Pazuzu

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Harry Mason Vs. Pyramid Head

Post by Pazuzu on Fri Oct 20, 2017 12:12 am

He could also possibly feel guilt over not saving Lisa during the events of SH1. He would've probably been horrified over seeing what happened to her and harbor a certain feeling of guilt and failure for not being able to save her, and even though Heather is Alessa and Cheryl combined into one being, part of him could also feel like a failure for not being able to get back Cheryl herself. He could well live with that and it could potentially earn him a blip on Pyramid Head's radar. And as others have said, even though he only killed in self-defense, killing another person has to have some heavy psychological and emotional impact on a person who has and that alone could create feelings of darkness within Harry.

The more I think about this, this story would make for a great "lost chapter" game of sorts in SH. Maybe as a comic. A lot can happen in 18 years which is the timeframe between 1 and 3. Who's to say Harry didn't have another run-in with Silent Hill and it's most (in)famous citizen.
 
 
 
 
 
 

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Harry Mason Vs. Pyramid Head

Post by PinentidHead on Fri Oct 20, 2017 7:26 am

^SH is a huge source for spin off poorly explored. Unlike RE that is a small source but heavily explored, and when totally exhausted, Capcom explored SH as well with RE7!

Back to the subject - so I have to kill. Is our society, to kill a person is always surrounded by a nice and convenient fairy tale - like self defense. The story closes the world where to kill is acceptable, since I got a good story to justify. But this won't work in Silent Hill, the fact won't go away. The Silent Hill moral contradicts ours where to kill can even be Justice.

But killing happens, and the difference is how the person deal with the fact. James did that pathetic scene - I killed a human being, than he get up to keep looking for Mary, maybe to kill her again. In SH1, Harry don't even got the time to deal with the facts, he is focused in to save the child. But I think in SH3 (I am getting there again) there is some clues for us, Heather discovers that wasn't easy for Harry the years after Silent Hill events. But he did his own "Leave" ending by creating Heather.

To me this seems like it could be a plausible scenario for Harry to harbor darkness and guilt in his heart. And we all know what that means for Harry…

I agree. It is interesting to discover in SH3 he was not a hero. But would not be like James, Harry was in a different timing, he is a different guy. Maybe he would meet PH and the mailman in the Happy Burger for a nice chat... :lol:

Harry is also "deconstructed" in Shattered Memories that make this upside down RPG - what he did and why. Nothing as a good story to keep the mind on the line.
 
 
 
 
 
 

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Harry Mason Vs. Pyramid Head

Post by Otherworld on Fri Oct 20, 2017 9:43 am

Xuchilbara wrote:
Otherworld wrote:
I understand your point but Heather is obviously a special case, as she is portrayed as the Mother of God. We know this as Vatiel is seen carrying her body away after her death. Plus the otherworld in Silent Hill 3 is derived by Claudia and Heather/Alessa' power. Not by the power of the town.

Image


This is cherry picking.


I beg to differ here. I am not pulling lines here or there out of BoLM. I am quoting what the BoLM says word for word. The book has entire page that is dedicated to the fact that in the 1st 3 works of the series the main constituent of the otherworld differs in each work of the series. Seen here. http://www.silenthillmemories.net/lost_memories/guide/111_en.htm

Simply put, this means that the main component of the otherworld is different in each game.

Complete BoLM quote:

The main constituent of the otherworld differs in each work of the series

Silent Hill]
Due to her severe burns and endless suffering, Alessa's power runs wild. Her agony is manifested and the entire town is swallowed up by the otherworld.

Harry searches for his daughter in the otherworld.

[Silent Hill 2]
Regarding James, who escapes from the crime that he has committed, elements from the depths of his consciousness are manifested. What the power of the town causes to appear before him is an otherworld that is a combination of his delusions and his desire for punishment.

As James acknowledges his crime, the otherworld disappears.

[Silent Hill 3]
The shift to the otherworld that occurs in the shopping mall, among other places, has to do with Claudia. As she recovers her memories, Alessa's influence grows stronger.

Claudia possesses a unique power.


