Lilith

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Post by Lilith on Tue Jul 12, 2016 2:21 am

I am aware of Ishtar as I run a Mesopotamian blog. Lilith is not associated in Hebrew tribes and they did not worship Ishtar. The idea of Lilitu as Ishtar's handmaiden comes from Babylonian and earlier Sumerian texts. The Hebrews are not Mesopotamian though they have influence.

Samael is from the medieval European Jewish lore. He is NOT found in ancient lore, unless someone counts him as Satan. In any case, Jewish views of Satan are radically different than Christianity. In Judaism, Satan works for God and is not seen as a big mranie anti-thesis. He works for God as an angel of death. Some versions of the myth Lilith is married to Ashmodai not Samael, who is a later figure. The Zohar attempts to explain the contradictions.

Lilith is also only Adam's wife in medieval European Jewish lore. Most stories you associate with her nowadays is from that time period NOT ancient time periods. Lilith was never mentioned in conjunction with Ishtar until more recent times when archaeology discovered how to read Sumerian and Babylonian.

Are you Mexican? Xuchil is from a dialect of Nahuatl. Xochitl was the original word and is in the name of two Aztec gods,(Ahuiateteo) male and female: Xochipilli and Xochiquetzal. Flowers are associatrd with death, sex, and the underworld, but are gender neutral in that culture.

Samael is not the God of the Order. Samael is not associated with the sun nor is female. The "Mark of Samael" in Silent Hill 1 is merely a red herring by Dahlia, confirmed in the Koshiki guide book.

I can cite sources if you need this.
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Post by Onantschenko on Thu Jul 14, 2016 8:14 pm

It was common for people to compare the gods of other peoples with demons of its folklore, example is the Christianity that was condemning the pagans as Satanists. The Hebrew people were doing this with the other gods of regions near their cities. One of these gods are Baal and Astarte (is the Hellenized form of the Middle Eastern goddess Ishtar, worshipped from the Bronze Age through classical antiquity.) which were the cities of Sidon, tyre and Byblos.

I don't see the relevance of the year of the works, if is medieval or ancient times.

The name lilītu is referenced in the religions of Mesopotamia found written in cuneiform texts of Sumer, Akkad, Assyria, and Babylonia.

Lilith has many characteristics of the goddesses of Mesopotamia, and of course, the Hebrews were kept and captivity in Babylonia.

Lilith is also mentioned in the old testament, Genesis (2:18) and Isaiah (34:14), according to the manuscript of Ben Sira tells the story of Lilith to Nebuchadnezzar of Babylonia.

In the Epic of Gilgamesh, Gilgamesh and Enki du, together go through various missions, which upset the gods; first go to the Cedar Mountains, where defeated Humbaba, its monstrous guardian, and then kill the Bull of heaven, which the goddess Ishtar had to punish Gilgamesh for not giving in to their sexual desires.

There is a lot of divergence of interpretation on this aspect of the goddesses of Mesopotamia and Lilith.

In SH1, the final boss is called Incubus. Lilith had 100 children per day, when sucubus women and Incubus when men in Hebrew mythology.

Samael It is a malevolent god with limitless destruction power with the intent to destroy the Real World to punish humankind for their sins.

I'm not Mexican, I'm from South America, Brazil. I live in the southern region of the country where it borders with Uruguay.
 
 
 
 
 
 

Lilith

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Post by Lilith on Thu Jul 14, 2016 11:54 pm

There is no evidence Lilith was ever a god. People have made claims but the archaeological record proves the contrary.
http://margelle.org/aboutgoddess/page73/page73.html


The relevance is a big deal because it's bronze age vs middle age humans. Hebrews =/= Jews in Europe.

Liilitu is similar ro Ishtar's kililli form and the demon goddess Lamashtu. This however, does not mean Lilith goddess in ancient times. There is NO evidence she was worshiped in ancient times, on the contrary people were afraid of her snd made magical objects to rid themselves of her. She is worshiped in modern times but this is an entirely different matter.

The Alphabet of Ben Sira is likely satire and records a small bit of folklore. People don't take the text seriously now, especially if you examine it. It's not canon. The epic of Gilgamesh in one version MAY have a reference to lilitu, which you are not saying is actually a class of spirits in Mesopotamia. Not just ONE figure as you keep asserting. Early Hebrew myth also makes this clear. In other versions, lilitu does not exist.

It is called incubus because it incubus because it incubated inside of Alessa. If anything it's closer to the masculine Lilu and not Lilitu.

Xuchil is Nahuatl. It is confirmed the gods have Aztec and Mayan names.

You need to do more research and play the game over again. No where does it say Samael is god and Samael is not an incubus or a fallen angel either. He simply works for God like other angels. The game only mentions Sam in conjunction with the seal of Metatron, which as I said debunked your assertions because it was specifically said to be a red herring in the guide book which is canon. If Samael was intended to be God, that would have been mentioned because they covered a lot of information on God.
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Post by MisterY on Fri Jul 15, 2016 2:29 am

This is a good read, nice one, respect
Much Love MisterY
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Post by Onantschenko on Fri Jul 15, 2016 1:30 pm

In no time I referred to the name "Lilith" who was worshipped as a goddess, but subjugated by some Hebrew tribes as an evil figure or an evil goddess in order to divert the Hebrew people of his God father. The epic of Gilgamesh is also very influential on other cultures beyond Mesopotamia and Canaan to the Hellenic culture.

in fact, the name Metatron is also mentioned in Jewish tradition (Talmud) and a few Christians.
Participation in history:
An angel who would have guided the Hebrew people in the crossing of the Red Sea.
The angel who prevented the sacrifice of Isaac by Abraham.
The Angel of death, the last plague Moses released about Egypt, which would have killed the first-born of every family, whose front door was not marked with the blood of a lamb.

