Another reason why I think In Water isn't canon

[Devoured]

Well for those feeling sad about astro now being In Water, you can always theorize on if he decided to be banned before registering, while registering or at the end of his run, and just what kind of deeper implications his decision held...was it love? Guilt? Eros / Thanatos?

[Q. Valintyne]

Well for those feeling sad about astro now being In Water, you can always theorize on if he decided to be banned before registering, while registering or at the end of his run, and just what kind of deeper implications his decision held...was it love? Guilt? Eros / Thanatos?

You have no idea how much I just lol'd.

How on earth will he be able to attain the Rebirth ending? I mean, we could also assume that his rage resulted in a Leave ending. He just disappeared, I guess.

And "disappeared" does not imply that he "died."

[NarooN]

That's the second ragequit I've ever seen here. What an attention whore. He could've just left the site without coming back, no one ever forces you to login. But oh well, back to the topic at hand...

...on which I have nothing to contribute, actually .

[Devoured]

Yeah well leaving a room quietly doesn't garner much attention...

[Waverer]

Fun angry argument time is over, but I just want to ask one question:

James says in the In Water ending that he is taking his life so that he and Mary can finally be together. This is in part what makes the ending seem romantic and beautiful. I have to ask, though, does James's statement really mean anything at all considering the context? This is a man who was selfish enough to not only abandon his wife in her greatest time of need, but to go so far as to actually kill her to escape his own guilt and suffering. That action alone shows us what James is willing to do to avoid emotional pain. Of course he would convince himself that the only reason he wants to die is to be with Mary, he doesn't want to face the truth: that he's a coward. I don't buy it. I think he just cared about sparing himself the pain of his own guilt. It's almost like he's disregarding the fact that the whole reason she's dead in the first place is because he brutally murdered her.

"We really knew he was suicidal though" is a desperately cheap justification and "James might think he's going to hell because he saw something that said he will on a wall inside Silent Hill" isn't any better. None of your arguments are valid for asserting that we're just 'looking at it wrong'.

The message in Neely's Bar could mean something, or it's just randomly there - I tend to think it wouldn't be there unless it had a purpose of foreshadowing, but it doesn't even matter. If James really thinks he's going to the same place that Mary did when he dies, he's just as delusional as before. He murdered his wife, he's probably going to hell - or maybe some sort of purgatory.

I'd like to stress that all of that is 100% my personal opinion. I don't want to make it seem as if I'm asserting that it's indisputable fact, it bugs me when people do that.

Also it's a shame astro will no longer be posting, he provided a lot of really interesting debates and arguments on this forum.

[what]

James says in the In Water ending that he is taking his life so that he and Mary can finally be together. This is in part what makes the ending seem romantic and beautiful. I have to ask, though, does James's statement really mean anything at all considering the context? This is a man who was selfish enough to not only abandon his wife in her greatest time of need, but to go so far as to actually kill her to escape his own guilt and suffering. That action alone shows us what James is willing to do to avoid emotional pain. Of course he would convince himself that the only reason he wants to die is to be with Mary, he doesn't want to face the truth: that he's a coward. I don't buy it. I think he just cared about sparing himself the pain of his own guilt. It's almost like he's disregarding the fact that the whole reason she's dead in the first place is because he brutally murdered her.

Ha, I'm not inclined to be quite so harsh on the guy but you have perfectly described upon the point I was making: he may dress up his suicide as a show of final, eternal romance, and perhaps he even believes it is to some extent, but underneath it, he's merely continuing the same behavior which got him into this mess in the first place.

Also it's a shame astro will no longer be posting, he provided a lot of really interesting debates and arguments on this forum.

I disagreed with him on almost everything, but until he blew up I honestly didn't mind his presence. It is too bad.

[Floodclaw]

tl;dr

Some people believe James offing himself in the lake is romantic and shows his true feelings for Mary, indicating that he has come to terms with what he did, believing that he should join with Mary in the afterlife as repentance.

Some people believe Silent Hill offered a way for James to repent without dying, to accept what he has done and live his life free of guilt (with Laura?)

That's the beauty of the game. You can believe what you want, but that's just it. It's what YOU want. One shouldn't discount any ending, because all of them are valid.

[Charles Phipps]

Some people believe Silent Hill offered a way for James to repent without dying, to accept what he has done and live his life free of guilt (with Laura?)

Yeah, James would have a purpose in life by raising the child he and Mary could have had.

But yes, I think of James' suicide as a way to punish himself without realizing Mary never wanted him to punish himself.

She just wanted him by her side.

[Dr. Robotnik]

For me, the appeal of the In Water ending partially lies in a certain symmetry. You kill, you die. One half cannot live without the other; James and Mary were star-crossed lovers whose lives were destined to end in tragedy. There's a certain sense of justice and bitterness, that no one who wasn't there can ever really understand.