Xuchilbara wrote:Just because Claudia and Alessa have powers, it does not discount the town's power. It doesn't magically go away. The town's unique power is to manifest what is in peoples' hearts. Claudia/Alessa do not necessarily control that. If it disappeared, Alessa would have never been able to influence it in the first place.


I am not discounting the towns power. It obviuosly has to be there for things to happen. I am simply illustrating what is specifically written in the BoLM about the main component of the otherworld in Silent Hill, Silent Hill 2 and Silent Hill 3.

Xuchilbara wrote:(Both in and out of Silent Hill.) The 'sinner' aspect only comes into play when it's not defensible (justifiable) to do that.

Otherworld wrote:If this were the case then why was Angela called? Angela killing her father is seen as murder through the towns "lense" and that act could be seen as even more justifiable than Harry killing cult members.

Image


Heather is specifically described as "genuine" and "innocent" even though she wants to kill Claudia and goes to town to do so. Angela is not described by the creators in such terms, and may have manipulated her father. [Hence "the Seductress"] She also seems to have attacked her father when he was not doing anything to her. We also have to take into account that this isn't an American interpretation.

[Heather also killed more people.]


^This just further illustrates the fact that Heather is a special case and is not in Silent Hill because she was called by the towns power. She is in the otherworld because of her (Alessa') power and Claudia' power.


Xuchilbara wrote:
Otherworld wrote:
Xuchilbara wrote:Also, to be 'called' by the town means being outside the town and drawn to it. Harry would have had similar feelings to James, he did not.


BoLM quote:

Calling
Those who have guilt are summoned.

Due to the appearance of the otherworld on a massive scale in the first game, the town has come to be a place that calls those who hold a profound darkness in their hearts. It seems that people with afflicted minds are easily drawn to the otherworld.

The town calls to those who bear the weight of some crime and shows them what is in their hearts.

The shift to the otherworld that takes place outside the town depends entirely upon a unique power.

The power that absorbs and reflects what people hold in their hearts is established as being exclusive to the town of Silent Hill.


I interpret the above to be "called" is to be called to Silent Hills otherworld. An otherworld that calls to those who hold a profound darkness in their hearts. It is the power of the town causes that absorbs and reflects what people hold in their hearts is established as being exclusive to the town of Silent Hill.

Any shifts to the otherworld outside of town depend on a unique power that Claudia or the pact made to sacrifice the first born in Sheperds Glen have. To be "called" for your sins is to summoned to the otherworld that reflects what people hold in their hearts that is established as being exclusive to the town of Silent Hill by the the power of the town.


All this being said, would Harry actually be called to the otherworld if he went back to Silent Hill before his death Nobody can be sure.

Is it a possibility?

From how I interpret the BoLM quotes above, and with Angela's example tossed into the mix. I believe it is entirely plausible.


Xuchilbara wrote:Except Harry never had any guilt and was never called. You can tout that Heather is a "special case" all day long, but what about Claudia? She specifically killed an innocent man, felt guilt about it, and was not punished like James was.

If Harry went back to the town prior to his death he would have A) Disappeared or died and B) It would be mentioned in the lore as the franchise is called "SILENT HILL" and it would be a major plot point. The original developers are not going to mention anything that is not relevant. This would be spectacularly relevant.

Use Occam's Razor here.


I never said Harry had guilt when he first went to Silent Hill. I also never said he had gone back afterwards. I said that only after he left and killed a cult member that he may have met the criteria to be called. That is all.

It is quite obvious that Heather and Claudia both have power to influence the otherworld. The BoLM specifically states this in the quote I posted above.

BoLM quote:

The main constituent of the otherworld differs in each work of the series.

[Silent Hill 3]
The shift to the otherworld that occurs in the shopping mall, among other places, has to do with Claudia. As she recovers her memories, Alessa's influence grows stronger.

Claudia possesses a unique power.
Last edited by Otherworld on Fri Oct 20, 2017 10:51 am.
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Harry Mason Vs. Pyramid Head

Post by Xuchilbara on Fri Oct 20, 2017 9:53 am

The town's specific functions do NOT differ. The otherworld is custom every game depending on the person. The power of the town still works and Vincent specifically said it was Claudia's nightmare just like Alessa's. So no, "special powers" doesn't make it a "special case". They were never called nor was Harry.