About Xuchilbara, I don't have an opinion about the origin of her and not about the Aztecs, despite the SH2 has some references in Toluca prison. There are also of Xuchilbara be just a manifestation created by the mind of Alessa.

On the object of debate "Silent Hill 2", the story of the Hebrew people transition to the Jews is irrelevant. Doesn't make sense to developers do a long historical research. So it makes sense that they have been based in the medieval kabalah and the Catholic interpretations about Samael (Lucifer). Konami is a company that does not have the profile of doing this ancient myths full of traps and distortions.

If the God of order is not the Samael, who is the God of the order? Lucifer? It makes no sense, because developers could put more about the religious folklore Japanese in the game.
 
 
 
 
 
 

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Post by MisterY on Fri Jul 15, 2016 2:54 pm

As good as it is. (Quote to the post above^*^)
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Post by Lilith on Fri Jul 15, 2016 6:45 pm

Onantschenko wrote:In no time I referred to the name "Lilith" who was worshipped as a goddess, but subjugated by some Hebrew tribes as an evil figure or an evil goddess in order to divert the Hebrew people of his God father. The epic of Gilgamesh is also very influential on other cultures beyond Mesopotamia and Canaan to the Hellenic culture.


She is a minor spirit so this assertion is not an assertion of academics, but of your opinion. The Hebrews never had Lilith until Babylonian captivity. Gilgamesh has several versions and I am not sure the ki-skil-lillake version was the most popular, so this would also be incorrect. Gilgamesh certainly influenced them and especially the bible, but it is not exactly where they derived Lilith from.

Ki-skil-lillake is the Sumerian version not Babylonian, and most versions say a "ghost" not a Lilitu demon.

in fact, the name Metatron is also mentioned in Jewish tradition (Talmud) and a few Christians.
Participation in history:
An angel who would have guided the Hebrew people in the crossing of the Red Sea.
The angel who prevented the sacrifice of Isaac by Abraham.
The Angel of death, the last plague Moses released about Egypt, which would have killed the first-born of every family, whose front door was not marked with the blood of a lamb.


Like Samael, Metatron is a figure of later lore and not in the bible or most ancient texts. You seem to be mixing up Kabbalah with ancient texts. We must remember the huge gap between them and earlier texts, both in time, and culture.

About Xuchilbara, I don't have an opinion about the origin of her and not about the Aztecs, despite the SH2 has some references in Toluca prison. There are also of Xuchilbara be just a manifestation created by the mind of Alessa.


The gods are older than Alessa.

On the object of debate "Silent Hill 2", the story of the Hebrew people transition to the Jews is irrelevant. Doesn't make sense to developers do a long historical research. So it makes sense that they have been based in the medieval kabalah and the Catholic interpretations about Samael (Lucifer). Konami is a company that does not have the profile of doing this ancient myths full of traps and distortions.


Samael is not Lucifer and Lucifer is not a Jewish figure nor is Lucifer Satan. The Jewish Encyclopedia can clear this up for you as it is free online.

God of the Order cannot be Satan or Samael because the Order is native American and not Judeo-Christian based. God is not Abrahamic, therefore asserting that it is Samael cannot be correct.

If the God of order is not the Samael, who is the God of the order? Lucifer? It makes no sense, because developers could put more about the religious folklore Japanese in the game.


Why not? Lucifer is the god of witches in Aradia and some Wiccan covens. Lucifer never had a connection with Satan until the church got pissy and used it as propaganda against their enemies. Lucifer and it's connection to the occult have over 100 year history and his name is included in the Halo of the Sun. But the God of the Order is female and not Lucifer, the morning star. (Lucifer is not Satan even in the bible. The whole Lucifer ordeal is NOT canonical.)

You seem to forget that the cult is fictional and while it has real life influences, these influences do not =God.

First and foremost, the gods and God of the Order are from a Native American religion that does not exist in rl. The main god being solar is from a plethora of religions including Aztec, Egyptian, Japanese, and so forth. This does not mean God is the same as Amaterasu. The mythology follows the pattern of the sun's descent into the underworld that is found in those religions and Mesopotamian lore.

Secondly, only unbelievers gave God names of the devil while believers gave God angelic names. Either way, God is not the Abrahamic God. But a Native one who was given the title of God by Catholics who adapted the religion. (Not really an uncommon phenomena irl, the Aztec religion continues this way in Mexico. The gods became saints.)

Third, there is no proof that angels and demons of Judeo-Christian lore exist within the realm of Silent Hill. Baphomet, God's image in SH1, was "mistaken" as an image of God irl and in the game. There are reasons for this, because it is clear that the "God" in 1 and 3 is not the God of the Order nor a god at all. Valtiel is considered an "angel" of that religion, but this is to make it easier to understand his position by giving him appropriate cultural equivalents.

