Onantschenko

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Born from a Wish. (Spoilers.)

Post by Onantschenko on Sun Jun 12, 2016 10:10 pm

The game itself is interpretive, as now, which we indicate a different path of the plot. The ' making of silent hill 2 ' is a documentary made during the process of creating the game. So the main developers put their inspiration about what they did, it makes sense.
An example: Masahiro Ito tells some of his inspirations to create the art of monsters and explains some aspects of them, like human characteristics.
So, Takayoshi Sato is the Character designer and Director CGI. He explains some features of Maria, applying aspects of a real person, and of course you couldn't miss him in the interview puts value in character 'Maria'. And in fact, Sato helped Hiroyuki Owaku who wrote the plot of the game.

I value the ' making of ' because they are the creators of the game, the comment or their statements have value too big, of course, to me. The ' making of ' shows that every corner of the game has a purpose behind :!:

Venithil wrote:
SH3 has billboards/posters with a black-haired stripper called Lady Maria


I know the poster that is in the Heaven's Night is an "easter egg", but the magazine is not an easter egg. You can find her on the third floor of Brookhaven hospital, in room S1.

Look:
REVEAL SPOILER
Image
Image


Venithil wrote:
3) There was indeed a real character called Lady Maria in Silent Hill once, and she is part of Maria as a sort of amalgam entity (I once wrote a hellishly long theory about this). In this case, James' and Mary's memories were piled up on the basis of an actual, living stripper, perhaps someone who comitted suicide in Heaven's Night (Maria considers suicide twice during Born from a Wish).


This "3" is interesting, indeed!
Makes sense, but where do you some concepts are a little strange, I've heard something like that, that James was a man who frequented these ordinary club, but James really is faithful to Mary (in reference to what I was told, not what you say, by the fact of not knowing what you think about the attitudes of James).
The suicide makes sense, a woman with a bad life, no reason to go on living. But does not match the beginning of the scenario born from the wish, Maria has has a strong fear of loneliness, pain and death. I believe she disappeared with the rest of the citizen, which for some reason is not explained (some built the city of shepherd's glen). But I consider valid the suicide of a dancer from the Club.

Venithil wrote:
Nothing in the game suggests that Mary is in any way alive at this point, however, and while there were theories that she died after being held at Brookhaven, I believe they've been debunked. Maria's repeated deaths do serve as a reminder of James' murder of his wife. This kind of plays together with Maria's insistence that she is alive and real (the town keeps reminding James it is not quite so).

I'm sorry, I ended up writing the wrong name, was to be Maria. I was a bit tired.

Venithil wrote:
In the game proper, Maria possesses memories it wouldn't make sense for James to have (but would make sense for Mary to have), suggesting that Mary's will, spirit, or imprint on Silent Hill itself might have had some influcence in forming her (or that she is indeed a form of reincarnation).


Ernest is the key to this, she has no memory of Mary. He is an occultist, maybe that's part of the elite of the order.
He's dead, he knows the city is infested with monsters and isolated from the world, and when Maria finds him, he asks: "But how can you say that it is this town that is insane? Perhaps it is we who are insane. Both of us... hopelessly insane.". There is a possibility of the plot characters suffer from serious psychological problems. The game has a story line almost completely different from the main series.

Ernest (I believe it to be a tool used by evil entities) probably introduced the memories of Mary on Maria. These events happen only because of him. She could commit suicide but abdicated the Act. This indicates what I said before, she's afraid of pain, loneliness and death, is a fully human aspect. Mary was dying and closed the world in a cocoon of pain.

Venithil wrote:
As for monsters, there are whole theories on why James can see one specific monster created by Angela's mind, but it's undeniable that of all the characters *only* Maria is confirmed to see (and fight) the very same monsters James sees, and only James and Ernest interact with Maria. Laura may not see monsters, but she likely is in some form of an Otherworld, and she never interacts with Maria even when there's a decent chance they could meet (Maria doesn't enter the Bowl-O-Rama and doesn't stop Laura from escaping). The latter is possibly because Maria on a subconscious level knows what Laura would see in her is quite different from what she'd like James to know about her, or simply because Laura is unable to interact with Maria at all.


James met Laura before arriving in Rosewater Park, Maria didn't know James was looking for a little girl. Maria makes an excuse not to enter the bowling, this is very questionable by the fact the city deserted, soon Laura runs away from James. Maria says she tried to stop her but had no success, looking tired. The only scene that Maria and James interact is when Laura rushes to the Brookhaven Hospital (Maria points toward Laura). Only one character who has no interaction with any other than James. Is Angela :!:

It makes no sense to the monsters trying to kill an illusion generated by James before he arrived in the city, and it wouldn't be necessary to have a scenario for it.
 
 
 
 
 
 

Otherworld

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Born from a Wish. (Spoilers.)

Post by Otherworld on Mon Jun 13, 2016 8:42 am

Onantschenko wrote:Answer 1 - my interpretation about the plot : This is due to the "Otherword" which is controlled by the ancient gods and angels of the cult of Silent hill. There are two possibilities, first: that Maria is in the real world and James in otherword or the second that Maria died at Brookhaven Hospital and is being controlled by the gods sadists or that she just is an illusion in otherword justifying the multiple deaths, James couldn't interact with her after these events (interact physically with her, except in the labyrinth). This is a question that intrigues me for a long time, I don't know if I know you answer about it, hehe!