Everyone influences the otherworld. James just did so to a lesser degree. The prisoner's also did this. Think on the evidence presented to you and you will understand why Harry is not a "sinner". The intent is absent.

Also, Eddie never killed anyone and was still labeled a sinner. So INTENT is the function of sin according to the town.
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Post by Otherworld on Fri Oct 20, 2017 11:13 am

Xuchilbara wrote:The town's specific functions do NOT differ. The otherworld is custom every game depending on the person. The power of the town still works and Vincent specifically said it was Claudia's nightmare just like Alessa's. So no, "special powers" doesn't make it a "special case". They were never called nor was Harry.


I agree, they were never called. I also agree that the power of the town is ever present. What I am pointing out is the fact that the BoLM specifically mentions that in all 3 works there are 3 different main constituents of the otherworld. The BoLM goes out of it's way to show this.

Xuchilbara wrote:Everyone influences the otherworld. James just did so to a lesser degree. The prisoner's also did this. Think on the evidence presented to you and you will understand why Harry is not a "sinner". The intent is absent.


If you have a 'unique power" you have way more influence on the otherworld than people that have been called by the towns power That is why the BoLM specifically mentions those powers. Why else would it mention it?

At the time of the 3rd game, Harry may have met the criteria to be called as a "sinner." I have no problem thinking that he doesn't either as I never said anything definitive to that effect. Since you have more knowledge on the subject I will differ to you here. But that still does not change that fact that he may have met the criteria to be called. This is something we will never know.

Xuchilbara wrote:Also, Eddie never killed anyone and was still labeled a sinner. So INTENT is the function of sin according to the town.


I agree that intent is a function of sin. But I would be surprised that it is the only function. After all Sater in Downpour was called because of an accident.

Sater quote:

“ What happened - that was an accident. I didn't mean to hurt nobody. I didn't murder nobody. Murder's a mortal sin; you go to Hell for murder.


Image
Image
 
 
 
 
 

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Harry Mason Vs. Pyramid Head

Post by Pazuzu on Fri Oct 20, 2017 3:58 pm

PinentidHead wrote:^SH is a huge source for spin off poorly explored. Unlike RE that is a small source but heavily explored, and when totally exhausted, Capcom explored SH as well with RE7!

Back to the subject - so I have to kill. Is our society, to kill a person is always surrounded by a nice and convenient fairy tale - like self defense. The story closes the world where to kill is acceptable, since I got a good story to justify. But this won't work in Silent Hill, the fact won't go away. The Silent Hill moral contradicts ours where to kill can even be Justice.

But killing happens, and the difference is how the person deal with the fact. James did that pathetic scene - I killed a human being, than he get up to keep looking for Mary, maybe to kill her again. In SH1, Harry don't even got the time to deal with the facts, he is focused in to save the child. But I think in SH3 (I am getting there again) there is some clues for us, Heather discovers that wasn't easy for Harry the years after Silent Hill events. But he did his own "Leave" ending by creating Heather.

To me this seems like it could be a plausible scenario for Harry to harbor darkness and guilt in his heart. And we all know what that means for Harry…

I agree. It is interesting to discover in SH3 he was not a hero. But would not be like James, Harry was in a different timing, he is a different guy. Maybe he would meet PH and the mailman in the Happy Burger for a nice chat... :lol:

Harry is also "deconstructed" in Shattered Memories that make this upside down RPG - what he did and why. Nothing as a good story to keep the mind on the line.



Also taking into account Harry would've surely had some serious PTSD after the events of SH1. With all he saw and experienced and had to do to survive and find Cheryl (or Heather, rather), he would've surely been haunted by his memories and nightmares of his ordeal in Silent Hill. And back to Lisa, remember when she's pleading with him for him to save her and he pushes her, right before she starts bleeding all over. It's also possible he might feel guilty for that when he looks back and realizes he may have condemned her to the state we see her in near the end of SH1. Now it seems Lisa was already doomed no matter what but Harry wouldn't have known and could thus live with that guilt.
 
 
 
 
 
 

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Post by Xuchilbara on Fri Oct 20, 2017 6:13 pm

Otherworld wrote:
If you have a 'unique power" you have way more influence on the otherworld than people that have been called by the towns power That is why the BoLM specifically mentions those powers. Why else would it mention it?