Fourth, the reality is that Samael and Metatron are nothing more than name drops. This was explained in SH1's guidebook as soon as the game came out. The Mark of Samael, AKA the Seal of Metatron, is nothing more than a magical sigil that is a spell of annihilation. It does not "summon" them or anything. (If you don't understand sigil magic, I would suggest googling it.) Along time ago, maybe over a decade ago, because Alessa was spreading the seal everywhere to kill God and herself, people assumed, for some reason, that Samael was God and this stupid unsupported theory has stayed within the community for a decade. I don't even know who started it, but it's annoying that even when we had 4 main games make it clear that it was not Samael, that this idea still sticks in the minds of fans.

Fifthly, the Order is made up of layers of influence that make up their religion. It's not different than some rl newer religions. But I will start with the first layer.

1. Native American religion; the gods, angels, spirits, location, animistic beliefs, and so forth. The original religion is very different from the Order's version. (The tribe is never named, so I assume it's a fictional tribe.)

2. Aztec and Mayan, the reason this was used was to make it more "authentically" native. (For some reason, they did not want to use rl American tribes. Rather the civilized Aztecs and Mayans were used.) A lot of the Order's and the native peoples' religions were based in practices done by the Aztecs and Mayans. Including sacrificing to the sun, this is clear in SH3's memos. The concept of sin may have also been taken from the Aztec religion, as it seems to be a pre-Abrahamic belief by the natives. In any case, the names of the gods were derived from classical Nahuatl (Aztec) and Mayan. We do not know the gender of these gods. They were created to lead people to obey God.

3.Catholicism, for some reason, the original settlements and subsequent ones, (because SH got settled more than once.) is Catholic and not Protestant. Given American and Maine's history they should be Protestant irl, but for the game they never seemed to be. A bit of an odd thing, really. But it is why at least, aesthetically, the Order seems Catholic.

4. Jewish/Christian mysticism and Western Occult themes. (Hermeticism, Aradia, Baphomet, Goetia, and so forth.) This is where it gets a bit fuzzy because it is not explicit to where this exactly came from. We know it came from the settlers, but the occult is not common among Christians and most who practiced it were labeled heretics. In any case, the Order practiced black magic on their enemies and the like, this is where it came from.

5. Babylonia and Egypt. I put these two together because they're related and they are Ancient Near Eastern. Most of the magical practices of the Greco-Roman world that makes up the Western occult is from these places. (The zodiac for example, is Sumer-Babylonian in origin and was used by the Greeks and Egyptians.) Given the history, especially of Greece and Rome on Egypt, it is not a wonder that they would be intertwined. Likewise, the Hebrews/Jews have influences from every one of these places. The Zohar for example, takes much from Greek mysticism. A big reason why they're tagged is because they both had prominent sun cults and myths where the sun "died" and descended into the otherworld. (Ra, Utu/Shamash/Nergal) The thing that does not make sense about this influence is that Babylonian archaeology is comparatively new compared to Egyptian, so it is unclear how they supposedly got this influence before the archaeology which the memos seem to indicate.

6.Celtic and Nordic, these are interrelated and can refer to things that are mixed of a plethora beliefs. Neither were unified peoples and there are 300 Celtic tribes alone. SH uses the Irish Celtic stuff, maybe because they got Christianity later than many other places, this is mostly for the concepts of the otherworld which conversely also tie into the Mayans and Aztecs who had similar beliefs. With the Aztecs and Mayans this is mostly in terms of rituals to open gates to the otherworld, such as the blood sacrifice ritual in SH3. But for the Nordics and Celts, the otherworld was very influential on their own. The natives of SH, the Aztecs/Mayans, and the Nordics, to some degree the Celts also, all have stories of people having fetch's that share their soul with them that they can transform into. There is a lot of stories of people and gods shapeshifting into animals. (For the Aztecs this is called nahualli.) It is mentioned in Lost Memories that another term for the otherworld is "the fairy world". Now, just because there is a reference to the fairies in SH does not mean that there are actual fairies in SH, just like the Samael thing.

7. Japanese. This is not very influential but a tad. God of the Order fits in as a head or "national" god in the same way Amaterasu does, and they're both solar goddesses. The original native beliefs were closer to Shintoism, according to Owaku, than they are to the Order.

These are the main influences that form the Order. However, I may have forgot on or two, these are the main ones.
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Post by Otherworld on Fri Jul 15, 2016 10:22 pm

I am always happy to be taken to school by you Xuchilbara. ^ Great post.
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Post by Lilith on Sat Jul 16, 2016 12:10 am

The post is so great I saved it on Facebook. This is a real good discussion.

I forgot to mention Buddhism, but it's a more obvious trait. <reincarnation > Most of Japan mixes Buddhism and Shintoism. Reincarnation appears in a lot of myths including, oddly, Aztec.
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Post by Onantschenko on Mon Jul 18, 2016 12:27 pm

Samael is not Lucifer and Lucifer is not a Jewish figure nor is Lucifer Satan. The Jewish Encyclopedia can clear this up for you as it is free online.

I didn't say that "I" think that Samael is Lucifer, but the Canonical Christian traditions affirm this.

Like Samael, Metatron is a figure of later lore and not in the bible or most ancient texts. You seem to be mixing up Kabbalah with ancient texts. We must remember the huge gap between them and earlier texts, both in time, and culture.

I agree with this, but there is a lot of controversy about these historical characters. Some say that Metatron is the angel who killed the firstborn of the Pharaoh, but others say it was Samael who killed.