James interacts with Maria multiple times and make no mistake, the only reason Maria regenerates multiple times is because she produced by James' delusions as a result of his inability to bear the weight of the crime of killing his wife. The cult has nothing to do with what's happening in Silent Hill 2.

BoLM quotes:

The town has become a great catalyst for the manifestation of peoples' unconscious minds. It appears to have become a place that beckons to those who hold darkness in their hearts.

Due to the appearance of the otherworld on a massive scale in the first game, the town has come to be a place that calls those who hold a profound darkness in their hearts. It seems that people with afflicted minds are easily drawn to the otherworld.

The town calls to those who bear the weight of some crime and shows them what is in their hearts.


It is completely impossible for Maria to be a real person. She regenerates multiple times and we know she cannot be seen by anyone other than James.

Onantschenko wrote:Answer 2 and 3 - my interpretation about the plot : She mentions only when it finds Ernest, he makes a quick analysis "-But how can you say that it is this town that is insane? Perhaps it is we who are insane. Both of us ... hopelessly insane. "we can relate to that Maria and Ernest suffers from insanity. Now things start to get interesting, there are two strong theories about Ernest, first that it is a kind of manifestation of the mind of James and the second is that he is a ghost of a real person. The second may indicate that he is a member of "the order", many books on religious concepts and one of the gods of Silent hill, and of course he speaks "-Maria, the Gods are here. You know it too. You were born in this town. "


So what we have established is that Maria is able to carry a conversation with a ghost. As we know Ernest is some type of spirit trapped in the mansion trying to bring his daughter back from the dead. This is just more evidence that Maria is product of the town power and not a real person. I mean she is a stripper, not a psychic.

Onantschenko wrote:I believe all the monsters can be seen by any of the characters except Laura.
An example: the Mannequin, this creature has a strong connotation sexual, to James is connected to sexual frustration, however, You can bind with Eddie, because he's fat and suffer prejudice of the woman, we can also bind with Angela that can represent the parts of the body that attracts male attention, Maria, Maria it is obvious that she was sexy dances. Laura is the biggest mystery of this game, only in the ending Leave "in the other she is not mentioned, and of course, she does not appear in Otherword.


This is completely up for debate and I tend to believe that separately, or at the same time, individuals on their own, or a general consensus collectively as a group ( cult ) or communally ( societal views as a whole ) can be manifested from the subconscious mind all at the same time by the power of the otherworld.

So in a sense, in the otherworld you can see what others see ..... and you cannot see what others see depending on the situation. Because we equally share views and at the same time we may have completely different opinions and outlooks on things as far as morality, ( etc ) as our own individual experiences shape our views.

Venithil wrote:To be fair, whatever entity James faces at the end of the journey is more meant to provide closure than to act as the person they're supposed to be, and is always demonized/represents the worst aspects of the person (Mary or Maria) that James 'fights'. In the Maria ending, it's a demonized version of Mary. In the other endings, its worth noting that while James thinks it is Maria, the person looks entirely like a healthy version of Mary. After multiple resurrections/manifestations, Maria also stops protesting so vehemently against James mistaking her for Mary, although starts back again in some of the endings.


In this case we are looking at only Maria, and whether she could be a real person. In all but one ending Maria is one you meet at the top of the stairs.

She knows you killed Mary - How ?

She is not a real person. She is another manifestation from James subconscious derived by the power of the otherworld.

I am all for great theories, but the fact remains that The Book of Lost Memories has already let us know that Maria is produced by James subconscious.
Image
 
 
 
 
 

Onantschenko

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Born from a Wish. (Spoilers.)

Post by Onantschenko on Mon Jun 13, 2016 8:23 pm

James interacts with Maria in the real world until the transition to the ' otherworld '. After she died in the basement of the Brookhaven Hospital, only two types of interaction that are in the ' otherworld ', exactly in the labyrinths of the Historical Society. And note that she's with marks on his face, ("some people say it was the pyramid head which killed her, but I believe it is a disease just like that would kill Mary"). After this no more physical interaction.
There is a possibility that this Maria is in the otherworld is an illusion, can be separated from James (my hypothesis).
I think we all agree that Maria was used as a tool for torturing James.

There is facts about the occult of ancient gods, Xuchilbara, but the book that Maria is misspelled the name is of the goddess "Xuchilpaba", look at the fragment:

Lost Memories book found in the Baldwin Mansion.
REVEAL SPOILER
"The people wept in fear and joy
at the reunion, but my faith in the
salvation of Xuchilpaba did not
waver."


Another article about the old gods and the fog: Crimson Ceremony (complete)!
REVEAL SPOILER
"Speak.
I am the Crimson One.
The lies and the mist are
not they, but I.
You all know that I am One.
Yes, and the One is I.

Believers hearken to me!
Twenty score men and
seven thousand beasts.
Heed my words and speaketh them
to all, that they shall ever be
obeyed even under the light of
the proud and merciless sun.

I shall bring down bitter vengeance
upon thee and thou shalt suffer
my eternal wrath.

The beauty of the withering flower
and the last struggles of the dying
man, they are my blessings.

Thou shalt ever call upon me and
all that is me in the place that is
silent.

Oh, proud fragrance of life which
flies towards the heart. Oh, cup
which brims with the whitest of
wine, it is in thee that all begins."