They do but not in the way that you think. It still functions as it always does.

At the time of the 3rd game, Harry may have met the criteria to be called as a "sinner." I have no problem thinking that he doesn't either as I never said anything definitive to that effect. Since you have more knowledge on the subject I will differ to you here. But that still does not change that fact that he may have met the criteria to be called. This is something we will never know.


No, he does not.

Xuchilbara wrote:Also, Eddie never killed anyone and was still labeled a sinner. So INTENT is the function of sin according to the town.


I agree that intent is a function of sin. But I would be surprised that it is the only function. After all Sater in Downpour was called because of an accident.

Sater quote:

“ What happened - that was an accident. I didn't mean to hurt nobody. I didn't murder nobody. Murder's a mortal sin; you go to Hell for murder.


Image
[/quote]

My problem with the newer games such as DP, and this is not your fault or anything, is inconsistent writing that goes against the lore of the originals and BOLM. (Such as trying to tie Samael to the incubus, when it was originally fanon and the first game never even insinuated anything was there. Or trying to say Flauros is Alessa's image of God in Origins.) It's not that I don't consider them canon, it's just when debating what we have I take them more with a grain of salt. (Since we're really just covering first four mainly.)
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Post by Xuchilbara on Fri Oct 20, 2017 6:13 pm

Otherworld wrote:
If you have a 'unique power" you have way more influence on the otherworld than people that have been called by the towns power That is why the BoLM specifically mentions those powers. Why else would it mention it?


They do but not in the way that you think. It still functions as it always does.

At the time of the 3rd game, Harry may have met the criteria to be called as a "sinner." I have no problem thinking that he doesn't either as I never said anything definitive to that effect. Since you have more knowledge on the subject I will differ to you here. But that still does not change that fact that he may have met the criteria to be called. This is something we will never know.


No, he does not.

Xuchilbara wrote:Also, Eddie never killed anyone and was still labeled a sinner. So INTENT is the function of sin according to the town.


I agree that intent is a function of sin. But I would be surprised that it is the only function. After all Sater in Downpour was called because of an accident.

Sater quote:

“ What happened - that was an accident. I didn't mean to hurt nobody. I didn't murder nobody. Murder's a mortal sin; you go to Hell for murder.


Image
[/quote]

My problem with the newer games such as DP, and this is not your fault or anything, is inconsistent writing that goes against the lore of the originals and BOLM. (Such as trying to tie Samael to the incubus, when it was originally fanon and the first game never even insinuated anything was there. Or trying to say Flauros is Alessa's image of God in Origins.) It's not that I don't consider them canon, it's just when debating what we have I take them more with a grain of salt. (Since we're really just covering first four mainly.)
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Post by Otherworld on Fri Oct 20, 2017 7:51 pm

Xuchilbara wrote:
Otherworld wrote:
If you have a 'unique power" you have way more influence on the otherworld than people that have been called by the towns power That is why the BoLM specifically mentions those powers. Why else would it mention it?


They do but not in the way that you think. It still functions as it always does.


The powers are separate, and having a unique power gives that person much more influence on the otherworld. This is why BoLM mentions it.


Xuchilbara wrote:
Otherworld wrote:At the time of the 3rd game, Harry may have met the criteria to be called as a "sinner." I have no problem thinking that he doesn't either as I never said anything definitive to that effect. Since you have more knowledge on the subject I will differ to you here. But that still does not change that fact that he may have met the criteria to be called. This is something we will never know.


No, he does not.


Ok, I will not argue that he will. My argument is that he fits the criteria.

Xuchilbara wrote:Also, Eddie never killed anyone and was still labeled a sinner. So INTENT is the function of sin according to the town.

Otherworld wrote: I agree that intent is a function of sin. But I would be surprised that it is the only function. After all Sater in Downpour was called because of an accident.

Sater quote:

“ What happened - that was an accident. I didn't mean to hurt nobody. I didn't murder nobody. Murder's a mortal sin; you go to Hell for murder.