I rely on Kabbalah, where Samael is one of seven angels who was close to the throne of God (Revelation 8:2). Samael is described as the "wrath of God", and is listed as fifth of the archangels of the world of Briah. Also in the Kabbalah, Samael was said to be the Serpent who tempted Eve into sin. He even seduced and impregnated her with Cain. Samael then became the consort of Adam's first wife, Lilith. He created with her a host of demon children, including a son, Sariel, the "Sword of Samael" or Asmodai.

You seem to forget that the cult is fictional and while it has real life influences, these influences do not =God.

I know it's fictional, the team of developers based on real religions, using Western religions. And obviously some aspects of Japanese folklore spoken by Masahiro Ito.

Secondly, only unbelievers gave God names of the devil while believers gave God angelic names. Either way, God is not the Abrahamic God. But a Native one who was given the title of God by Catholics who adapted the religion. (Not really an uncommon phenomena irl, the Aztec religion continues this way in Mexico. The gods became saints.)

According to the link the user Otherworld on the book of lost memories, there is any indication that the God of order is any native god. What I do know is that there's been a distortion of the cult in the land of silent spirits (where the native Americans practiced the cult and violated by the settlers), there's no assertions that where land called "The Place of the Silent Spirits." is inhabited by natives, I believe they only practiced the cult in this sacred land.

Link by Otherworld: http://www.silenthillmemories.net/lost_ ... tro_en.htm

Returning to the link, there is a trail of time, on the East coast of the United States was settled by England and the geographical position of the Aztec and Mayan civilizations. Look where the cultural centers are concentrated. I think it's a little improbable that the East Coast has Mayan Aztec influence,exists several native groups in North American territory that hinder the cultural expansion of the Aztecs and Mayans.

Some images about the geography of Aztec and Mayan people at its greatest expansion.
REVEAL SPOILER
Aztecs
Image
Mayan
Image


All that SH2 indicates on this theory are the name of the "red god" and some people say they have inscriptions in "Obsidian Goblet" with Mayan/Aztec aspects, references in SH2 are blurred too much. If you put some link that indicate, I'd be happy.

I don't disagree with your argument about the Mayan/Aztec names of gods, but the link from the "book of lost memories" that the user "Otherwold" does not indicate anything about this theory, which to me has no basis to assert itself in SH2. Please put references of SH1, SH2 and SH3, if not, I'm not going to find anything game related content with the Mayan/Aztec folklore, in addition to the name of the "red god" and the "Obsidian Goblet", from a weak basis for this theory.

You said that the names of Samael and Metatron were placed without any meaning. I do not agree with this argument, here a picture of the "book of lost memories", with more aspects of Kabbalah.

Image

The Seal of Metatron, Aglaophotis and the Flauros is mere coincidence, sorry but I don't think it is coincidence. In fact if the developers of SH would do that would be some irrational, stupid and futile.
I'm sure that SH has more references with the ancient Western cultures than Mexico.

Returning to the Observation Deck, where James is a drawing.
Graffiti in the toilet.
REVEAL SPOILER
Image


A person who lives in Israel pasted an argument like that "(he) will be loved by the name of god" (it coud be "Be'el Shaday" in the name of god) ", other call that figure as Yohan (God is merciful, Yahweh is gracious), Ba'al, El Shaddai (God Almighty) and yakedonki. However, the Then Ya'akronki, which doesn't sound like Hebrew. Might be Talmudic Aramaic. All are linked with aspects of Hebrew/Jewish religion.
 
 
 
 
 
 

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Post by Lilith on Mon Jul 18, 2016 2:04 pm

Onantschenko wrote:
Samael is not Lucifer and Lucifer is not a Jewish figure nor is Lucifer Satan. The Jewish Encyclopedia can clear this up for you as it is free online.

I didn't say that "I" think that Samael is Lucifer, but the Canonical Christian traditions affirm this.


Lucifer is not in the bible and thus is not canon. Neither is Samael, who remains, to this day, a largely Jewish figure.

I agree with this, but there is a lot of controversy about these historical characters. Some say that Metatron is the angel who killed the firstborn of the Pharaoh, but others say it was Samael who killed.

I rely on Kabbalah, where Samael is one of seven angels who was close to the throne of God (Revelation 8:2). Samael is described as the "wrath of God", and is listed as fifth of the archangels of the world of Briah. Also in the Kabbalah, Samael was said to be the Serpent who tempted Eve into sin. He even seduced and impregnated her with Cain. Samael then became the consort of Adam's first wife, Lilith. He created with her a host of demon children, including a son, Sariel, the "Sword of Samael" or Asmodai.


Revelations is a Christian text not Jewish, and thus is not part of the Kabbalah. Judaism rejects the books and teachings of Jesus Christ.

There are different versions of the story that even the Zohar gives. In one version, Lilith, not Samael, is the snake in Eden who tempts Eve.


According to the link the user Otherworld on the book of lost memories, there is any indication that the God of order is any native god. What I do know is that there's been a distortion of the cult in the land of silent spirits (where the native Americans practiced the cult and violated by the settlers), there's no assertions that where land called "The Place of the Silent Spirits." is inhabited by natives, I believe they only practiced the cult in this sacred land.

Link by Otherworld: http://www.silenthillmemories.net/lost_ ... tro_en.htm


In order to faiclitate this discussion further, you should probably read the whole thing.