Objects that are used for one of the rituals are found as a final bonus for James, but if the scenario Born from a wish is actually probably true, assuming the "Rebirth" ending is false. But the objects are also named and used in SH4 by Walter Sullivan. The game also brings something about the "Valtiel Sect", and some books of black magic, some game shows are real, as The Chronicle of Agrippa, On Sacrifice and the Art of Demon-Summoning and The Fallen Angels of Mercy and Favor.
Of course, the game has change in the plot with the main game.
Image

Maria is materialized in the real world, some posters are found in the bathroom. I believe that this only makes sense if she were only found in the otherworld. And by the way, Born from a wish scenario would be completely unnecessary for the game.

The mansion belongs to Ernest, there is a story behind it. He was a citizen of the town of Silent hill. He went into a State of depression for the death of his daughter, he probably committed suicide. SH3 game contributed to this theory, look at the text:
Occult Magazine on SH3:
REVEAL SPOILER
"The souls of those who died
suddenly by suicide or accident
don't realize they're dead.
Sometimes they stay put and
haunt that particular place.
These spirits have lost their human
senses and memories and can only
keep replaying the pain and sadness
of the moment they died.
The pain can get so bad that they
turn to humans for salvation -- or
they begrudge humans their lives.
At such times they can possess
humans.
Places known as "famous suicide
spots" or "high-accident areas"
are often to blame.
You should be careful when
approaching such locations,
especially on the day or at the
time the death occurred.
That is, if you don't want it
to happen to you, too..."


There is another saying that Ernest was killed by some lying figure, but I don't think it is his body that this at the entrance of the mansion.
Image

Another point is a message that someone wrote on the wall of the mansion next to Blue Creek Apartment.
"Keep out of haunted mansion!"
Image

The Member Venithil put an interesting argument about a possible suicide.
This book "the book of Lost Memories" is generic, not a kind guide for beginners in the history of the game. It doesn't specify how the scenarios and referecias mythology of the order. I don't see anything special.
I'm liking the against points is good to exchange ideas about the character Maria.
 
 
 
 
 
 

Otherworld

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Born from a Wish. (Spoilers.)

Post by Otherworld on Tue Jun 14, 2016 8:56 am

Onantschenko wrote:James interacts with Maria in the real world until the transition to the ' otherworld '. After she died in the basement of the Brookhaven Hospital, only two types of interaction that are in the ' otherworld ', exactly in the labyrinths of the Historical Society. And note that she's with marks on his face, ("some people say it was the pyramid head which killed her, but I believe it is a disease just like that would kill Mary"). After this no more physical interaction.
There is a possibility that this Maria is in the otherworld is an illusion, can be separated from James (my hypothesis).
I think we all agree that Maria was used as a tool for torturing James.

There is facts about the occult of ancient gods, Xuchilbara, but the book that Maria is misspelled the name is of the goddess "Xuchilpaba", look at the fragment:

Lost Memories book found in the Baldwin Mansion.
REVEAL SPOILER
"The people wept in fear and joy
at the reunion, but my faith in the
salvation of Xuchilpaba did not
waver."


Another article about the old gods and the fog: Crimson Ceremony (complete)!
REVEAL SPOILER
"Speak.
I am the Crimson One.
The lies and the mist are
not they, but I.
You all know that I am One.
Yes, and the One is I.

Believers hearken to me!
Twenty score men and
seven thousand beasts.
Heed my words and speaketh them
to all, that they shall ever be
obeyed even under the light of
the proud and merciless sun.

I shall bring down bitter vengeance
upon thee and thou shalt suffer
my eternal wrath.

The beauty of the withering flower
and the last struggles of the dying
man, they are my blessings.

Thou shalt ever call upon me and
all that is me in the place that is
silent.

Oh, proud fragrance of life which
flies towards the heart. Oh, cup
which brims with the whitest of
wine, it is in thee that all begins."


Objects that are used for one of the rituals are found as a final bonus for James, but if the scenario Born from a wish is actually probably true, assuming the "Rebirth" ending is false. But the objects are also named and used in SH4 by Walter Sullivan. The game also brings something about the "Valtiel Sect", and some books of black magic, some game shows are real, as The Chronicle of Agrippa, On Sacrifice and the Art of Demon-Summoning and The Fallen Angels of Mercy and Favor.
Of course, the game has change in the plot with the main game.
Image

Maria is materialized in the real world, some posters are found in the bathroom. I believe that this only makes sense if she were only found in the otherworld. And by the way, Born from a wish scenario would be completely unnecessary for the game.


In both Born from a Wish and Silent Hill 2 Maria is only found in the otherworld. When I say Maria I am referring to the Maria seen below:

Image

You do not ever see this ^ Maria in the real world. That is because she does not exist. You see Maria in the otherworld where you are able to find all of the monsters directly related to the reason James is called to town. This is because at the start of both Silent Hill 2 and Born from a Wish .... you are already in the otherworld. Illustrated by the fact that James has no idea that he killed his wife at the start of SH2, and Maria is battling James' manifestations at the Start of BFAW.

I am very aware of the White Chrism found in Born from a Wish. It is there to explain the Rebirth ending. Only in this scenario does it loosely tie itself to the cult.

Other than Abstract Daddy, all monsters in SH2 are manifestations of James subconscious.

