Wish. (Spoilers.)

Post by Otherworld on Fri Jun 17, 2016 2:12 pm

TheEyeofNight wrote:
Otherworld wrote:Loneliness is Lauras' affliction.

BoLM quote:
Due to the appearance of the otherworld on a massive scale in the first game, the town has come to be a place that calls those who hold a profound darkness in their hearts. It seems that people with afflicted minds are easily drawn to the otherworld.


So you see, you do not necessarily need darkness to be in the otherworld. You need darkness to be called. Loneliness goes hand in hand with Lauras' experience in the otherworld.


I understand what you're saying, but BoLM specificly says Laura holds no darkness in her heart.
Douglas had no darkness in his heart either, but he was also drawn into the Otherworld. It seems entirely possible to me that people can be drawn into the Otherworld simply because they have some relevance to the protagonist's reason for being there, and BoLM seems to affirm this in the quote I gave.


You must also remember that in Silent hill 1, 3, 4, and Homecoming the otherworlds are derived by an outside influence. Alessa, Claudia/Heather/Alessa, Walter, are responsible for the otherworlds of 1 3 and 4 and a pact made long ago by the town's founders of Shepherd's Glen with the god of the Order that failed due to a first born not being sacrificed is the reason Sheperd's Glen is over taken by the otherworld in Homecoming.

EDIT: Forgot Origins (thanks Naroon) - The the otherworld derived in Origins is directly related to Alessa's power. She is the outside influence.

In 2 and Downpour, the otherworld is derived by the protagonist subconscious minds themselves as those particular protagonist's are called to town. Making DP and 2 a much more personal otherworld as manifestations we see represent the consciousness of that person alone.

With that being said, you cannot compare Douglas to Laura as far as why they are in the otherworld. In 3 Heather and Claudia are the reason for the transitions to the otherworld.

In 2, it is the power of the land/town itself, with no outside influence. This is where Lauras' afflicted mind and lonilness become the main constituent of her own personal otherworld.

BoLM quotes:


The power of Silent Hill absorbs what people hold in their hearts and manifests delusions and elements of their subconscious minds. And so, the truth is that the consciousness that becomes the main constituent of what is called the "otherworld" varies. As a few different incarnations of the otherworld have been presented up to this point in the series, let us ascertain the differences in each of these respective works.

The main constituent of the otherworld differs in each work of the series

[Silent Hill]
Due to her severe burns and endless suffering, Alessa's power runs wild. Her agony is manifested and the entire town is swallowed up by the otherworld. Harry searches for his daughter in the otherworld.


[Silent Hill 2]
Regarding James, (< a much more personal otherworld) who escapes from the crime that he has committed, elements from the depths of his consciousness are manifested. What the power of the town causes to appear before him is an otherworld that is a combination of his delusions and his desire for punishment. As James acknowledges his crime, the otherworld disappears.

[Silent Hill 3]
The shift to the otherworld that occurs in the shopping mall, among other places, has to do with Claudia. As she recovers her memories, Alessa's influence grows stronger. Claudia possesses a unique power.
Last edited by Otherworld on Fri Jun 17, 2016 3:18 pm.
Image
 
 
 
 
 

Naroon

Member

User avatar

Pillman's got a gun!

Posts: 5323

Joined: Mar 29, 2011

Location: United States

Born from a Wish. (Spoilers.)

Post by Naroon on Fri Jun 17, 2016 2:23 pm

@EyeofNight

That is true, but it doesn't go against what Otherworld and I are saying. In SH2, the Otherworld isn't brought about by an individual through means of sorcery (e.g. Claudia, Alessa, Dahlia, Walter, etc.) but it simply just is. It is a realm of explicit permanence and as such, does not necessarily require the direct influence of an individual to "pull" people into it. As we can tell from the events of SH2, all of the adult characters have darkness in their hearts and were "called" to the town as a result. Laura was called to the town by way of having the explicit desire to go there to search for Mary. Whether or not it's a coincidence that she managed to hitch a ride with Eddie, another person who would end up having a significant impact on James' journey, is up for debate, but personally I lean towards a positive notion because the game does appear to have many elements of fatalism in it.

So when you ask the question of what was Laura's importance and why/how did she come to the town, either way she still ends up being an individual with her own emotions and convictions and reasons for being in the town, not existing merely as a foil for a plot device for James' sake. The book uses the word "darkness", but this could be thought of being synonymous and symbolic of "guilt", which is something she wouldn't have because as we know, she didn't commit any crimes or wrongdoings to warrant such. The book implies that she "sees the town as normal", but we know she is in the Otherworld so what it most likely means by that is that the town doesn't seem deformed to her. But we can postulate that she is still lonely in her version of the Otherworld because as previously mentioned, she is never stopped or noticed by any adult figures in cases where she would've with 100% certainty have been caught, interrogated, and send back to her orphanage. She exhibits free reign with not a single mention of any annoying adults hampering her trek, so she must not have come across any adults besides James and Eddie (and maybe others who were in the Otherworld, but there's no evidence to support this.)