Returning to the link, there is a trail of time, on the East coast of the United States was settled by England and the geographical position of the Aztec and Mayan civilizations. Look where the cultural centers are concentrated. I think it's a little improbable that the East Coast has Mayan Aztec influence,exists several native groups in North American territory that hinder the cultural expansion of the Aztecs and Mayans.

Some images about the geography of Aztec and Mayan people at its greatest expansion.


You don't need to educate me on Mesoamerica, I know far much about it expanding beyond Silent Hill. I even know some Nahuatl. You could have just asked for a citation instead of assuming I am ignorant. The rl region does not matter within the structure of the game, so your entire point is moot anyway.

The ideal of the Mesoamerican influence is a bit similar to how a bunch of Catholics who were the majority ended up in New England instead of Protestants.

All that SH2 indicates on this theory are the name of the "red god" and some people say they have inscriptions in "Obsidian Goblet" with Mayan/Aztec aspects, references in SH2 are blurred too much. If you put some link that indicate, I'd be happy.

I don't disagree with your argument about the Mayan/Aztec names of gods, but the link from the "book of lost memories" that the user "Otherwold" does not indicate anything about this theory, which to me has no basis to assert itself in SH2. Please put references of SH1, SH2 and SH3, if not, I'm not going to find anything game related content with the Mayan/Aztec folklore, in addition to the name of the "red god" and the "Obsidian Goblet", from a weak basis for this theory.


It's not a theory. You apparently either did not read BOLM or you missed this part several times over.

The Book of Lost Memories wrote:The Book of Crimson Ceremony

The roots of the Crimson Ceremony lie in Mayan and Aztec rituals. At one time,
the ritual of human sacrifice was quite prevalent.


^Under "Heirophant". Compare to the note found in SH3 about sacrifices to the sun and the myth of Tonatiuh and the sun's movement.


Hiroyuki Owaku wrote:Creator's Commentary: The religion of Silent Hill references various elements
of different religions such as the origins of Christianity, Japanese folklore,
and Aztec rituals. Original Native American beliefs have to do with animals
and spirits that dwell in places, and borrowing their power to make oneself
stronger. The names of the gods have Mayan and Aztec motifs. Using the strange
pronunciations as a reference, I thought up original ones.


^under "Tower".

You can also prove that "Xuchil" is etymologically related to the word "Xochitl" without this commentary.

Lastly, all the tablets in SH2 are Aztec and reference the characters using Aztec pictures.

http://silenthill.wikia.com/wiki/Tablet ... pressor%22


You said that the names of Samael and Metatron were placed without any meaning. I do not agree with this argument, here a picture of the "book of lost memories", with more aspects of Kabbalah.


Koshiki Guide Book wrote:Q: What is the Mark of Samael?

A: The truth is that there is no profound significance.

Dahlia uses the phrase "the Mark of Samael" while speaking to Harry. This is a sophism to make
Harry worry that terrible things are happening that must be stopped at any cost; it's nonsense that
falls under the category of wordplay.
Dahlia thought she could use Harry to catch Alessa, so she
used incomprehensible terms with feigned sincerity.

Q: What is the Seal of Metatron?

A: It's like a spell of annihilation.

What Alessa was actually creating was the Seal of Metatron. Its name is derived from the name
of an angel of release in the Kabbalistic system. Bound by the cult's spell and living in an endless
nightmare in agony, Alessa's wish was for a complete death. Since she was unable to die in a
normal fashion while under the influence of the power of the malevolent deity, Alessa intended
to "annihilate" herself by the power of the Seal of Metatron with the nightmare world at hand.
At the moment Cheryl and Alessa united, she gained the power to escape from the cult's spell; at
the same time, the technique that brought about the descent of the cult's god succeeded and the
malevolent deity resumed its maturation process. This time, Alessa was engaged in a struggle,
a race between the malevolent god's maturation and the seal's completion. If the seal were to be
completed, Harry, Cybil, Dahlia and the others would all be annihilated along with Alessa. However,
as it is questionable whether the Seal of Metatron actually has this sort of power, there is also the
possibility that Alessa, using knowledge she acquired when she was very young, freed herself from
the effects of the malevolent god's power through autosuggestion and was attempting to realize her
own death. Because Dahlia was at least aware of the fact that Alessa had the will to end her own life,
she prepared for the worst-case scenario and took steps to prevent this from happening. She used
Harry for that very purpose.

Alessa was creating the Seal of Metatron at the school, hospital, antique shop, lighthouse, and
amusement park. Draw lines connecting these seals and their placement creates an enormous
Mark of Samael throughout the town. The seal may also have been created in other places as well.


Well, then, according to you the creators are stupid for this.



The Seal of Metatron, Aglaophotis and the Flauros is mere coincidence, sorry but I don't think it is coincidence. In fact if the developers of SH would do that would be some irrational, stupid and futile.
I'm sure that SH has more references with the ancient Western cultures than Mexico.


You assume, once again, because Silent Hill name drops things from the occult that these beings within the context of Silent Hill universe exist, which is not correct.
 
 
 
 
 
 

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Born from a Wish. (Spoilers.)

Post by Onantschenko on Tue Jul 19, 2016 4:00 pm

Xuchilbara wrote:You don't need to educate me on Mesoamerica, I know far much about it expanding beyond Silent Hill. I even know some Nahuatl. You could have just asked for a citation instead of assuming I am ignorant. The rl region does not matter within the structure of the game, so your entire point is moot anyway.