Image

My problem with the newer games such as DP, and this is not your fault or anything, is inconsistent writing that goes against the lore of the originals and BOLM. (Such as trying to tie Samael to the incubus, when it was originally fanon and the first game never even insinuated anything was there. Or trying to say Flauros is Alessa's image of God in Origins.) It's not that I don't consider them canon, it's just when debating what we have I take them more with a grain of salt. (Since we're really just covering first four mainly.)


Understood. And that makes perfect sense. But that is not the way I look at the series. The BoLM and the first four games are the foundation of the franchise. That being said, I cannot overlook material that is canon to the franchise. So I look at the series as a whole.

Of course there are inconsistentcys, and that is truly unfortunate. But my interpretation of the franchise has to include every addition to the franchise that is said to be canon by the creators.
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Post by Xuchilbara on Fri Oct 20, 2017 9:09 pm

Yeah, I get you. I agree that it is canon. I am just saying that BOLM has no official translation and Konami seems to ignore it when they hire other devs to make the games outside of Japan. But I don't know, that's another thread for another time.
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Post by Pazuzu on Fri Oct 20, 2017 9:26 pm

If Harry is to have his own unique version of Pyramid Head as James did, how would his differ? We're assuming Silent Hill has created it's own PH solely for Harry, so in what ways would Harry's PH stand apart from others? I'd imagine he wouldn't quite be the same as the PH from SH2 and rightfully so as the SH2 PH is James' version.
 
 
 
 
 
 

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Post by Pazuzu on Sat Oct 21, 2017 11:17 pm

Another aspect of this I've thought of, is PH ever typically employed for revenge? He'll punish those with certain darkness within them or who carry guilt over a terrible trangression, but that's not quite the same as revenge. I was thinking perhaps SH or the cult could've employed PH to get back at Harry for him essentially ruining the ritual and killing cult members. Sort of like a hitman, but that's not quite how PH works.

Again, just trying to look at things from every angle to think of plausible ways this scenario could go down.
 
 
 
 
 
 

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Post by Xuchilbara on Sat Oct 21, 2017 11:20 pm

PH in 2 is a manifestation of guilt and James's desire to be punished.
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Post by Pazuzu on Sat Oct 21, 2017 11:39 pm

Harry could well feel guilt for not being able to save Lisa in the first game as well as not getting back Cheryl as he knew her, but the question as to whether that would lead to him feeling like he deserved punishment, that's all up in the air. I think he'd want to keep on going to help raise Heather/Alessa/Cheryl, but I don't think it's out of the realm of possibility to think he could live with guilt over the years over failing to save Lisa and Cheryl, and possibly Cybil as well if we take either bad ending into account.
 
 
 
 
 
 

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Post by PinentidHead on Sun Oct 22, 2017 3:36 pm

The guilt of James is an otherworld different from any guilt Harry could have. To have violent thoughts is a normal human feature - we are a violent species. Also the feeling of failing, the responsibility etc., all "normal" reactions of Harry. James is a murderer, he killed by luxury and created a convenient story to justify the crime. He is in the borderline of recoverable. Harry was in the borderline of PTSD as you said.
 
 
 
 
 
 

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Post by Otherworld on Mon Oct 23, 2017 8:56 am

PinentidHead wrote:The guilt of James is an otherworld different from any guilt Harry could have. To have violent thoughts is a normal human feature - we are a violent species. Also the feeling of failing, the responsibility etc., all "normal" reactions of Harry. James is a murderer, he killed by luxury and created a convenient story to justify the crime. He is in the borderline of recoverable. Harry was in the borderline of PTSD as you said.


Although Harry may fit the criteria of being called, James has much more weight to bare for his crimes. I also feel that Harry was a lot more mentally stable than James, and James definitely was not.

BoLM quote:

It seems that people with afflicted minds are easily drawn to the otherworld.


We know James was going to end his life in Silent Hill. We know he had a issue with alcoholism, As a candidate for being called,James just ticks all the boxes, and that is why he ends up in the otherworld.
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Post by Royal Fizzbin on Mon Oct 23, 2017 12:58 pm

It seems like probably most of us at least agree that Harry ever having crossed paths with PH is highly improbable for various reasons. But… if we were to suspend that disbelief and imagine the most likely scenario where such an event would happen, what would that scenario look like?