So in the end it boils down to semantics, really. In SH1, 3, Origins, etc. the protagonists and antagonists are drawn into the Otherworld by external influence, not by internal materialization and struggle, but that doesn't imply that the Otherworld has to work in only one way when it comes to how people are "transported" there.
Image
 
 
 
 
 

TheEyeofNight

Posts: 10

Joined: Jun 07, 2016

Born from a Wish. (Spoilers.)

Post by TheEyeofNight on Fri Jun 17, 2016 3:15 pm

Otherworld wrote:You must also remember that in Silent hill 1, 3, 4, and Homecoming the otherworlds are derived by an outside influence. Alessa, Claudia/Heather/Alessa, Walter, are responsible for the otherworlds of 1 3 and 4 and a pact made long ago by the town's founders of Shepherd's Glen with the god of the Order that failed due to a first born not being sacrificed is the reason Sheperd's Glen is over taken by the otherworld in Homecoming.

In 2 and Downpour, the otherworld is derived by the protagonist subconscious minds themselves as those particular protagonist's are called to town. Making DP and 2 a much more personal otherworld as manifestations we see represent the consciousness of that person alone.

With that being said, you cannot compare Douglas to Laura as far as why they are in the otherworld. In 3 Heather and Claudia are the reason for the transitions to the otherworld.

In 2, it is the power of the land/town itself, with no outside influence. This is where Lauras' afflicted mind and lonilness become the main constituent of her own personal otherworld.


I would say that the Otherworlds of all the games are made up of the subconscious thoughts and feelings of someone and operate under the same rules for the most part, with the exception of calling people.
SH4's Otherworld is a different story.

As for comparing Laura to Douglas, BoLM puts them in the same category, as "Guiltless characters who visit Silent Hill by chance."
Maybe Laura wasn't "called" to the Otherworld like James, Eddie, and Angela were. It's possible that she decided to run away to Silent Hill on the same day as James' arrival by chance, and was drawn into the Otherworld when she and Eddie arrive.

Also, I feel that Laura's Otherworld looks like a normal town to her, because she has no subconscious baggage to be manifested. It's like a blank slate.

EDIT: Sorry, Naroon. I'm a little busy at the moment and I didn't notice your post.

I agree.
My main disagreement was a minute detail that doesn't really change much.
I may have gotten a little carried away and for that, I apologize.
Last edited by TheEyeofNight on Fri Jun 17, 2016 3:51 pm.
 
 
 
 
 
 

Otherworld

Member

User avatar

I'm going to town either way ...

Posts: 6255

Joined: Oct 11, 2013

Location: Canada

Born from a Wish. (Spoilers.)

Post by Otherworld on Fri Jun 17, 2016 3:45 pm

TheEyeofNight wrote:
Otherworld wrote:You must also remember that in Silent hill 1, 3, 4, and Homecoming the otherworlds are derived by an outside influence. Alessa, Claudia/Heather/Alessa, Walter, are responsible for the otherworlds of 1 3 and 4 and a pact made long ago by the town's founders of Shepherd's Glen with the god of the Order that failed due to a first born not being sacrificed is the reason Sheperd's Glen is over taken by the otherworld in Homecoming.

In 2 and Downpour, the otherworld is derived by the protagonist subconscious minds themselves as those particular protagonist's are called to town. Making DP and 2 a much more personal otherworld as manifestations we see represent the consciousness of that person alone.

With that being said, you cannot compare Douglas to Laura as far as why they are in the otherworld. In 3 Heather and Claudia are the reason for the transitions to the otherworld.

In 2, it is the power of the land/town itself, with no outside influence. This is where Lauras' afflicted mind and lonilness become the main constituent of her own personal otherworld.


I would say that the Otherworlds of all the games are made up of the subconscious thoughts and feelings of someone and operate under the same rules for the most part (with Walter's Otherworld being an exception, as is stated in SH4).

As for comparing Laura to Douglas, BoLM puts them in the same category, as "Guiltless characters who visit Silent Hill by chance."
Maybe Laura wasn't "called" to the Otherworld like James, Eddie, and Angela were. It's possible that she decided to run away to Silent Hill on the same day as James' arrival by chance, and was drawn into the Otherworld when she and Eddie arrive.

Also, I feel that Laura's Otherworld looks like a normal town to her, because she has no subconscious baggage to be manifested. It's like a blank slate.


This is really the best way I can explain it.

I tend to interpret the way the otherworld works in a sense that, separately, or at the same time, individuals on their own, or a general consensus collectively as a group ( cult ) or communally ( societal views as a whole ) can be manifested from the subconscious mind all at the same time. Things change when there is a outside influence and/or power manipulating the power of the land/town.

The Book of Lost Memories specially states that the main constituent of the otherworld differs in each work of the series.

So in an instalment such as Silent Hill 2, the fact remains that the only way you end up in the otherworld is with a afflicted mind if you are not called because of the darkness in your heart like James, Eddie and Angela.

Laura does not need to be called, her mind is afflicted (of a problem or illness - cause pain or suffering to; affect or trouble) and/or troubled due to her loneliness and search for Mary, her mother figure.

I am quite sure Lauras otherworld is a pleasant place.

Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
 
 
 
 
 

TheEyeofNight

Posts: 10

Joined: Jun 07, 2016

Born from a Wish. (Spoilers.)

Post by TheEyeofNight on Fri Jun 17, 2016 4:09 pm

@Otherworld

I basically agree with everything you just said.
My disagreement was that I don't think Silent Hill necessarily called to Laura because of darkness in her heart, but I see what you're saying.
 
 
 
 
 
 

Naroon

Member

User avatar

Pillman's got a gun!

Posts: 5323

Joined: Mar 29, 2011

Location: United States

Born from a Wish. (Spoilers.)

Post by Naroon on Fri Jun 17, 2016 4:39 pm

EDIT: Sorry, Naroon. I'm a little busy at the moment and I didn't notice your post.

I agree.
My main disagreement was a minute detail that doesn't really change much.
I may have gotten a little carried away and for that, I apologize.


No need to apologize, my man, I know we were mostly on the same track, I just felt like expounding on my ideas in egregiously verbose fashion for some reason, :D.
Image
 
 
 
 
 

Onantschenko

User avatar

Posts: 20

Joined: Jun 08, 2016

Born from a Wish. (Spoilers.)

Post by Onantschenko on Sun Jun 19, 2016 2:18 pm

Otherworld wrote:Now, I ask you, what about all of the monsters (manifestations) James has to fight during the time between the start of the game all the way to the hospital. You believe all of that is happening the real world? You believe PH is a real living thing as you encounter him multiple times way before you reach Flesh Lips. How is that possible ? How are there monsters in the real world ?


This is interpretive. We probably have different ideas about the origin of the monsters, but I'll tell you what I think.

In Silent Hill strange phenomena happen because of the worship of the old gods, SH2 has quote of Xuchilpaba Goddess (this name is spelled wrong in the book "Crimson ceremony", the name is Xuchilbara, the Red goddess), she is referred to as the spirit of fog. In small verses of the book, she claims she will launch the bitter vengeance and all will suffer the eternal wrath. I believe that the monsters are materialized in the real world by Xuchilpaba (not that the monsters have equal life origins), and she uses the subconscious of the victims against themselves.

Already the monsters give the possibility to make calls with the other characters, as the Mannequin, Lying figure, Madarin and Prisoners. But the Pyramid Head, Felsh lip and the Abstract daddy, are creatures that are limited to a few people. See James ask Eddie: Woodside apartments, room 101.

"James: You're not friends with that red, pyramid thing, are you?

Eddie: Red pyramid thing? I don't know what yer talkin' about. Honest. But I did see some weird-lookin' monsters. They scared the hell outta me, so I ran in here ... "


Eddie didn't see the pyramid head, is like Angela and James, both can view the Abstract daddy. Everyone has some connection of the 'otherworld' that is handled by the entities that are worshipped in the order.
Explaining my views on the connections of the monsters:
REVEAL SPOILER
Mannequin: Is a creature that has a sexual symbolism, his body represents the parties that attract male attention. The monster is connected to sexual frustration of James, but also can be applied to Eddie, but Angela has an aversion of this male instinct.

Lying figure: Represents the pain, agony and isolation. This creature is more specific to James, she represents Mary in their feelings close to death. We can also connect as the Mannequin, a symbol with a weak sexual characteristic. Angela and Eddie suffered with agony and isolation in the world. Eddie suffered bullying and Angela is a victim of rape. And the Lying Figure seems to be stuck by a straitjacket, something that represents the insanity that the three characters have.

Madarin: She is represented by two aspects, first, the psyche of the characters and the second, the representation is the unfathomable anguish and helplessness. James, Angela and Eddie are close to the abyss of madness, if Mandarin fall, she disappears in the deep unknown abyss, it's the psyche, but all the characters are in a State of helplessness, sadness and anguish. Some people put a sexual connotation in Madarin.

Prisoners: It's an inoffensive creature. As the name suggests, James, Angela and Eddie committed crimes that would be condemned as guilty and imprisoned by them. However, he may be referring to the ritual of rebirth..


There is another which is called the "Creeper", a kind of weird bug, but some call him a horseshoe crab. In SH1 Alessa doesn't like insects, but Alessa likes butterflies (this may indicate something). We can also say that Mary and Angela doesn't like insects that are considered disgusting.

I found something interesting, very curious.
Some fan of the game, opened the game in a 3D program, and analyzed the bottle that Maria took the pills that used in room S3, in Brookhaven hospital.

Image

On the label of the medicine, we see the name "White" which may indicate that it is Harry Mason found PVT in SH1. The name "white" is referred to as White Claudia, which was sold by the order. Dr. Kaufmann is the distributor of this drug.

White Claudia Report - Conducted by the Silent Hill Police station
REVEAL SPOILER
Product only available in select areas of Silent Hill.
Raw material is White Claudia, a plant peculiar to the region.
Manufactured here? Dealer = Manufacturer?

Perennial herb found near water. Reaches height of 10 to 15 inches.
Oblong leaves, white blossoms. Seeds contain hallucinogen.
Ancient records show it was used for religious ceremonies.
The hallucinogenic effect was key.