I do not know how to interpret what I said, my intention is not to offend you or trying to educate you (I wouldn't do that).
I put like this so that other people understand what I'm talking about. I'm sure there are people who don't have knowledge equal to yours, Xuchilbara.

I'm a really busy person, I don't have much time to be doing research. I use the free time in the day or night.

On this book's Koshiki Guide "who is the person who answers questions?
Because the response from Hiroyuki Owaku contradicts's Koshiki Guide Book.

Koshiki Guide Book: A: The truth is that there is no profound significance.

Hiroyuki Owaku: The religion of Silent Hill references various elements of different religions such as the origins of Christianity, Japanese folklore, and Aztec rituals.

The answers from Hiroyuki Owaku does not deny that the elements of Kabbalah is just names placed randomly with goals to be nothing.

Because the team would draw up the mystery of SH2 Observation Deck with entries in Hebrew/Jewish language, making reference to the Hebrew/Jewish god? Not to have any sense in the plot of the game? Because the Hebrew/Jewish god?
It's very strange, this being something placed randomly on the game.

Analyzing calmly answers you posted. I came to a point.
In the sacred territory of the silent spirits was violated by settlers from Christian aspects, probably tried to do a mission to convert the natives to the Christian faith (the Portuguese did this in Brazil), which sparked a clash of religious culture distorting it.

Then generating a great mix of religious rituals, which consequently lost knowledge which limited this religious mix.
Where theoretically the God has been distorted over time, it would be impossible for God were distorted exactly at the beginning of the colonization of the Holy lands of silent spirits.

The Book of Lost Memories, events:
Native Americans conduct rituals here. This land is valued as a sacred place in Native American religion.
-Settlers begin to come to Silent Hill
A mysterious epidemic breaks out, and the town is abandoned.
- The town is resettled as a penal colony.
Silent Hill Prison is constructed.
Brookhaven Hospital is constructed in response to the outbreak of an epidemic.
Allen Smith paints "waterfront landscape"
- Silent Hill Prison closes
A coal field is discovered and Wiltse coal mine opens, which leads to the revitalization of the town
The prison camp is converted into Toluca Prison.
- Strange events take place at Toluca Lake.

I'm sure the Dahlia when child has been taught in Christian molds, even justifying what she said to Harry
about "the Mark of Samael", by fanaticism of religion distorted in the past of Silent Hill.

Probably the developers put a lot of information about the Jewish religion as Aglaophotis, The Seal of Metatron and the Flauros (Lesser Key of Solomon) that has meaning in Jewish culture. In the commentary by Hiroyuki Owaku says: "such as the origins of Christianity", where Jewish culture was heavily present at the origin of Christianity. Justifying these items above.

Soon the God of order would be some kind of god of Sun. May have several generic names. I stopped to analyze all aspects of it, and I hadn't been paying attention that he is only called "God", I believe that the name Samael is a generic name.

What do you think Xuchilbara? This is what you want to tell me?

Xuchilbara wrote:You can also prove that "Xuchil" is etymologically related to the word "Xochitl" without this commentary.

Xuchilbara wrote:The roots of the Crimson Ceremony lie in Mayan and Aztec rituals. At one time,
the ritual of human sacrifice was quite prevalent.

In no time I disagreed with you about the presence of the Aztec/Mayan rituals.
Will the "red god" on was distorted over the years? I think Yes, what do you think?

Xuchilbara wrote:In order to faiclitate this discussion further, you should probably read the whole thing.

About the link you sent. Is exactly the same content than the Forum user "Otherworld" sent me.

Xuchilbara wrote:Lastly, all the tablets in SH2 are Aztec and reference the characters using Aztec pictures.
http://silenthill.wikia.com/wiki/Tablet ... pressor%22

Yes, this is what I said when I mentioned that there were things related to the Aztecs in Toluca prison.
The relationship of some Aztec gods with the characters is quite clear, there's no question about it.

Xuchilbara wrote:^Under "Heirophant". Compare to the note found in SH3 about sacrifices to the sun and the myth of Tonatiuh and the sun's movement.

You could put the name of the document, would facilitate the search. Could be "Book: Lost Memories"?

Book: Lost Memories found in SH3:
REVEAL SPOILER
One characteristic, mentioned only
in rare documents and dying out in
the modern age, is that of the ritual
sacrifice.

"Offering prayers, pierce a man's
chest with a copper stake. Drench
the altar in the blood which spouts
red from the heart, to praise and to
show loyalty unto God."

In another sacrificial rite mentioned
in the same book, the victim is
burned alive.

This was a more dignified ceremony
in which prisoners and sinners were
not allowed to participate. Only the
clergy could be sacrificed.

Similar to burning at the stake, no
comparable rite can be found in
religions practiced nearby. It may
have some connection with the
main deity being a sun god.

Even though this religion extols
redemption, it brings to mind a
dark and cultish history.
 
 
 
 
 
 

Lilith

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Born from a Wish. (Spoilers.)

Post by Lilith on Wed Jul 20, 2016 12:36 am

Onantschenko wrote:
I'm a really busy person, I don't have much time to be doing research. I use the free time in the day or night.

On this book's Koshiki Guide "who is the person who answers questions?
Because the response from Hiroyuki Owaku contradicts's Koshiki Guide Book.

Koshiki Guide Book: A: The truth is that there is no profound significance.