Onantschenko wrote:The mansion belongs to Ernest, there is a story behind it. He was a citizen of the town of Silent hill. He went into a State of depression for the death of his daughter, he probably committed suicide. SH3 game contributed to this theory, look at the text:
Occult Magazine on SH3:
REVEAL SPOILER
"The souls of those who died
suddenly by suicide or accident
don't realize they're dead.
Sometimes they stay put and
haunt that particular place.
These spirits have lost their human
senses and memories and can only
keep replaying the pain and sadness
of the moment they died.
The pain can get so bad that they
turn to humans for salvation -- or
they begrudge humans their lives.
At such times they can possess
humans.
Places known as "famous suicide
spots" or "high-accident areas"
are often to blame.
You should be careful when
approaching such locations,
especially on the day or at the
time the death occurred.
That is, if you don't want it
to happen to you, too..."


There is another saying that Ernest was killed by some lying figure, but I don't think it is his body that this at the entrance of the mansion.
Image

Another point is a message that someone wrote on the wall of the mansion next to Blue Creek Apartment.
"Keep out of haunted mansion!"
Image

The Member Venithil put an interesting argument about a possible suicide.
This book "the book of Lost Memories" is generic, not a kind guide for beginners in the history of the game. It doesn't specify how the scenarios and referecias mythology of the order. I don't see anything special.
I'm liking the against points is good to exchange ideas about the character Maria.


The bottom line is that Maria (the blonde one above) was produced by James' delusions as a result of his inability to bear the weight of the crime of killing his wife. It is established in the third game that her model was a dancer at the club Heaven's Night.

At no time during the events in Silent Hill 2 or Born from a Wish are you in the "real world" Both Maria and James are in the otherworld the entire time.

At the end of SH2 Maria knows what she is and her real purpose. She tells James as much in the In Water ending:

Maria SH2 quote:

Maria: What do you mean? But I can be yours... I'll be here for you forever. And I'll never yell at you or make you feel bad.
Image
 
 
 
 
 

Onantschenko

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Born from a Wish. (Spoilers.)

Post by Onantschenko on Tue Jun 14, 2016 6:52 pm

Otherworld wrote:
I am very aware of the White Chrism found in Born from a Wish. It is there to explain the Rebirth ending. Only in this scenario does it loosely tie itself to the cult.


No my friend!
I explored the scenario (the Letter From Silent Heaven) in 6:52 hours, there's stuff about the cult of the ancient gods.
Examples:
James found occult books in Toluca prison.
James finds the book "Crimson ceremony" in the small library of the Lakeview hotel.
James is the picture on the "Valtiel Sect".

Otherworld wrote:
You do not ever see this ^ Maria in the real world. That is because she does not exist. You see Maria in the otherworld where you are able to find all of the monsters directly related to the reason James is called to town. This is because at the start of both Silent Hill 2 and Born from a Wish .... you are already in the otherworld. Illustrated by the fact that James has no idea that he killed his wife at the start of SH2, and Maria is battling James' manifestations at the Start of BFAW.

You are distorting my argument, or interpreted in the wrong way.
As it is possible to isolate the character and try to understand it, doesn't make sense, it's like trying to understand James without Mary.

The monster Abstract Daddy is a creation of sexualized acts that Angela suffered from his father, that's a fact. James can see the bodies that Eddie says have killed. The Designer and illustrator Masahiro Ito answered some questions about Eddie: "Eddie killed someone other than dog? Answer: Eddie has never killed anybody.

As you affirms that the world in which James is at the beginning of the game is the otherworld?
The game shows every real-world transitions to the otherworld. Another point is Laura, as she can interact with James and Eddie in the otherworld, and besides, she'd meet monsters that are linked with the mind of the victims of Silent Hill (James. Eddie and Angela). If you say this, it doesn't make sense to mention Laura can't see the monster because of pure heart. Entered in contradiction!

The city collapsed, people mysteriously disappearing, others being killed by strange creatures and others who left to found other cities. People simply disappeared without a trace of his whereabouts. Silent Hill managed to be a great work of mystery in every series.
Last edited by Onantschenko on Wed Jun 15, 2016 12:21 pm.
 
 
 
 
 
 

SilencedSpirit

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Born from a Wish. (Spoilers.)

Post by SilencedSpirit on Wed Jun 15, 2016 4:23 am

At no point in SH2 do we see the real world (except probably in the Leave Ending). From the moment you gain control of James outside the rest stop at the beginning, you are in an alternate plane of reality (generally referred to as the Otherworld).

Not a single character in the series who has had previous interaction with the town (James, Douglas, Henry, etc.) has mentioned the town being abandoned. In fact, they seem to imply the opposite. The town has been abandoned in the distant past, (BoLM confirms this) but it is not presently abandoned. If it were, how were Mary and James able to enjoy a pleasant vacation there?
 
 
 
 
 
 

Otherworld

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Born from a Wish. (Spoilers.)

Post by Otherworld on Wed Jun 15, 2016 9:48 am

Onantschenko wrote:
Otherworld wrote:
I am very aware of the White Chrism found in Born from a Wish. It is there to explain the Rebirth ending. Only in this scenario does it loosely tie itself to the cult.


No my friend!
I explored the scenario (the Letter From Silent Heaven) in 6:52 hours, there's stuff about the cult of the ancient gods.
Examples:
James is occult books in Toluca prison.
James finds the book "Crimson ceremony" in the small library of the Lakeview hotel.
James is the picture on the "Valtiel Sect".


Nobody is disputing this^. It is meant to give further explanation to the Rebirth ending. And btw, we find James in pictures, as well as other future happenings depicted in many pictures throughout SH2.