I heard another explanation of the transition from the real world to the otherworld. The speculation that I heard: "Valtiel is a being created by god, and the only way to reach this god would be through him. He would have the role of shaping people and make them obedient to god, another goal of Valtiel would take control in changing worlds, a symbol of this is the siren.

Image

Speculation: Valtiel is found by turning a valve, this Act symbolizes a "rebirthing cycle" he governs and has full control in otherworld and the exchange of worlds.

Masahiro ito says, he was responsible that took Heather to the real world at the end of the SH3.

Other speculation, that have some link the Valtiel pyramid head, try as the garments and the Act of punishing the monsters.

Concept art: Valtiel and Pyramid head
REVEAL SPOILER
Image
Image

This talk about the 'otherworld' made me think that the SH2 may be a concurrent event the SH1 or SH3.
 
 
 
 
 
 

TheEyeofNight

Posts: 10

Joined: Jun 07, 2016

Born from a Wish. (Spoilers.)

Post by TheEyeofNight on Mon Jun 20, 2016 12:22 am

I don't know as much about the mythology aspect as I'm sure other members do, but I don't think the gods referred to in the Order's doctrine actually exist in reality any more than the creatures. The town seemed to have a strange power about it long before the Order came into existence.

Again, I don't know much about the subject, so you guys are welcome to correct me.

EDIT: Before anyone points it out, yes, I do realize the irony of not knowing much about the Order's mythology, given my username.
 
 
 
 
 
 

Otherworld

Member

User avatar

I'm going to town either way ...

Posts: 6255

Joined: Oct 11, 2013

Location: Canada

Born from a Wish. (Spoilers.)

Post by Otherworld on Mon Jun 20, 2016 10:06 am

Onantschenko wrote:
Otherworld wrote:Now, I ask you, what about all of the monsters (manifestations) James has to fight during the time between the start of the game all the way to the hospital. You believe all of that is happening the real world? You believe PH is a real living thing as you encounter him multiple times way before you reach Flesh Lips. How is that possible ? How are there monsters in the real world ?


This is interpretive. We probably have different ideas about the origin of the monsters, but I'll tell you what I think.

In Silent Hill strange phenomena happen because of the worship of the old gods, SH2 has quote of Xuchilpaba Goddess (this name is spelled wrong in the book "Crimson ceremony", the name is Xuchilbara, the Red goddess), she is referred to as the spirit of fog. In small verses of the book, she claims she will launch the bitter vengeance and all will suffer the eternal wrath. I believe that the monsters are materialized in the real world by Xuchilpaba (not that the monsters have equal life origins), and she uses the subconscious of the victims against themselves.

Already the monsters give the possibility to make calls with the other characters, as the Mannequin, Lying figure, Madarin and Prisoners. But the Pyramid Head, Felsh lip and the Abstract daddy, are creatures that are limited to a few people. See James ask Eddie: Woodside apartments, room 101.

"James: You're not friends with that red, pyramid thing, are you?

Eddie: Red pyramid thing? I don't know what yer talkin' about. Honest. But I did see some weird-lookin' monsters. They scared the hell outta me, so I ran in here ... "


Eddie didn't see the pyramid head, is like Angela and James, both can view the Abstract daddy. Everyone has some connection of the 'otherworld' that is handled by the entities that are worshipped in the order.
Explaining my views on the connections of the monsters:
REVEAL SPOILER
Mannequin: Is a creature that has a sexual symbolism, his body represents the parties that attract male attention. The monster is connected to sexual frustration of James, but also can be applied to Eddie, but Angela has an aversion of this male instinct.

Lying figure: Represents the pain, agony and isolation. This creature is more specific to James, she represents Mary in their feelings close to death. We can also connect as the Mannequin, a symbol with a weak sexual characteristic. Angela and Eddie suffered with agony and isolation in the world. Eddie suffered bullying and Angela is a victim of rape. And the Lying Figure seems to be stuck by a straitjacket, something that represents the insanity that the three characters have.

Madarin: She is represented by two aspects, first, the psyche of the characters and the second, the representation is the unfathomable anguish and helplessness. James, Angela and Eddie are close to the abyss of madness, if Mandarin fall, she disappears in the deep unknown abyss, it's the psyche, but all the characters are in a State of helplessness, sadness and anguish. Some people put a sexual connotation in Madarin.

Prisoners: It's an inoffensive creature. As the name suggests, James, Angela and Eddie committed crimes that would be condemned as guilty and imprisoned by them. However, he may be referring to the ritual of rebirth..


There is another which is called the "Creeper", a kind of weird bug, but some call him a horseshoe crab. In SH1 Alessa doesn't like insects, but Alessa likes butterflies (this may indicate something). We can also say that Mary and Angela doesn't like insects that are considered disgusting.

I found something interesting, very curious.
Some fan of the game, opened the game in a 3D program, and analyzed the bottle that Maria took the pills that used in room S3, in Brookhaven hospital.

Image

On the label of the medicine, we see the name "White" which may indicate that it is Harry Mason found PVT in SH1. The name "white" is referred to as White Claudia, which was sold by the order. Dr. Kaufmann is the distributor of this drug.