Hiroyuki Owaku: The religion of Silent Hill references various elements of different religions such as the origins of Christianity, Japanese folklore, and Aztec rituals.


References =/= proof of existence. After all Flauros appears in Origins, but Tomm Huelett pretty much confirmed it's not the actual demon per se.

The answers from Hiroyuki Owaku does not deny that the elements of Kabbalah is just names placed randomly with goals to be nothing.


I am not saying they are 'random'. On the contrary, I am saying they are placed to purposefully confound and confuse.

Because the team would draw up the mystery of SH2 Observation Deck with entries in Hebrew/Jewish language, making reference to the Hebrew/Jewish god? Not to have any sense in the plot of the game? Because the Hebrew/Jewish god?
It's very strange, this being something placed randomly on the game.


This instance may be nothing more than an Easter Egg. I don't think it has much significance.

Analyzing calmly answers you posted. I came to a point.
In the sacred territory of the silent spirits was violated by settlers from Christian aspects, probably tried to do a mission to convert the natives to the Christian faith (the Portuguese did this in Brazil), which sparked a clash of religious culture distorting it.

Then generating a great mix of religious rituals, which consequently lost knowledge which limited this religious mix.
Where theoretically the God has been distorted over time, it would be impossible for God were distorted exactly at the beginning of the colonization of the Holy lands of silent spirits.


Pretty much. Sometimes Native cultures tend to see similarities between Christianity and their own religions. Like the Aztecs were more willing to accept certain aspects of Christianity, such as sacrifice. In this case, the reverse is true. It's real strange.

The Book of Lost Memories, events:
Native Americans conduct rituals here. This land is valued as a sacred place in Native American religion.
-Settlers begin to come to Silent Hill
A mysterious epidemic breaks out, and the town is abandoned.
- The town is resettled as a penal colony.
Silent Hill Prison is constructed.
Brookhaven Hospital is constructed in response to the outbreak of an epidemic.
Allen Smith paints "waterfront landscape"
- Silent Hill Prison closes
A coal field is discovered and Wiltse coal mine opens, which leads to the revitalization of the town
The prison camp is converted into Toluca Prison.
- Strange events take place at Toluca Lake.


Yeah, this is right. There were two waves of settlers. I think the Order is from the 2nd wave. But I am unclear on it since there is not many details.

I'm sure the Dahlia when child has been taught in Christian molds, even justifying what she said to Harry
about "the Mark of Samael", by fanaticism of religion distorted in the past of Silent Hill.


We really don't know Dahlia's history other than being a high priestess. Hell, we don't even know who Alessa's father is or why he is missing.

Probably the developers put a lot of information about the Jewish religion as Aglaophotis, The Seal of Metatron and the Flauros (Lesser Key of Solomon) that has meaning in Jewish culture. In the commentary by Hiroyuki Owaku says: "such as the origins of Christianity", where Jewish culture was heavily present at the origin of Christianity. Justifying these items above.


Actually, the origins of Christianity are far more complex than Judaism and Judaism is from the pagan Hebrews who branched off the Canaanites but also Egyptian, and Mesopotamian religion in the mix. IMo, you are placing too much emphasis on Christianity and Judaism. Many newer traditions and occult traditions of the West use Judeo-Christian stuff, even if they're pagan. Heck, even Wicca has that sort of influence. The reason for this is ceremonial magic systems in the Western occult, but they all trace back to Hermeticism which is a mix of pagan and Abrahamic stuff. (It tried to create harmony between the religions.) So, one can certainly use Abrahamic symbolism and even believe in God and/or angels, yet not be part of the Abrahamic religions and worship pagan gods. Angels are pretty big things in certain sects of Wicca and Neopaganism, that it's not all that unusual.

Soon the God of order would be some kind of god of Sun. May have several generic names. I stopped to analyze all aspects of it, and I hadn't been paying attention that he is only called "God", I believe that the name Samael is a generic name.


God was a solar deity prior to the settlers.

What do you think Xuchilbara? This is what you want to tell me?


I think you're on the right track.

Xuchilbara wrote:You can also prove that "Xuchil" is etymologically related to the word "Xochitl" without this commentary.

Xuchilbara wrote:The roots of the Crimson Ceremony lie in Mayan and Aztec rituals. At one time,
the ritual of human sacrifice was quite prevalent.

In no time I disagreed with you about the presence of the Aztec/Mayan rituals.
Will the "red god" on was distorted over the years? I think Yes, what do you think?


For my own personal opinions of the going ons with the gods in Silent Hill see my threadhere. I got some others about the nature of God and the God in the games we saw, as well.
Xuchilbara wrote:In order to faiclitate this discussion further, you should probably read the whole thing.

About the link you sent. Is exactly the same content than the Forum user "Otherworld" sent me.


Did you read the text translation of all the documents?

Xuchilbara wrote:Lastly, all the tablets in SH2 are Aztec and reference the characters using Aztec pictures.
http://silenthill.wikia.com/wiki/Tablet ... pressor%22

Yes, this is what I said when I mentioned that there were things related to the Aztecs in Toluca prison.
The relationship of some Aztec gods with the characters is quite clear, there's no question about it.


You gotta be careful here. The gods in the Order are not Aztec gods. I just think Aztec/Mayan stuffs were used to supplement native american tribal religion for an unknown reason by Owaku. I will admit though, the Aztec influence was definitely all the way up to the American Southwest at least because Quetzalcoatl became a Hopi god.