Onantschenko wrote:
Otherworld wrote:
You do not ever see this ^ Maria in the real world. That is because she does not exist. You see Maria in the otherworld where you are able to find all of the monsters directly related to the reason James is called to town. This is because at the start of both Silent Hill 2 and Born from a Wish .... you are already in the otherworld. Illustrated by the fact that James has no idea that he killed his wife at the start of SH2, and Maria is battling James' manifestations at the Start of BFAW.

You are distorting my argument, or interpreted in the wrong way.
As it is possible to isolate the character and try to understand it, doesn't make sense, it's like trying to understand James without Mary.


No, I am simply letting you know that the manifestation that is known to us as Maria does not exist in the real world. To understand the character you have to know it's origins. Maria is produced by James' subconscious in the otherworld. That is why this scenario is called Born from a Wish.

Onantschenko wrote:The monster Abstract Daddy is a creation of sexualized acts that Angela suffered from his father, that's a fact. James can see the bodies that Eddie says have killed. The Designer and illustrator Masahiro Ito answered some questions about Eddie: "Eddie killed someone other than dog? Answer: Eddie has never killed anybody.


^Agreed.

Onantschenko wrote:As you affirms that the world in which James is at the beginning of the game is the otherworld?


Where else is he? As written above, there is nowhere else James could be. He has no recollection of murdering his wife, there are monsters (manifestations) threatening him at every corner, and the town is shrouded in fog and darkness.

Onantschenko wrote:The game shows every real-world transitions to the otherworld. Another point is Laura, as she can interact with James and Eddie in the otherworld, and besides, she'd meet monsters that are linked with the mind of the victims of Silent Hill (James. Eddie and Angela). If you say this, it doesn't make sense to mention Laura can't see the monster because of pure heart. Entered in contradiction!


Please give me one example of a transition from the real world to the otherworld in SH2.

Laura is in the otherworld, that's how she interacts with both James and Eddie, but her otherworld is a pleasant empty town where an orphan (loneliness) is able to do whatever she wants and go where ever she wants. That includes drawing all over walls, playing with perfectly placed teddy bears. Having a set of keys to a hospital for the mentally ill. Playing with expensive grand pianos, etc, etc, etc ......

BoLM quote:

Laura: Of all the characters, she is the only one who does not hold any darkness in her heart. It may be that she came to Silent Hill looking for Mary. To her the town appears to be normal; she does not see any monsters, nor does she see Maria.


Onantschenko wrote:The city collapsed, people mysteriously disappearing, others being killed by strange creatures and others who left to found other cities. People simply disappeared without a trace of his whereabouts. Silent Hill managed to be a great work of mystery in every series.


The town of Silent Hill, at the time of Silent Hill 2' happenings is very much a inhabited town, with towns people etc like the post you see below.

SilencedSpirit wrote:At no point in SH2 do we see the real world (except probably in the Leave Ending). From the moment you gain control of James outside the rest stop at the beginning, you are in an alternate plane of reality (generally referred to as the Otherworld).

Not a single character in the series who has had previous interaction with the town (James, Douglas, Henry, etc.) has mentioned the town being abandoned. In fact, they seem to imply the opposite. The town has been abandoned in the distant past, (BoLM confirms this) but it is not presently abandoned. If it were, how were Mary and James able to enjoy a pleasant vacation there?


^Greeting and Salutations SilencedSpirit.
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DipDop

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Born from a Wish. (Spoilers.)

Post by DipDop on Wed Jun 15, 2016 1:28 pm

The original post is 10 years old. I'm having future shock.
 
 
 
 
 
 

TheEyeofNight

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Born from a Wish. (Spoilers.)

Post by TheEyeofNight on Wed Jun 15, 2016 2:04 pm

Otherworld wrote:^Greeting and Salutations SilencedSpirit.


Thanks! Sorry about the username confusion. This will be my primary account.
I had some difficulty creating an account the first time and I only just realized the confirmation email went to my spam folder.
 
 
 
 
 
 

Onantschenko

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Born from a Wish. (Spoilers.)

Post by Onantschenko on Wed Jun 15, 2016 2:54 pm

SilencedSpirit wrote:
Not a single character in the series who has had previous interaction with the town (James, Douglas, Henry, etc.) has mentioned the town being abandoned. In fact, they seem to imply the opposite. The town has been abandoned in the distant past, (BoLM confirms this) but it is not presently abandoned. If it were, how were Mary and James able to enjoy a pleasant vacation there?


Cool, but you could put the link, please. I speak another language and don't understand some abbreviations of words. I am quite busy with my work and studies. Sorry if I wrote something wrong or out of context. Sometimes I enter the forum on my work or home at night. :cut:

Silent Hill 2 is separated from the stories of the Silent Hill 1 and 3. The context is another. However the SH2 has more connections with the SH4 the room and the SH homecoming.
The SH4, Walter Sullivan uses the objects that are required to make the resurrection Mary James. James is a magazine that tells what Walter Sullivan did and he had delusions of persecution of a "Red Devil", this entity is Jimmy Stone, a priest of the Valtiel sect. I believe the cell where James picks up the wax doll is a reference or place that Walter used in the otherworld to commit other murders, since he could not be stopped.

Already in SH homecoming, there are people who have left the town of Silent Hill and founded Shepherd's Glen. The city desecrated by the ancient gods (Xuchilbara, Lobsel Vith, Valtiel or Samael) "the order", I believe that is the spirit of fog (Xuchilbara in Crimson ceremony). The sacrifices made and does not form the whole town got into a chaos (people disappearing without leaving traces and insane monsters). The fog is not natural in the city.