White Claudia Report - Conducted by the Silent Hill Police station
REVEAL SPOILER
Product only available in select areas of Silent Hill.
Raw material is White Claudia, a plant peculiar to the region.
Manufactured here? Dealer = Manufacturer?

Perennial herb found near water. Reaches height of 10 to 15 inches.
Oblong leaves, white blossoms. Seeds contain hallucinogen.
Ancient records show it was used for religious ceremonies.
The hallucinogenic effect was key.


I heard another explanation of the transition from the real world to the otherworld. The speculation that I heard: "Valtiel is a being created by god, and the only way to reach this god would be through him. He would have the role of shaping people and make them obedient to god, another goal of Valtiel would take control in changing worlds, a symbol of this is the siren.

Image

Speculation: Valtiel is found by turning a valve, this Act symbolizes a "rebirthing cycle" he governs and has full control in otherworld and the exchange of worlds.

Masahiro ito says, he was responsible that took Heather to the real world at the end of the SH3.

Other speculation, that have some link the Valtiel pyramid head, try as the garments and the Act of punishing the monsters.

Concept art: Valtiel and Pyramid head
REVEAL SPOILER
Image
Image

This talk about the 'otherworld' made me think that the SH2 may be a concurrent event the SH1 or SH3.


I understand your point of view, and if you choose to interpret the happenings in Silent Hill 2 by whats written above all the power to you.

But I must point out the following;

You must also remember that in Silent hill 1, 3, 4, Homecoming and Origins the otherworlds are derived by an outside influence. Alessa, Claudia/Heather/Alessa, Walter, are responsible for the otherworlds of 1 3 and 4 and a pact made long ago by the town's founders of Shepherd's Glen with the god of the Order that failed due to a first born not being sacrificed is the reason Sheperd's Glen is over taken by the otherworld in Homecoming. In Origins the otherworld is derived by Alessa's power. She is the outside influence.

In 2 and Downpour, the otherworld is derived by the protagonist subconscious minds themselves as those particular protagonist's are called to town because of the darkness in thier hearts. Making DP and 2 a much more personal otherworld as manifestations we see represent the consciousness of that person alone.

In 2, it is the power of the land/town itself, with no outside influence. This is where Lauras' afflicted mind and loneliness become the main constituent of her own personal otherworld. This is why Laura can communicate with the character in the otherworld.

BoLM quotes:


The power of Silent Hill absorbs what people hold in their hearts and manifests delusions and elements of their subconscious minds. And so, the truth is that the consciousness that becomes the main constituent of what is called the "otherworld" varies. As a few different incarnations of the otherworld have been presented up to this point in the series, let us ascertain the differences in each of these respective works.

The main constituent of the otherworld differs in each work of the series

[Silent Hill]
Due to her severe burns and endless suffering, Alessa's power runs wild. Her agony is manifested and the entire town is swallowed up by the otherworld. Harry searches for his daughter in the otherworld.


[Silent Hill 2]
Regarding James, (< a much more personal otherworld) who escapes from the crime that he has committed, elements from the depths of his consciousness are manifested. What the power of the town causes to appear before him is an otherworld that is a combination of his delusions and his desire for punishment. As James acknowledges his crime, the otherworld disappears.

[Silent Hill 3]
The shift to the otherworld that occurs in the shopping mall, among other places, has to do with Claudia. As she recovers her memories, Alessa's influence grows stronger. Claudia possesses a unique power.


I must also point this out as well.

Image

In the scene above James give us this soliloquy below:

James: I was weak. That's why I needed you.... Needed someone to punish me for my sins.... But that's all over now.... I know the truth....Now it's time to end this.


Now we know PH cannot be defeated .... but ... this happens below, even if you never fire a single bullet at either PH.

Image

So if, as you pointed out below,

Onantschenko wrote:In Silent Hill strange phenomena happen because of the worship of the old gods, SH2 has quote of Xuchilpaba Goddess (this name is spelled wrong in the book "Crimson ceremony", the name is Xuchilbara, the Red goddess), she is referred to as the spirit of fog. In small verses of the book, she claims she will launch the bitter vengeance and all will suffer the eternal wrath.


Why would this happen ?
Image
 
 
 
 
 

Onantschenko

User avatar

Posts: 20

Joined: Jun 08, 2016

Born from a Wish. (Spoilers.)

Post by Onantschenko on Mon Jun 20, 2016 4:32 pm

I don't know much about the mythology of the order, but is interesting.

Myth, found in SH3
REVEAL SPOILER
Origin
Image
In the beginning, people
had nothing.
Their bodies ached, and their
hearts held nothing but hatred.
They fought endlessly,
but death never came.
They despaired, stuck in
the eternal quagmire.

Birth
Image
A man offered a serpent to the
sun and prayed for salvation.
A woman offered a reed to the
sun and asked for joy.
Feeling pity for the sadness that
had overrun the earth, God was
born from those two people.

Salvation
Image
God made time and divided
it into day and night.
God outlined the road to
salvation and gave people joy.
And God took endless time
away from the people

Creation
Image
God created beings to lead people
in obedience to Her.
The red god, Xuchilbara;
the yellow god, Lobsel Vith;
many gods and angels. Finally,
God set out to create Paradise,
where people would be happy
just by being there.