Xuchilbara wrote:^Under "Heirophant". Compare to the note found in SH3 about sacrifices to the sun and the myth of Tonatiuh and the sun's movement.

You could put the name of the document, would facilitate the search. Could be "Book: Lost Memories"?

Book: Lost Memories found in SH3:
REVEAL SPOILER
One characteristic, mentioned only
in rare documents and dying out in
the modern age, is that of the ritual
sacrifice.

"Offering prayers, pierce a man's
chest with a copper stake. Drench
the altar in the blood which spouts
red from the heart, to praise and to
show loyalty unto God."

In another sacrificial rite mentioned
in the same book, the victim is
burned alive.

This was a more dignified ceremony
in which prisoners and sinners were
not allowed to participate. Only the
clergy could be sacrificed.

Similar to burning at the stake, no
comparable rite can be found in
religions practiced nearby. It may
have some connection with the
main deity being a sun god.

Even though this religion extols
redemption, it brings to mind a
dark and cultish history.
[/quote]

You found the right document.

I do not know how to interpret what I said, my intention is not to offend you or trying to educate you (I wouldn't do that).
I put like this so that other people understand what I'm talking about. I'm sure there are people who don't have knowledge equal to yours, Xuchilbara.

I'm a really busy person, I don't have much time to be doing research. I use the free time in the day or night.


You didn't offend me. I actually studied this stuff awhile ago back when I had more free time in my younger years. I wish I could sit around all day studying various things, religions and cultures, but alas life does not permit this.

There's people with more knowledge than me! I met them! :lol:
I cease to exist on the Christmas list
 
 
 
 
 

Onantschenko

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Posts: 20

Joined: Jun 08, 2016

Born from a Wish. (Spoilers.)

Post by Onantschenko on Tue Jul 26, 2016 4:04 pm

Xuchilpaba wrote:
Onantschenko wrote:Because the team would draw up the mystery of SH2 Observation Deck with entries in Hebrew/Jewish language, making reference to the Hebrew/Jewish god? Not to have any sense in the plot of the game? Because the Hebrew/Jewish god?
It's very strange, this being something placed randomly on the game.

This instance may be nothing more than an Easter Egg. I don't think it has much significance.

I don't think so. All the "Easter Egg" SH series has a purpose, because so far it proved to have links with the history of mysticism of the cult. :ninja:

Xuchilbara wrote:Actually, the origins of Christianity are far more complex than Judaism and Judaism is from the pagan Hebrews who branched off the Canaanites but also Egyptian, and Mesopotamian religion in the mix. IMo, you are placing too much emphasis on Christianity and Judaism. Many newer traditions and occult traditions of the West use Judeo-Christian stuff, even if they're pagan. Heck, even Wicca has that sort of influence. The reason for this is ceremonial magic systems in the Western occult, but they all trace back to Hermeticism which is a mix of pagan and Abrahamic stuff. (It tried to create harmony between the religions.) So, one can certainly use Abrahamic symbolism and even believe in God and/or angels, yet not be part of the Abrahamic religions and worship pagan gods. Angels are pretty big things in certain sects of Wicca and Neopaganism, that it's not all that unusual.

Can we get Christianity and split into two his rise. The first with the coming of Christ and the other of rise throughout the Roman Empire by the Emperor Constantine I.
The Emperor Elagabalus created a cult of the god of Christmas city of origin of the emperor. The title "Sol Invictus", based on the entity of a god worshipped in Syria (Emesa/Homs) Sol Indiges (Sun on Earth). After the death of Elagabalus in 222 a.C., the cult of the Sol Invictus was linked with Mitra and Mars. And was reinstated as an officer by the Emperor Aurelian in 270 a.C.

As in the story of god in the order of Silent hill, has the same confusion that the solar god of the Roman Empire. The Emperor Constantine after having converted to Christianity not abdicated the solar god Sol Invictus, causing great confusion about who is the official god of the Christian Church. A lot of speculation points to Mitra as distorted by the term Christian divinity Sol Invictus.
But there is speculation that points to several other solar gods as Helios (Greek mythology), but Christ is referred to as a solar Messiah with the cross of the zodiac.
I mentioned this because it's an solar entity type that is linked with the story of the rise of Christianity and the Roman paganism, it's like the beginning of colonization Silent Hill.

Xuchilbara wrote:God was a solar deity prior to the settlers.

I don't doubt your answer. It is normal that ancient peoples praise him the Sun as god.

Xuchilbara wrote:You gotta be careful here. The gods in the Order are not Aztec gods. I just think Aztec/Mayan stuffs were used to supplement native american tribal religion for an unknown reason by Owaku. I will admit though, the Aztec influence was definitely all the way up to the American Southwest at least because Quetzalcoatl became a Hopi god.

I didn't say that the god of the order is some entity Aztec, but the bloody rituals that people are used in the order.

Xuchilbara wrote:For my own personal opinions of the going ons with the gods in Silent Hill see my threadhere. I got some others about the nature of God and the God in the games we saw, as well.

I don't know much about the religious myths of Japan and neighbouring countries.
They have some story about some divine paradise like the Abrahamic religions?
To make sense, there has to be allegories of the type that are mentioned in the game.

About the translated version of the book "lost memories", the links have the same content, but your is organized.
 
 
 
 
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