Now is there any interesting, the name of the protagonist: Alex Shepherd. Now look at the name of Mary: Mary Shepherd-Sunderland. This name is mystery, but makes sense of Mary stayed sick, maybe she was marked for death. This is just a hypothesis. Another point is the pyramid head that appears (to me) that strengthens the idea that Mary didn't get the disease naturally. * for me *
Some people hated to see the pyramid head in another game.
SH homecomming plot is very similar to the SH2, in several respects.

James and Mary does not have a history of origin, since unlike Eddie, Angela and Laura that have a little story about their lives.
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TheEyeofNight

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Post by TheEyeofNight on Wed Jun 15, 2016 5:23 pm

Onantschenko wrote:Cool, but you could put the link, please. I speak another language and don't understand some abbreviations of words. I am quite busy with my work and studies. Sorry if I wrote something wrong or out of context.


I was referring to the detailed timeline in Book of Lost Memories, which mentions the town being abandoned at certain points in its history.

Onantschenko wrote:Already in SH homecoming, there are people who have left the town of Silent Hill and founded Shepherd's Glen. The city desecrated by the ancient gods (Xuchilbara, Lobsel Vith, Valtiel or Samael) "the order", I believe that is the spirit of neova (Xuchilbara in Crimson ceremony). The sacrifices made and does not form the whole town got into a chaos (people disappearing without leaving traces and insane monsters). The fog is not natural in the city.


Yes, some people left Silent Hill and founded Shephard's Glen. But that only accounts for four families. It doesn't suggest that Silent Hill is abandoned.

Onantschenko wrote:James and Mary does not have a history of origin, since unlike Eddie, Angela and Laura that have a little story about their lives.


Could you clarify what you mean by this?
I was saying that Mary and James vacationed in Silent Hill three years before the events of Silent Hill 2. This would seem to imply that the town is absolutely not abandoned. Henry from Silent Hill 4 also mentions visiting the town frequently. Douglas from Silent Hill 3 talks about how "messed up" the town is but never once mentions it being abandoned
 
 
 
 
 
 

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Post by Onantschenko on Wed Jun 15, 2016 11:12 pm

It was probably left because of the cult of ancient gods. One of the cities that the game was inspired by is the Centralia, heard says that there is some people who live there.
The game suggests that much of the population left town.

Could you clarify what you mean by this?
I was saying that Mary and James vacationed in Silent Hill three years before the events of Silent Hill 2. This would seem to imply that the town is absolutely not abandoned. Henry from Silent Hill 4 also mentions visiting the town frequently. Douglas from Silent Hill 3 talks about how "messed up" the town is but never once mentions it being abandoned


I didn't express myself properly about the story of James and Mary.

The game deepens about life of the characters James and Mary, hardly know their past. This is match them with Mary, who says only a small story of profession and some information about the character's psychological state (at that time).
Angela, Eddie and Laura has a brief explanation of the past.
The main characters have the same level of information that Mary (which is regarded as a "manifestation").
Life story of Maria = James and Mary (same level of information about their live).
The lives of personalities is low in information, but it opens to my hypothesis about the SH homecoming and Mary.
 
 
 
 
 
 

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Post by TheEyeofNight on Thu Jun 16, 2016 2:19 am

Onantschenko wrote:It was probably left because of the cult of ancient gods. One of the cities that the game was inspired by is the Centralia, heard says that there is some people who live there.
The game suggests that much of the population left town.


The movie was inspired by Centralia, not the games.

Where does the game suggest that the town is mostly abandoned?

Onantschenko wrote:The game deepens about life of the characters James and Mary, hardly know their past. This is match them with Mary, who says only a small story of profession and some information about the character's psychological state (at that time).
Angela, Eddie and Laura has a brief explanation of the past.
The main characters have the same level of information that Mary (which is regarded as a "manifestation").
Life story of Maria = James and Mary (same level of information about their live).
The lives of personalities is low in information, but it opens to my hypothesis about the SH homecoming and Mary.


I'm still not quite sure what you're talking about here, or what it has to do with what we're talking about. There is a language barrier, so that may be why. Sorry.
 
 
 
 
 
 

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Post by Otherworld on Thu Jun 16, 2016 9:22 am

I am pretty sure when Tomm Hulett was asked about this relation between Alex and Mary in an interview, he said that he wasn't entirely sure, he believes it is probably a coincidence.
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Post by Naroon on Thu Jun 16, 2016 12:27 pm

The game suggests that much of the population left town.


Where?
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Post by Onantschenko on Thu Jun 16, 2016 1:50 pm

The game is inspired by several cities, some real and others abandoned. Centralia is just one example. The film is very bad.
Look at this video, is about a place that developers used it as inspiration. Look at the fog, and the apartments, the place was a sulphur extraction mine in Japan. :flame:
Matsuo mine


What can help is the fact that someone talk that the game is all the time in the ' otherworld ', for me it's bullshit. How Laura can interact with James, Eddie and Maria (in a small cutscene) in the ' otherworld ', as Laura can come into place that are closed to people?! In a hospital, you can't walk anywhere.

Dialogue in the Brookhaven hospital and Rosewater Park:
REVEAL SPOILER
Brookhaven hospital:
"James: We can talk about this later. This is no place for a kid. There are all sorts of strange things around here... I can’t believe you haven’t even gotten a scratch on you.
Laura: Why should I?"