Promise
Image
But there God's strength ran out,
and She collapsed.
All the world's people grieved this
unfortunate event, yet God
breathed Her last.
She returned to the dust,
promising to come again.

Faith
Image
So God hasn't been lost.
We must offer our prayers and
not forget our faith.
We wait in hope for the day when
the path to Paradise will be opened.


Otherworld wrote:You must also remember that in Silent hill 1, 3, 4, Homecoming and Origins the otherworlds are derived by an outside influence. Alessa, Claudia/Heather/Alessa, Walter, are responsible for the otherworlds of 1 3 and 4 and a pact made long ago by the town's founders of Shepherd's Glen with the god of the Order that failed due to a first born not being sacrificed is the reason Sheperd's Glen is over taken by the otherworld in Homecoming. In Origins the otherworld is derived by Alessa's power. She is the outside influence.


Yes, I agree with you. The otherworld is based on aspects of the psyche of the characters. However, the Valtiel is a monster of SH3, and has quotes from Valtiel sect in SH2, a little confused.

I was thinking that the SH2 could have happened next to SH1, some aspects that Alessa likes, like butterflies (tattoo of Maria books, butterflies and the room 202 Woodside) and insects (Creeper) James and Harry found. But not justified the pyramid head, the siren, the articles on Walter Sullivan. the books on the occult and the Valtiel sect.

I believe that the SH2 happens along with the SH3 domain, because the events justifies SH2.

Will not stay remnants of Alessa's powers in the city? as a piece of her soul. I don't know, but that's just my speculation.

Valtiel has similar clothes with pyramid head, puts a helmet of pyramid on it, stays the same. Other aspect of it is the hand with webbed fingers like the pyramid head and the fact that he's torturing the monsters. It's very strange. I'm intrigued by this.

What complicates about Valtiel, Masahiro ito says, that Valtiel took Heather back to the real world after defeating Samael (god). That of the idea that Valtiel has the power to manipulate the otherworld and the transition of worlds.

I don't know why Xuchilbara want pure vengeance and the pain of the servants. There is an idea that it is conceived by the mind of Alessa, but nothing is confirmed.
But we can reference the suffering of Alessa, for the birth of Samael through pain and hatred.

I've been googling and found other information with ancient religions, one is Maria, the name of the goddess cited is Ishtar, is goddess of the akkadians.
 
 
 
 
 
 

Otherworld

Member

User avatar

I'm going to town either way ...

Posts: 6255

Joined: Oct 11, 2013

Location: Canada

Born from a Wish. (Spoilers.)

Post by Otherworld on Tue Jun 21, 2016 10:30 am

Onantschenko wrote:I don't know much about the mythology of the order, but is interesting.

Myth, found in SH3
REVEAL SPOILER
Origin
Image
In the beginning, people
had nothing.
Their bodies ached, and their
hearts held nothing but hatred.
They fought endlessly,
but death never came.
They despaired, stuck in
the eternal quagmire.

Birth
Image
A man offered a serpent to the
sun and prayed for salvation.
A woman offered a reed to the
sun and asked for joy.
Feeling pity for the sadness that
had overrun the earth, God was
born from those two people.

Salvation
Image
God made time and divided
it into day and night.
God outlined the road to
salvation and gave people joy.
And God took endless time
away from the people

Creation
Image
God created beings to lead people
in obedience to Her.
The red god, Xuchilbara;
the yellow god, Lobsel Vith;
many gods and angels. Finally,
God set out to create Paradise,
where people would be happy
just by being there.

Promise
Image
But there God's strength ran out,
and She collapsed.
All the world's people grieved this
unfortunate event, yet God
breathed Her last.
She returned to the dust,
promising to come again.

Faith
Image
So God hasn't been lost.
We must offer our prayers and
not forget our faith.
We wait in hope for the day when
the path to Paradise will be opened.


Yes, these images depict the Orders teachings about God and her return which directly relates to the fetus growing inside of Heather during Silent Hill 3.

Onantschenko wrote:
Otherworld wrote:You must also remember that in Silent hill 1, 3, 4, Homecoming and Origins the otherworlds are derived by an outside influence. Alessa, Claudia/Heather/Alessa, Walter, are responsible for the otherworlds of 1 3 and 4 and a pact made long ago by the town's founders of Shepherd's Glen with the god of the Order that failed due to a first born not being sacrificed is the reason Sheperd's Glen is over taken by the otherworld in Homecoming. In Origins the otherworld is derived by Alessa's power. She is the outside influence.


Yes, I agree with you. The otherworld is based on aspects of the psyche of the characters. However, the Valtiel is a monster of SH3, and has quotes from Valtiel sect in SH2, a little confused.


Valtiel name is derived from "valet." As God's attendant, Valtiel observes Heather in order to ensure the birth of God.