That said, I can't call myself a fanboy of any particular ending at the moment. The "Leave" ending is fascinating in its own way; Eddie went down the road of "Maria", embraced his dark side, and got himself killed. Angela went the "In Water" route and collapsed under her own sorrow. James was the only one who really got it, and found a reason to keep going on with life.

The only problem I have with Leave is that I wonder if Mary would really be that selfless, or if she would want to drag James down with her, and he's just forgiving himself and getting away with it.

[WhiteClaudia]

What I'm confused about, and maybe it's explained somewhere that I haven't looked, but why does Laura go to look for Mary in Brookehaven Hospital... or even, Silent Hill period? It is stated that at no point was Mary staying at Brookehaven. Her and Laura were at St. Jerome's, if I remember correctly. As I think it's stated that Mary was at St. Jerome's, not Brookehaven. Why wouldn't she go back there?

Two, for my second question, I can't remember if Mary ever told Laura about Silent Hill, and it being her special place? Even if Laura knew about Silent Hill, I still don't understand why she went there to look for Mary, if the hospital they knew each other in wasn't in Silent Hill...

Maybe, I've just really confused myself, and someone can clear this up haha.

[NarooN]

Me and Mary talked a lot about Silent Hill. She even showed me all her pictures. She really wanted to come back. That's why I'm here.

Keep in mind that Laura was unaware of Mary's death, so she caught a ride with Eddie by chance and went to Silent Hill because she thought Mary was there.

[Devoured]

And also that Laura had Mary's letter to James which explains why she went to Silent Hill.

Oh yeah and Laura ran away from the hospital because Mary left, so there'd be little logic in her going back there for Mary

[WhiteClaudia]

AGH! Gosh, I completely missed that dialogue from Laura. I think I was just having a derp/confusion moment. Maybe a mini-stroke.

[NarooN]

Lol it's no biggie, we all have those moments from time to time.

[Mothersdecent]

The graves in the labyrinth. Eddie's and Angela's are buried, right? James' grave is still open. Doesn't it seem a little strange that Eddie and Angela's graves are buried,

REVEAL SPOILER

and Eddie dies a few minutes later, and Angela most likely died in the hotel.

James' grave is open, and as we all know, people will die eventually. I think whenever a new batch of people enter the cursed town, the graves are replaced with that of the 'new' batch. The people with the open graves will survive, and people with the buried graves will die. Please don't ask me why Laura's grave isn't there, because I don't know.

The grave is still open because James is still under the influence of the town, it's not until he finds out the truth that he can decide what to do and that would most likely be to kill himself. Eddie and Angela are both aware of their sins, that's why their graves are buried.

[NarooN]

I think the real reason their graves were already buried is not because they were aware of why they were in the town, but because they already "gave in" and succumbed to the darkness in their hearts. By that point. Eddie has already gone off the deep end and Angela has all but given up hope. James is still deluded and doesn't remember the truth at that point.

I also don't believe he would've "most likely" killed himself. He sure does go through a lot of crap believing that he'll find his dead wife somehow, and even tells Angela he'd never kill himself. It seems that one point of the game would be to get any ending *but* In Water, but that's just me. What James "would have" done is just as open-ended as the "conclusion" to the game itself.

[Dr. Robotnik]

He sure does go through a lot of crap believing that he'll find his dead wife somehow, and even tells Angela he'd never kill himself.

I think what's also worth noting is James' tone of voice when he says the line. He actually sounds surprised by the question, much like Murphy when the boy at the orphanage asked him if he killed his son.

[what]

I also don't believe he would've "most likely" killed himself. He sure does go through a lot of crap believing that he'll find his dead wife somehow, and even tells Angela he'd never kill himself. It seems that one point of the game would be to get any ending *but* In Water, but that's just me. What James "would have" done is just as open-ended as the "conclusion" to the game itself.

Spot on.

I also don't think Eddie is aware of his sins, as he does not think he is sinning at all.

[Mothersdecent]

What i meant is that James is the only one who doesn't remember what he did, as opposed to Eddie and Angela. The open grave signifies ignorance, yet the grave is still there meaning he's still a sinner.

[devil hunter]

I don't think open grave is symbolizing ignorance. I think the town itself erased his memory, it gave him a chance to change his fate, rather than commit suicide, which was his original intention. Which makes sense, since he couldn't just forget everything like that, he might blocked his memories, but I don't think that works instantly like that, besides he planned to kill himself, so what's the point of blocking memories?

Actually, the whole labyrinth/prison part, jumping in all those holes reminds me of Edgar Alan Poe novella "Black Cat". The main character of the story kills his wife and hides her body behind the wall in the basement and keeps that a secret. The basement itself symbolizes descending into the mind, the deepest corners of it.
So, maybe stuff with holes in prison/labyrinth are the same thing, James is basically going into the deepest corners of his mind.

@what I think Eddie IS aware of his sins, but he does what he thinks is right, that he should punish the bullies, people who made fun of him his whole life. You might even say that he probably enjoys that, being able to kill his tormentors.