Rosewater Park:
James: What’s a little girl like you doing here anyway?
Little girl: Huh? Are you blind or something?"


James history:
REVEAL SPOILER
James Sunderland is the protagonist of Silent Hill 2. As the game begins, James states that his wife, Mary Shepherd-Sunderland, has been dead for three years. Regardless, James has received a mysterious letter in Mary's handwriting, stating that she is waiting for him in their "special place", somewhere in Silent Hill. When James arrives at the town, he becomes ensnared in a series of bizarre and nightmarish events which force him to question his sanity, memory and personality

James was originally envisioned with having two different sides to his personality.

Maria describes James as kind; Mary, in her letter to Laura, describes him as a little surly and says he does not talk much, but is sweet underneath his enigmatic exterior. James is typically courteous to other characters he meets in Silent Hill.

James began to "drink a fair bit" to escape his pain and loneliness, but it never changed anything. James felt sexual frustration, but felt prevented from pursuing it by his marriage to Mary. During the drive to Silent Hill, James' mind has some serious psychological repression, apparently not looking in the backseat for some portion of the drive, or even the entirety of it. Sometime before James arrives, his mind snaps from the trauma of killing Mary and he represses the memory.


Mary history:
REVEAL SPOILER
Mary Shepherd-Sunderland is the deceased wife of James Sunderland. The couple had vacationed in Silent Hill a few years prior to the events of Silent Hill 2. Mary was a kind, sweet young woman who spent the last moments of her life in emotional turmoil, distress and anguish after being stricken with a terminal disease.

Not too long after their vacation, Mary fell ill with an unspecified incurable, terminal disease and was bedridden in a hospital. She was given a maximum of three years to live, which she was forced to spend in the hospital. The disease had altered her skin tone to a sickly shade of tan and promoted hair loss, dissolving any traces of physical beauty she once possessed.

Although physically dead, Mary lives on as James's delusion. Repressing the memory of murdering Mary, James believes that he received a letter from Mary beckoning him to come to Silent Hill, where she is waiting for him in their "special place". He uses this as the basis for a delusion that Mary is still alive. He is also convinced that Mary died three years ago, when in reality, she was still alive a few days ago.


Maria history:
REVEAL SPOILER
She is nearly identical to James's late wife, Mary, in almost every physical aspect, although her appearance and personality are more sexually extroverted. Maria is a very enigmatic character and could be seen as some sort of reincarnation or ghostly form of Mary, as a supernatural, and possibly sinister creature of unknown origin, or some combination of these. At times, she seems to possess Mary's memories.

The instruction manual describes her as the opposite of Mary, "cheerful and energetic", but she is also rather dark and moody. Her personality is highly unpredictable; sometimes she is fearful and clingy, but she sometimes speaks tenderly to James and flirts with him, and at other times she is more teasing or even cruel. In the beginning of Born from a Wish, Maria reveals she hates being alone, and that she's afraid of death and being in pain.

Despite her actions, Maria is not evil or malevolent. In fact, Maria seems to be rather sweet at times, calling James kind before she met him when Ernest Baldwin warns her, being worried about Laura being surrounded by monsters, and in the "Maria" ending going as far as to ask about Mary. This may be as part of the "trap" or, perhaps, a part of Mary's personality that is shown through her. However, in Born from a Wish, she is self-aware or sentient to an extent, and seems to be helping Ernest out of her own desires. Because of this, the line between Maria's free will and her duty as a manifestation of James is quite blurred.

Maria may be having an existential crisis, seeking purpose and meaning. Maria believes James may have this meaning despite being warned by Ernest not to seek him out, and refrains from suicide because of it.


There is coincidence in the texts, both do not report many things about the past of the characters. That's what I was talking the whole time.

Any other texts are pure speculation of the players!!

Otherworld says: I am pretty sure when Tomm Hulett was asked about this relation between Alex and Mary in an interview, he said that he wasn't entirely sure, he believes it is probably a coincidence.


If that really was an accident, there's no real ending on SH2(so, the game is not connected with any of the serie, it discards a lot of information from other games), and can be interpreted in any way (This can also indicate what I was talking about the city being alone, because there is no connection with the SH3, SH4 and SH homecoming). I think many things are to be an unsolved mysteries.
:cut:
 
 
 
 
 
 

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Post by TheEyeofNight on Thu Jun 16, 2016 3:41 pm

Onantschenko wrote:The game is inspired by several cities, some real and others abandoned. Centralia is just one example. The film is very bad.
Look at this video, is about a place that developers used it as inspiration. Look at the fog, and the apartments, the place was a sulphur extraction mine in Japan.


None of these places have ever been confirmed as being inspirations to the series (to my knowledge). Whether you think the film is bad is irrelevant (I personally like the movie). Centralia is confirmed to have been an inspiration to the film. In fact, Christophe Gans originally wanted to film there.

Onantschenko wrote:What can help is the fact that someone talk that the game is all the time in the ' otherworld ', for me it's bullshit. How Laura can interact with James, Eddie and Maria (in a small cutscene) in the ' otherworld ', as Laura can come into place that are closed to people?! In a hospital, you can't walk anywhere.


It is my opinion that Laura was drawn into the Otherworld as well because she is relevant to James' situation. The same thing happens with Harry and Cybil in SH1, and Douglas in SH3. Only, Laura's version of the Otherworld would look fairly normal and nonthreatening to her because she's innocent.
 