BoLM quote:

C r e a t o r ' s C o m m e n t a r y

In Silent Hill 3 the connection to the first game is quite clear, but the point of contact with the second game isn't so obvious. I created Valtiel because I wanted to relate the works of the series through a creature. In the religion of Silent Hill, Valtiel exists as one who is close to God, and Pyramid Head takes the shape of Valtiel's reason for existence. That is to say, the Pyramid Head character was born from the towns peoples' idolatrous ideologies. In the first game, the ceremonial robes were in homage to Valtiel.
(Masahiro Ito)



Onantschenko wrote:I was thinking that the SH2 could have happened next to SH1, some aspects that Alessa likes, like butterflies (tattoo of Maria books, butterflies and the room 202 Woodside) and insects (Creeper) James and Harry found. But not justified the pyramid head, the siren, the articles on Walter Sullivan. the books on the occult and the Valtiel sect.

I believe that the SH2 happens along with the SH3 domain, because the events justifies SH2.

Will not stay remnants of Alessa's powers in the city? as a piece of her soul. I don't know, but that's just my speculation.

Valtiel has similar clothes with pyramid head, puts a helmet of pyramid on it, stays the same. Other aspect of it is the hand with webbed fingers like the pyramid head and the fact that he's torturing the monsters. It's very strange. I'm intrigued by this.

What complicates about Valtiel, Masahiro ito says, that Valtiel took Heather back to the real world after defeating Samael (god). That of the idea that Valtiel has the power to manipulate the otherworld and the transition of worlds.

I don't know why Xuchilbara want pure vengeance and the pain of the servants. There is an idea that it is conceived by the mind of Alessa, but nothing is confirmed.
But we can reference the suffering of Alessa, for the birth of Samael through pain and hatred.

I've been googling and found other information with ancient religions, one is Maria, the name of the goddess cited is Ishtar, is goddess of the akkadians.


In the first game, the ceremonial robes were in homage to Valtiel. The mention of the Valtiel sect in SH2 is reference to the cult, although PH and Valtiel share characteristics, this sort of thing happens all the time in Silent Hill.

Once a creature makes an appearance/is manifested by the towns power, regardless of who or why it's created for or by, the town chooses where and when to use it next. And in what form for that matter. This is seen in the recurrence of nurses, bugs, mini Abstract Daddies, PH, etc ....

This is because nightmares overlap in a sense, but it also explains why these manifestations differ in appearance.
Image
 
 
 
 
 

Onantschenko

User avatar

Posts: 20

Joined: Jun 08, 2016

Born from a Wish. (Spoilers.)

Post by Onantschenko on Tue Jun 21, 2016 11:29 am

Another commentary by Art Director and designer Masahiro Ito, is the relationship with the game of Tarot, the Valtiel would be the "The Magician", which means, knowledge creation, beginning, destruction and fraud.

On twitter, he makes some comments of this type: "Back to other world, it's time to get back to other world, Heather !" said Valtiel.
 
 
 
 
 
 

Otherworld

Member

User avatar

I'm going to town either way ...

Posts: 6255

Joined: Oct 11, 2013

Location: Canada

Born from a Wish. (Spoilers.)

Post by Otherworld on Tue Jun 21, 2016 11:37 am

Below is the information given in The Book of Lost Memories about Valtiel.

THE MAGICIAN:

http://www.silenthillmemories.net/lost_memories/guide/084-085_en.htm
Image
 
 
 
 
 

Onantschenko

User avatar

Posts: 20

Joined: Jun 08, 2016

Born from a Wish. (Spoilers.)

Post by Onantschenko on Thu Jun 30, 2016 12:12 am

C r e a t o r ' s C o m m e n t a r y:
In Silent Hill 3 the connection to the first game is quite clear, but the point of contact with the second game isn't so obvious. I created
Valtiel because I wanted to relate the works of the series through a creature. In the religion of Silent Hill, Valtiel exists as one who is close to God, and Pyramid Head takes the shape of Valtiel's reason for existence. That is to say, the Pyramid Head character was born from the townspeoples' idolatrous ideologies. In the first game, the ceremonial robes were in homage to Valtiel.
(Masahiro Ito)


The references that the SH2 has about the Valtiel is subtle, but there are. Added by to be very simple.
Now it's starting to make sense, the similarities of Valtiel with Pyramid head. It strengthens my idea that the SH2 may occur along with SH1 or SH3.
For me, it makes sense the Valtiel control change of worlds, in fact, the suffix "El" means God in Hebrew. Samael - Sama = Poison, El = God (Venom of God or Poison of God)

But only are my assumptions!
 
 
 
 
 
 

Otherworld

Member

User avatar

I'm going to town either way ...

Posts: 6255

Joined: Oct 11, 2013

Location: Canada

Born from a Wish. (Spoilers.)

Post by Otherworld on Mon Jul 04, 2016 10:50 am

Onantschenko wrote:
C r e a t o r ' s C o m m e n t a r y:
In Silent Hill 3 the connection to the first game is quite clear, but the point of contact with the second game isn't so obvious. I created
Valtiel because I wanted to relate the works of the series through a creature. In the religion of Silent Hill, Valtiel exists as one who is close to God, and Pyramid Head takes the shape of Valtiel's reason for existence. That is to say, the Pyramid Head character was born from the townspeoples' idolatrous ideologies. In the first game, the ceremonial robes were in homage to Valtiel.
(Masahiro Ito)


The references that the SH2 has about the Valtiel is subtle, but there are. Added by to be very simple.
Now it's starting to make sense, the similarities of Valtiel with Pyramid head. It strengthens my idea that the SH2 may occur along with SH1 or SH3.
For me, it makes sense the Valtiel control change of worlds, in fact, the suffix "El" means God in Hebrew. Samael - Sama = Poison, El = God (Venom of God or Poison of God)

But only are my assumptions!