I still contend that the only two (main) games where we actually see PH or a PH-esk being is SH2 and Homecoming. And that the simplest way for Harry to encounter PH would be for him to happen to be around during the events of SH2 and slip into James otherworld. Or in an alternate reality where Harry was still alive and around during the events of Homecoming, and they might cross paths then.

Also, Harry killing a cult member some time after the events of SH1 keeps being brought up. I don’t know, so I’ll ask, what were the actual circumstances of that killing? Do we know the details of that or is it just a brief reference that we are left to fill in the blanks on?
 
 
 
 
 
 

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Post by Otherworld on Mon Oct 23, 2017 1:56 pm

Royal Fizzbin wrote:It seems like probably most of us at least agree that Harry ever having crossed paths with PH is highly improbable for various reasons. But… if we were to suspend that disbelief and imagine the most likely scenario where such an event would happen, what would that scenario look like?


I'd like to think it may simulate Alex's experience in HC.

Royal Fizzbin wrote:I still contend that the only two (main) games where we actually see PH or a PH-esk being is SH2 and Homecoming. And that the simplest way for Harry to encounter PH would be for him to happen to be around during the events of SH2 and slip into James otherworld. Or in an alternate reality where Harry was still alive and around during the events of Homecoming, and they might cross paths then.


If we are specically speaking about the PH manifested by James subconscious I do not think Harry would encounter him as I believe that nobody other than James can see him.

Royal Fizzbin wrote:Also, Harry killing a cult member some time after the events of SH1 keeps being brought up. I don’t know, so I’ll ask, what were the actual circumstances of that killing? Do we know the details of that or is it just a brief reference that we are left to fill in the blanks on?


The wiki has the below information.

Portland and murder case

After escaping Silent Hill, Harry lived an ordinary life in Portland with his new adopted daughter. Harry was unsure about raising the baby, and considered killing, strangling and abandoning her because he suspected the baby was a reincarnation of Alessa, and Alessa was responsible for taking Cheryl away from him. Harry's suspicions were ultimately correct, although it is unknown if Harry realized that part of that baby also contained Cheryl's reincarnated soul. Regardless of whether or not the baby was Alessa's reincarnation, Harry ultimately decided to forgive Alessa and raise the baby.

He also decided to name the baby Cheryl again, presumably because Jodie chose it and he wanted to honor her decision, as well as his previous adopted daughter. However, he later felt this name was a mistake since at the time, Harry only thought of her only as a replacement for his lost Cheryl.

The religious organization of Silent Hill, the Order, had planned to abduct the reincarnated Cheryl/Alessa and proceeded to track her down. Five years after the events of the first game, Harry killed a cult member in self-defense. The cult member attempted to kidnap the reincarnated Cheryl/Alessa. Harry was acquitted in court and relocated to another town to hide incognito.

To ensure his adopted daughter's safety, he dyed her hair from brunette to blonde and renamed her from Cheryl to Heather. Afterwards, he eventually settled in the Daisy Villa Apartments with her. Despite feeling confused and frustrated at who Heather could be, Harry was determined to raise her.
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Harry Mason Vs. Pyramid Head

Post by Pazuzu on Mon Oct 23, 2017 5:23 pm

The fact Harry entertained the thought of killing Cheryl/Heather could also earn him a blip on Pyramid Head's radar. Granted he only thought about it but still, to think of killing your own child is terrible even if you don't act on it. Much like how PH in SH2 was unique to James and manufactured by Silent Hill for him, Silent Hill would likely do the same for Harry, manufacturing it's own version of PH unique to Harry.
 
 
 
 
 
 

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Post by Otherworld on Mon Oct 23, 2017 7:09 pm

Pazuzu wrote:The fact Harry entertained the thought of killing Cheryl/Heather could also earn him a blip on Pyramid Head's radar. Granted he only thought about it but still, to think of killing your own child is terrible even if you don't act on it. Much like how PH in SH2 was unique to James and manufactured by Silent Hill for him, Silent Hill would likely do the same for Harry, manufacturing it's own version of PH unique to Harry.


In Silent Hill 2, Eddie is called because of intent. He never killed anyone.
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