 
 
 
 
 

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Post by Otherworld on Thu Jun 16, 2016 6:12 pm

Onantschenko wrote:What can help is the fact that someone talk that the game is all the time in the ' otherworld ', for me it's bullshit. How Laura can interact with James, Eddie and Maria (in a small cutscene) in the ' otherworld ', as Laura can come into place that are closed to people?! In a hospital, you can't walk anywhere.



If you choose to interpret the game in a certain way, that's fine. All the power to you. But please do not call the interpretations of others "bullshit". In no way am I trying to bullshit about anything. I am simply replying to your posts to the best of my knowledge as well as using the data provided by The Book of lost Memories.

You have not a answered my question about giving me an example of an Otherworld transition. When does that occur in Silent Hill 2?

Laura can interact with James and Eddie (she never interacts with Maria) because she is in the otherworld. It is really that simple.

If you choose not to believe that James is in the otherworld the entire time we play the game that's fine. That's your opinion.

But if that is the case, please tell me when he is in the real world? At what point in the game is James not in the otherworld?
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Post by Onantschenko on Thu Jun 16, 2016 10:25 pm

TheEyeofNight wrote:None of these places have ever been confirmed as being inspirations to the series (to my knowledge)

I agree with you!

TheEyeofNight wrote:It is my opinion that Laura was drawn into the Otherworld as well because she is relevant to James' situation. The same thing happens with Harry and Cybil in SH1, and Douglas in SH3. Only, Laura's version of the Otherworld would look fairly normal and nonthreatening to her because she's innocent.

I don't know, but I find that very strange. As a little girl is walking lonely town, especially in a hospital at night. Very confusing. Is your opinion, I respect. :?

Otherworld wrote:If you choose to interpret the game in a certain way, that's fine. All the power to you. But please do not call the interpretations of others "bullshit". In no way am I trying to bullshit about anything. I am simply replying to your posts to the best of my knowledge as well as using the data provided by The Book of lost Memories.

I believe that purpose of SH2 is be mysterious. A wise choice of Konami!

You need not take to the side of the offense, I didn't come here to offend anyone. I'm not the owner of the truth, I just lost a little bit of patience because of this book (I told you about him, what I think of him).

You can believe what you want, my goal is to know against you points about my theory (probably other people have the same idea).



Otherworld wrote:You have not a answered my question about giving me an example of an Otherworld transition. When does that occur in Silent Hill 2?
Laura can interact with James and Eddie (she never interacts with Maria) because she is in the otherworld. It is really that simple.
If you choose not to believe that James is in the otherworld the entire time we play the game that's fine. That's your opinion.
But if that is the case, please tell me when he is in the real world? At what point in the game is James not in the otherworld?


The first transition from the real world to the ' otherworld ' is after the fight against the flesh lip (Brookhaven hospital), the world back to normal when James kills Eddie. James back to the port where you get a boat and go to the Lakeview hotel.
At hotel James look at the videotape, he remember what actually did with Mary, after this the real world back to the ' otherworld '.
Real-world colors are more vivid. Already the ' otherworld ' are dark colors and physical laws are violated.
You can believe what you want, but if you ask me, I will answer you.
I'm not going to use more terms that could be offensive. I have some thing to show, but not now.

This is a complex game to understand, I've been at this for four years looking for information on my free time.
 
 
 
 
 
 

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Post by Naroon on Thu Jun 16, 2016 10:58 pm

None of those are "real world" transitions, though. The whole game takes place in the Otherworld with the only *potential* exception being the end of the Leave ending, and even that is purely speculation because there's no way to verify it. The Otherworld, as every other game in the series has shown, can and does take on numerous different "forms" and this can be influenced directly by the state of mind of the person(s) experiencing it or perpetuating it. The town isn't an abandoned perma-fog hellhole like it is in the Otherworld, so there's no moment when we're controlling James on his journey that he ever transitions back to the real world.

As for Laura, she is definitely in the Otherworld the whole game because she is able to wander through the streets vandalizing the walls without being noticed/punished, running through apartment complexes without being noticed/punished, and even manages to maneuver through the hospital and somehow gain access to doors and keys without being spotted/punished (this example is the biggest giveaway that she's not in the real world because there is NO WAY she could ever get away with this in the real world at any time of day.)

As to the "why" of Laura being in the Otherworld, it's because she has a different sort of darkness in her heart, and it's the darkness of loneliness. We know she is an orphan, who hitched a ride to the town with Eddie of all people (this is seen in the opening montage video when the game is booted up.) Her goal was to go to Silent Hill to try to find Mary because she was unaware she had died and was the closest she had to a parental/mother figure. Mary had even expressed her desire to adopt Laura if she weren't sick. Laura's darkness is the pain of being alone, something she must be enduring in her otherwise saccharine version of the Otherworld, one which is devoid of adults who could bring her down and stop her free-spirited vagrancy. Her darkness is one that could be felt by any adult or adolescent, yet she sees no monsters because she is innocent as she is a child and hasn't committed any crimes or feels like she deserves punishment, which are the afflictions of the three primary adult characters in James, Eddie, and Angela.

Thus this easily and clearly explains why Laura can interact with the rest of the cast, save Maria for reasons already explained. Believing that the town is abandoned in the real world or that the real world appears in the game at all or that Laura isn't in the Otherworld are all beliefs that introduced numerous plot-holes and logical fallacies that make no sense. At no point in SH2 do any of the characters ever interact with someone who is in the real world. So if Laura were in the real world, how would she be interacting with James and Eddie?
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