I really do not see how PH controls of shifts the otherworld for James. I mean, he actually helps James in his journey.

Image

James is knocked off this rooftop by PH and that is the only way he is able to progress in his journey.

BoLM quote:

The creature known as "Pyramid Head" that appears in Silent Hill 2 leaves behind a great number of mysteries and has evoked a great response from players. Let's formally dispose of those mysteries.Originally, the pyramid head outfit was the guise of Silent Hill's executioners. Three years ago when James visited this town, that figure overlapped with his own feelings of guilt, and then later appears as a representation of his desire for punishment in the otherworld created by his subconscious.
Image
 
 
 
 
 

Lilith

Moderator

User avatar

Mind of Destructive Taste

Posts: 8610

Joined: Feb 21, 2006

Location: United States

Born from a Wish. (Spoilers.)

Post by Lilith on Mon Jul 04, 2016 2:30 pm

Xuchilbara is the red "god". "Goddess" is not mentioned. The gender of Xuchilpaba is unknown.

Ishtar reference is mostly due to acacia. In Downpour it says Babylonian religion influence the cult. Outside of the white liquid, the influence is unknown and how it got there being 5000 years old and mostly lost in history until very recent archaeology is also unknown. That's a bigger mystery than the cult being Catholic influenced instead of protestant.

The gods were created to lead people to obedience to God. Thus, it is implied that James is being led to God.

Xuchilpaba may be nothing more than an aspect of God because of the underworld and death connections. This is hinted at in the red book. Now, in mythology it is common for a sun god to descend into the underworld and become another god at night. This happens to the Babylonian sun god Shamash, who becomes Nergal when he is in the underworld. It also happens in Egyptian myth. Likewise, Ishtar's descent myth is probably her most famous where she descends into the underworld and is killed as a result, only to be resurrected later which is very similar to the myth of God with the exception that in Babylonian religion the gods brought Ishtar back to life. In the Order it was people. The whole mythos cycle of God in the cult is just a metaphor for night and day it seems. [I made a topic about this awhile ago, but no one knew wth I was talking about.]

The otherworld in terms of looks and function as well, is similar to the underworld with a twinge of hell added to it. Ofc hell and the underworld have always been related in most religions and comparative religion.
I cease to exist on the Christmas list
 
 
 
 
 

Onantschenko

User avatar

Posts: 20

Joined: Jun 08, 2016

Born from a Wish. (Spoilers.)

Post by Onantschenko on Mon Jul 11, 2016 2:19 pm

Otherworld wrote:I really do not see how PH controls of shifts the otherworld for James. I mean, he actually helps James in his journey.

I agree with what you had mentioned about the clothing of the PH, which their clothes is in honour to the Valtiel. The PH and the Valtiel possess characteristics sadistic, because the PH Chase James and using Maria as a weapon to achieve the psyche of James.

Xuchilbara wrote:Xuchilbara is the red "god". "Goddess" is not mentioned. The gender of Xuchilpaba is unknown.

It's hard to find out the gender. The name Xuchilbara or Xuchilpaba in my language is female. The paintings of SH3 show a woman that wearing a red dress, which I consider the "red god", it makes sense to me to be a woman (it's just my speculations).
Image

That's like asking who is the yellow god, Lobsel Vith? Some theories point out that he is Valtiel, but nothing is concrete about this. Still unknown about Lobsel Vith.

Ishtar is a goddess not exclusive of the Babylonians. And is present in other peoples of Mesopotamia, as Sumerian, Neo-Assyrian and Akkadian.
Sumerian: Inanna
Akkadian: Ištar
Old Babylonian and Neo-Assyrian: MUŠ

There are many conflicts with the Hebrew tribes and those people who practiced cults to Ishtar. Some Hebrew tribes associated Ishtar with Lilith, the first wife of Adam (Adam and Eve) in Jewish tradition. Lilith was corrupted by Samael, this is called the God of order.

There is controversy over the figure drawn in the public bathroom in which James starts the game. People claim that it's just an easter egg of the UFO ending, but don't pay attention in Scripture that in the drawing.

Image

These Scriptures there are many disagreements, some claim it is the name of God the father and others say it has to do with Baal.

כתב בעברית(מהקבלה!): יאקדונקי
שי


Others say they have connection with zohar (kaballa), and call him Yakedonki.I see a lot of SH connections with the Jewish religion than his own Christianity.
Convince me that the SH2 is connected with others and not be just a Spin Off, giving me the trading of worlds and the reason that James was marked to die or disappear. I believe that everyone has some sort of connection with the order. (my speculation) :flame:
 
 
 
 
PreviousNext


Return to Silent Hill 2



Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest